Manual de la Torre Method

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  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,963 ✭✭


    https://youtu.be/ZoXZYjPbUZE



    19:28-20:28



    For some of you having problems with how this starts with the takeaway please watch 1 minute of this segment over and over. Try all 3 combinations he talks about and notice how each one feels. This has been the biggest eye opener for me and how to get there. For the longest time I started the swing turning my shoulders having both arms basically locked out to "keep the triangle". When I first tried the mdlt swing. I had left hand dominance every time. I think it was because my right arm was too straight and not reacting. Over time I got better, but my right arm led instead of my hand. Which would start off fine, but then around halfway back my left would use my right as a pivot point and lay off.



    When I watch Manuel swing, or in the other video when he is showing the student the feeling of the swing, I notice their right elbow. How it almost bends instantly from the start. When I allow that to happen my right hand can take the club back with my left on plane. It has the feeling of getting the club up waaay faster then before. Amazing feeling and a freedom with the club I've never had.




    "If the right hand dominates it is OK. If the right arm dominates, it is not OK." "The club **** me and **** my wrists."
  • rwc356rwc356 Chicago, IllinoisMembers Posts: 324 ✭✭
    After reading the book twice and watching a number of the videos on-line, I have a question about the backswing. Due to several reasons, I can only get a club back to about 9-10 O'clock. Getting the club up over the shoulder just isn't going to happen.



    The MDLT swing concepts make a lot of sense and I'm clearly hitting better short irons - but really having problems with the Driver - 5 iron swings. With the limited backswing I feel my turn is limited as well as a result I seem to be out of sync (hard to explain). Any good hints on how to handle these longer clubs with a limited back swing.
    Just an older guy with 7 or 8 clubs and a MacKenzie Walker bag
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,791 ✭✭
    Positions aren't that important. Use the both hands and swing the club back in the direction of your right shoulder, allowing your body to respond the way your body responds. Everyone's body responds differently so don't try to achieve some model position. My body response has changed over the about 50 years I have followed Manny because my body has changes.



    To get that swing longer as a long term goal some flexibility work might help, remaining very relaxed as you swing will help, and keep the left elbow soft, not locked out.



    So long as you are permitting your body to respond to the motion of the club you won't be out of sync. It is the deliberate movement of your body while swinging the club that gets you out of sync.



    Steve
  • Puttersaurus RexPuttersaurus Rex one swing at a time Members Posts: 549 ✭✭
    Read this yesterday, and worked on it last night. Something clicked with "leading with the hands in takeaway", "lead with left shoulder/upper arm in downswing", and "swing the club from/to the target in a circle". I feel like I am concentrating on the club more than my body, and that was helpful. I still need to clear my hips out of the way, or disaster strikes.



    Thank you for the thoughtful questions and replies in this thread!
    I don't always play minimal, but when I do:
    Driver, 5 wood, 4 hybrid, 6, 8, PW, 54, putter
  • rwc356rwc356 Chicago, IllinoisMembers Posts: 324 ✭✭
    juststeve wrote:


    Positions aren't that important. Use the both hands and swing the club back in the direction of your right shoulder, allowing your body to respond the way your body responds. Everyone's body responds differently so don't try to achieve some model position. My body response has changed over the about 50 years I have followed Manny because my body has changes.



    To get that swing longer as a long term goal some flexibility work might help, remaining very relaxed as you swing will help, and keep the left elbow soft, not locked out.



    So long as you are permitting your body to respond to the motion of the club you won't be out of sync. It is the deliberate movement of your body while swinging the club that gets you out of sync.



    Steve




    Steve



    Thanks for the explanation - your participation sure makes this topic even more beneficial.



    Bob
    Just an older guy with 7 or 8 clubs and a MacKenzie Walker bag
  • EdStrakerEdStraker Members Posts: 50 ✭✭
    I just started reading De La Torre's book recently and wish I had read this years ago. My round today was 2 over on a par 70 course. This method is much easier on the body. After walking 18 holes today with temps in the mid-80s, I felt like I could have played 9 more holes.
  • SirFuegoSirFuego Members Posts: 192 ✭✭
    edited Jun 14, 2018 #938
    I bought the e-book a month or so ago and I'm quite impressed by how simple, but effective, MDLT's method is. It has SIGNIFICANTLY reduced the tension in my swing. It's also the first time in a while where I'm comfortable enough to play "golf" instead of "golf swing" on the golf course. Even when I'm having an "off" day, the swing is still manageable and I don't feel like I need to tinker until I get to the range.



    It's unfortunate that it makes references to the "old" ball flight laws (which IMO doesn't detract at all from the book), so that will probably turn off a number of people. That's not a knock against him, because that's what instructors taught until recently. And of course with his passing, only time will tell if his instruction gets buried or if someone is able to make his teachings more mainstream beyond this and a few other threads on GolfWRX.



    I've never been satisfied with how the golf grip is typically taught. MDLT's concept of a balanced grip (and how to check if the grip is balanced) was pretty eye opening. With it I finally feel like I can just let the forearms, wrists, and hands react to the downswing and square up the clubhead automatically.



    The idea of placing (or throwing) the club over my trail shoulder sounds so simplistic, but as long as you do it without tension in your body, it works really well for me. I've even experimented with "throwing" the club closer to my neck or the outer part of my trail shoulder. As long as I stay relaxed, I found that the weight of the club just causes my arms to end up in the correct place and my body to turn in the correct way.



    Same thing of throwing the (upper) arms at the target. This helps keeps the forearms, wrists, and fingers relaxed and with a balanced grip, the club just squares up nicely. When I watch myself, I do still move my hips first despite there being no conscious attempt for me to do so. I also have no idea how to describe how I start the downswing, because I just start it when it "feels" right.



    The only thing I had issues with was "standing up" a bit in the backswing and "lunging" in the downswing. I've been focused on keeping my trail knee like a bent tree trunk and that seems to work really well for me to stay more centered and also gives me a more powerful "throw" of my arms in the downswing.
  • chippa13chippa13 Members Posts: 2,289 ✭✭
    juststeve wrote:


    Positions aren't that important. Use the both hands and swing the club back in the direction of your right shoulder, allowing your body to respond the way your body responds. Everyone's body responds differently so don't try to achieve some model position. My body response has changed over the about 50 years I have followed Manny because my body has changes.



    To get that swing longer as a long term goal some flexibility work might help, remaining very relaxed as you swing will help, and keep the left elbow soft, not locked out.



    So long as you are permitting your body to respond to the motion of the club you won't be out of sync. It is the deliberate movement of your body while swinging the club that gets you out of sync.



    Steve




    First time I've checked this thread in a while but this post couldn't be more timely. I hit the range for the first time this year a couple of weeks ago and the first bunch of strikes were just bad. Then I reminded myself to let the hands start the move back with the body just reacting to that and suddenly everything started falling into place again. I love the simplicity of the parts of the method that I've stolen out of this thread.
  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    Really interesting lesson with Manuel. Watch at the 20:00 mark, the "cup" drill. Very counterintuitive because you would think it makes you steep. That is the first thing the student says as well. Because of the drill, the student starts to eventually get the concept of swinging the whole club to the target.



  • OwlyOwly Members Posts: 15
    edited Jun 16, 2018 #941
    Whoever bumped this, thank you.



    The 'hands' backswing, 'upper arms' to target swing thought has helped more me than anything while still keeping it simple. This has taken away a lot of my hit impulse, goat humping, casting, being off balanced, etc..



    Not even sure if I fully got the feel right, but whatever I'm doing right now is doing wonders at the range.



    The shaft feels 2x farther ahead then the ball, but every-time I do my perception of the MDLT swing thought I come through with a perfect follow-through and a straight, long ball.



    My driver still isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than it used to be. I'm actually miss with some hooks now, which never happened before. Also not falling off balance as much.



    This is great, buying the book.



    EDIT:



    I've always tried to steer/push the ball. My big flaw has been never releasing on my driver...legs get ahead of arms...game over (pull/slice). This has really helped me release on the driver.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • OwlyOwly Members Posts: 15
    One thing I'm thinking of...



    In the Arm Swing Illusion concept, the arms pretty much stays in front of your chest...but it may feel 'behind' you. This is really emphasized on the backswing.



    Regarding the follow through, I've always been afraid of throwing my arms in a circle directly at the target...because I think that I won't have the 'stock' follow through....i.e. my arms will be too far right (from a right handers POV). But since your body rotates, the 'throwing in a circle' directly at the target, at least for me, has given me the perfect follow-through. In sum, the 'feel isn't real' and ASI concepts apply in the follow-through too.



    Maybe this swing concept only works for me since I have a tendency to fade/slice...thinking out loud
  • OwlyOwly Members Posts: 15
    The honeymoon continues...



    'Swing with the upper arms in a circle towards the target' is the best swing thought I've ever had.



    The 'hands takeaway' is still something I'm not sure if i have 100% right...but I feel like I don't have to worry about it to make solid contact. Even if I don't have the perfect position on the takeaway, the results are always good.



    I picked up golf again this past December; spending countless, fruitless hours trying to perfect model positions. This feels so easy, and I feel like I can take a 1/4 backswing and still get the ball where it needs to go.



    The release feels so early. Whenever I swing, the club feels 'somewhere out there.' There's always a bit of hesitation...'no way the club-head will make solid contact.' It happens fast, and then I end up in a balanced follow-through position, with my eyes on a long, high and straight ball-flight.



    As someone who has battled with (1) an overactive lower-body and (2) trying to steer the ball (which makes me OTT) -- this has been the perfect swing thought for me.



    This has been my personal experience. And I'm sure it's 'too good to be true' for everyone, but I'm so happy I came across this.
  • SirFuegoSirFuego Members Posts: 192 ✭✭
    Owly wrote:
    The 'hands takeaway' is still something I'm not sure if i have 100% right...but I feel like I don't have to worry about it to make solid contact. Even if I don't have the perfect position on the takeaway, the results are always good.




    I have no idea if this is a "MDLT-approved" visual, but I think of the hands takeaway as if you are throwing a bag of laundry (or a bindle -- the bag on a stick you typically associate with a hobo) as high as you can over your trail shoulder. You can probably experiment on the location over your shoulder you try to "throw" to (anywhere in between the trail side of your neck to the outer shoulder), I get the best results as if I'm "throwing" the club as close to the side of my neck as possible. Of course that's just a feel, so I might actually be throwing it over my armpit or somewhere similar, so YMMV.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,791 ✭✭
    SirFuego wrote:

    Owly wrote:
    The 'hands takeaway' is still something I'm not sure if i have 100% right...but I feel like I don't have to worry about it to make solid contact. Even if I don't have the perfect position on the takeaway, the results are always good.




    I have no idea if this is a "MDLT-approved" visual, but I think of the hands takeaway as if you are throwing a bag of laundry (or a bindle -- the bag on a stick you typically associate with a hobo) as high as you can over your trail shoulder. You can probably experiment on the location over your shoulder you try to "throw" to (anywhere in between the trail side of your neck to the outer shoulder), I get the best results as if I'm "throwing" the club as close to the side of my neck as possible. Of course that's just a feel, so I might actually be throwing it over my armpit or somewhere similar, so YMMV.




    Not a bad image since the sense of throwing the club will provide you with enough momentum to elicit a proper response from the body. I do worry however about the idea of throwing the club "as high as you can" over the trail shoulder. Doing that creates the risk of expanding your swing radius which is bound to lead to inconsistency. You want the radius of your swing to remain as constant as possible.



    Steve
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,791 ✭✭
    Owly:



    Glad you are having success but be cautious of thinking of what your arms are doing rather than what the club is doing. It's all about how the club moves.



    Steve
  • OwlyOwly Members Posts: 15
    edited Jun 19, 2018 #947
    juststeve wrote:


    Owly:



    Glad you are having success but be cautious of thinking of what your arms are doing rather than what the club is doing. It's all about how the club moves.



    Steve




    It's easy for me to imagine what the club is doing on shorter irons and shorter takeaways.



    But in my driver takeaway, with my wrists hinged and rotated, it's hard to visualize the club.



    Do you just imagine the wrist hinge and arm rotation isn't there? I think I'm imagining the club lower in the swing plane (since my hands don't feel that high), but in reality the wrist hinge and arm rotation are putting the club higher in the swing circle. I guess maybe I need to emphasize the upper arms swinging the club from higher in the swing plane -- sorry if this isn't that clear, a little confused.



    Book is coming in the mail tomorrow. This has really simplified and helped my game -- I have a very repeatable short takeaway driver swing that I can find fairways with now (with respectable distance), but would love to be able to reach my potential and have a more normal takeaway.
  • WILDTHINGWILDTHING Banned Posts: 621 ✭✭
    I actually like this video which sort of explains why the 'intent of swinging the club to a target' moves you , not the other way around.



    To get your subconscious to do this automatically is the difficult part because we have time to consciously think (and worry about the outcome) during the golf swing and this instantly switches off our subconscious from doing what it does best.



    [media]
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,791 ✭✭
    I really like this demonstration because although Saunders describes what she is doing in Ernest Jones language, swinging the club head with the hands, you can plainly see that she is not swinging the club head independently of the rest of the club. She is swinging the whole club through impact.



    After reading the Ernest Jones book I asked Manny if Jones was teaching a flip. He said by no means was Jones teaching a flip, but that he Manny thought the terminology Jones used, swinging the club head with the hands, could encourage independent movement of the club head which could lead to a flip. That was the main reason Manny deviated from Jones by teaching students to swing the whole club toward the target.



    Vivien Saunders demonstrates that even those who think of the club head can swing the whole club toward the target without flipping.



    Steve
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,791 ✭✭
    Owly wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    Owly:



    Glad you are having success but be cautious of thinking of what your arms are doing rather than what the club is doing. It's all about how the club moves.



    Steve




    It's easy for me to imagine what the club is doing on shorter irons and shorter takeaways.



    But in my driver takeaway, with my wrists hinged and rotated, it's hard to visualize the club.



    Do you just imagine the wrist hinge and arm rotation isn't there? I think I'm imagining the club lower in the swing plane (since my hands don't feel that high), but in reality the wrist hinge and arm rotation are putting the club higher in the swing circle. I guess maybe I need to emphasize the upper arms swinging the club from higher in the swing plane -- sorry if this isn't that clear, a little confused.



    Book is coming in the mail tomorrow. This has really simplified and helped my game -- I have a very repeatable short takeaway driver swing that I can find fairways with now (with respectable distance), but would love to be able to reach my potential and have a more normal takeaway.




    I don't think about wrist hinge and arm rotation. I only think about swinging the club head over my trail shoulder. The wrist hinge and rotation are a necessary reaction ifI am to get the club where I want it.



    Steve
  • chippa13chippa13 Members Posts: 2,289 ✭✭
    I pre-hinge and rotate for my practice swings so the only feeling ingrained is the club head over the trail shoulder.
  • baudibaudi Members Posts: 653 ✭✭
    edited Jun 21, 2018 #952
    Question here for serious golf swing instructors/tinkerers concerning MDLT.

    MDLT is absolutely convinced that the weight should not be transferred to the back foot in the back swing. The weight should be maintained equally divided until after impact and then the centrifugall force will transfer the weight to the front foot.



    So how should this be achieved? My arms ar heavy and in front at the start and move to the right during my back swing.

    I build up pressure in the right foot- someway somehow I shifted weight.

    What does Mr. de la Torre want specifically?
  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    baudi wrote:


    Question here for serious golf swing instructors/tinkerers concerning MDLT.

    MDLT is absolutely convinced that the weight should not be transferred to the back foot in the back swing. The weight should be maintained equally divided until after impact and then the centrifugall force will transfer the weight to the front foot.



    So how should this be achieved? My arms ar heavy and in front at the start and move to the right during my back swing.

    I build up pressure in the right foot- someway somehow I shifted weight.

    What does Mr. de la Torre want specifically?




    He writes in his book that he prefers people to stay centered because it is too hard for most people to get back to the left side in a consistent and repeatable manner. When you swing the club head with your hands over your right shoulder in the back swing it is actually quite easy to stay centered.
  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    Very happy that I discovered Manuel de la Torre and this thread. Special thanks to Steve for all the MDLT wisdom!



    No more thoughts about shallowing, squatting, jumping, early extension, flipping, wrist angles, forearm rotation, RIT, LOP, sequencing and the list goes on. Really confused myself. Could not hit driver for a year.



    Now, I am hitting driver with pure confidence again and shot 6 subsequent rounds in the 70's. Such incredible freedom. My body loves it as well. It does need some practice on the range and there are a few minor other details but I basically now only focus on this one sentence from his book:
  • baudibaudi Members Posts: 653 ✭✭
    Thanks for your answer. Not what I was looking for though. I guess it is a matter of interpretation.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,791 ✭✭
    baudi wrote:


    Question here for serious golf swing instructors/tinkerers concerning MDLT.

    MDLT is absolutely convinced that the weight should not be transferred to the back foot in the back swing. The weight should be maintained equally divided until after impact and then the centrifugall force will transfer the weight to the front foot.



    So how should this be achieved? My arms ar heavy and in front at the start and move to the right during my back swing.

    I build up pressure in the right foot- someway somehow I shifted weight.

    What does Mr. de la Torre want specifically?




    Keeping your weight equal, right and left, until impact,serves two purposes. First and foremost it promotes a steady swing center. When you shift weight to the rear foot in the back swing you will almost always shift your swing center away from the target as well. Do that and you need to figure out how to shift the swing center forward, when to do9 it and how much. The shifting swing center is a reason for inconsistency.



    Second, as Golfbeat said, if your remain equally balanced at the end of the back swing the move into the left side become automatic in the forward swing.



    With regard to the weight of the arms, it is proper to ignore their weight since they are not shifting in any real sense but rather rotating around the fixed swing center. They no more imperil the stationary condition of the swing center than the club does as it swing around the swing center.



    How should you accomplish this? Manny would say that having told you what to do, maintain equal weight distribution until impact, It's up to you to figure out how to do it which will always be a matter of individual feelings.



    Steve
  • baudibaudi Members Posts: 653 ✭✭
    edited Jun 22, 2018 #957
    Thanks, was waiting for your response. The description backs this picture which cleared the theoretical issue. It is all about terms.



    All I see is a coiled pivot. Which has a lot of ground reaction force. In terms of mass I am sure the downward pressure in the right leg has gone up. Others may refer to this action as a proper weight shift.

    (def. of weight is the force of mass)



    In the same vid Mr. de la Torre also demonstrates what he calls a shift. (not this picture) which is hopefully not taught anymore (if it ever was)



    Case closed.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,791 ✭✭
    To be complete, while Manny taught that the weight remained equal on each foot right and left, he would agree that the distribution changes on each foot individually. At address the weight is flat on each foot, in the manner [it would be if you were just standing erect. As the back swing progresses the weight on the front foot moves toward the ball of the foot, the weight on the rear foot toward the heel. You may be able to see that in the picture above, but I have seen it illustrated better. Mind you there is nothing deliberate about this shift, it is just a natural response.



    Steve
  • hartman29hartman29 Members Posts: 76 ✭✭
    Been reading along since this thread got bumped: is there a video of Manuel’s weight on a string drill someplace? I’m a fan of Shawn Clement and he advocates a ball on a string, which in theory would be similar but I’ve struggled getting that concept. I’m hoping if I see Manuel’s something will click. I love his simple swing concepts and they seem to work for me on the range, will put into play Sunday if the forecast changes.



    Thanks in advance.
  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    I am just in shock how well this simple method works. From the top of the swing just throw the club to the target using both the right and left humerus. I think this is not too dissimilar to what Monte teaches. I think he adjusted his terminology (or clarified) from getting the right elbow forward to getting the right humerus forward. MDLT wants both upper arms forward. Maybe this makes it work for me. Not only the right humerus forward but also the left. Food for thought.
  • The SheepdogThe Sheepdog Lay me down in the tall grass and let me do my stuff Members Posts: 431 ✭✭
    Golfbeat wrote:


    I am just in shock how well this simple method works. From the top of the swing just throw the club to the target using both the right and left humerus. I think this is not too dissimilar to what Monte teaches. I think he adjusted his terminology (or clarified) from getting the right elbow forward to getting the right humerus forward. MDLT wants both upper arms forward. Maybe this makes it work for me. Not only the right humerus forward but also the left. Food for thought.




    I couldn't agree more. I spent years incorporating so many different swing thoughts and teaching methods into my game that I eventually imploded. Paralysis by analysis. Came across MDLT method thanks to this forum 3 years ago and it has saved me. As Steve has mentioned throughout, the key is to forget all other methods and follow Manny's teachings exclusively. It has completely simplified the swing for me and quieted my mind. My favourite aspect of this method is that when things start to go astray, I just go back to the basic principle - no band-aids.
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