Manual de la Torre Method

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  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,960 ✭✭
    I ordered and have used the Whippy Tempomaster. Oh boy it is a ton of fun. Certainly in a different league than the orange whip in terms of weight and flex.



    Question for Steve, what is your intentions/swing thoughts when transitioning from the whippy tempomaster to using a regular club?
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,788 ✭✭
    The Pearl wrote:


    I ordered and have used the Whippy Tempomaster. Oh boy it is a ton of fun. Certainly in a different league than the orange whip in terms of weight and flex.



    Question for Steve, what is your intentions/swing thoughts when transitioning from the whippy tempomaster to using a regular club?




    Be patient and gradual acceleration.



    Steve
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,960 ✭✭
    juststeve wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    I ordered and have used the Whippy Tempomaster. Oh boy it is a ton of fun. Certainly in a different league than the orange whip in terms of weight and flex.



    Question for Steve, what is your intentions/swing thoughts when transitioning from the whippy tempomaster to using a regular club?




    Be patient and gradual acceleration.



    Steve




    Thanks! I can see that as being the way to go.
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    edited Feb 21, 2019 1:58pm #1055
    Just took a lesson with John Hayes, after spending about a week reading about Manuel. The first day was shank fest. I had to completely let go of any previous thoughts or feelings. Then suddenly the ball started flying beautifully and the swing started to feel effortless. All the grip adjustments he suggests make perfect sense. It was hard for me to place the Vs pointing straight up but once i got used to it the the palms facing each other made sense... and the right PINKIE just resting over my left index finger was an aha moment. Cant go back now. And the best part, whenever my mind gets ahead of me and I start tweaking things, compensating, etc... all I have to do is think of Manuel saying: “take it back with your hands, put it here (above right shoulder) then take it to here (pointing to target toe up). Easy” and the swing gets fixed and back to normal.

    The hardest part right now is understanding the concept of “swinging with your arms” and the feel of it.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,788 ✭✭


    Just took a lesson with John Hayes, after spending about a week reading about Manuel. The first day was shank fest. I had to completely let go of any previous thoughts or feelings. Then suddenly the ball started flying beautifully and the swing started to feel effortless. All the grip adjustments he suggests make perfect sense. It was hard for me to place the Vs pointing straight up but once i got used to it the the palms facing each other made sense... and the right PINKIE just resting over my left index finger was an aha moment. Cant go back now. And the best part, whenever my mind gets ahead of me and I start tweaking things, compensating, etc... all I have to do is think of Manuel saying: “take it back with your hands, put it here (above right shoulder) then take it to here (pointing to target toe up). Easy” and the swing gets fixed and back to normal.

    The hardest part right now is understanding the concept of “swinging with your arms” and the feel of it.




    If you are getting the club back to the ball you are already using your arms to do it. Manny demonstrated many times that to move the club from over the trail shoulder back to the ball the arms must be used. It can't be done with the hands or the legs or the shoulders or the core, it can only be done with the arms. The good news therefore is that you are already using your arms. The key for you is to use JUST YOUR ARMS eliminating interference from other parts of your body, most often the hands. Subtraction, not addition.



    A drill that Manny gave me when like this;



    1. Assume a proper address position with the club head in the center of the stance; A ball is optional.



    2. Using both hands swing the club over the trail shoulder;



    3. Now, using your arms to do it, simply return the whole club to its address position. Slow not fast. Accuracy in placing the club back in the address position is the ticket.



    Repeat the drill until you think you will die of boredom and you will be surprised how much your ball striking will improve when you go back to hitting balls.



    Steve
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    juststeve wrote:


    Just took a lesson with John Hayes, after spending about a week reading about Manuel. The first day was shank fest. I had to completely let go of any previous thoughts or feelings. Then suddenly the ball started flying beautifully and the swing started to feel effortless. All the grip adjustments he suggests make perfect sense. It was hard for me to place the Vs pointing straight up but once i got used to it the the palms facing each other made sense... and the right PINKIE just resting over my left index finger was an aha moment. Cant go back now. And the best part, whenever my mind gets ahead of me and I start tweaking things, compensating, etc... all I have to do is think of Manuel saying: “take it back with your hands, put it here (above right shoulder) then take it to here (pointing to target toe up). Easy” and the swing gets fixed and back to normal.

    The hardest part right now is understanding the concept of “swinging with your arms” and the feel of it.




    If you are getting the club back to the ball you are already using your arms to do it. Manny demonstrated many times that to move the club from over the trail shoulder back to the ball the arms must be used. It can't be done with the hands or the legs or the shoulders or the core, it can only be done with the arms. The good news therefore is that you are already using your arms. The key for you is to use JUST YOUR ARMS eliminating interference from other parts of your body, most often the hands. Subtraction, not addition.



    A drill that Manny gave me when like this;



    1. Assume a proper address position with the club head in the center of the stance; A ball is optional.



    2. Using both hands swing the club over the trail shoulder;



    3. Now, using your arms to do it, simply return the whole club to its address position. Slow not fast. Accuracy in placing the club back in the address position is the ticket.



    Repeat the drill until you think you will die of boredom and you will be surprised how much your ball striking will improve when you go back to hitting balls.



    Steve


    Steve,

    Thanks for the drill, it sounds like thats exactly what I need x100,000!

    Another range session succesfully completed. Irons are hitting crisp. I went from 6 iron 150, 7 iron 140, 8 iron 125 due to over the top then flipping wrists to 8 iron 145 and higher flight trajectory with soft landing and roll... the 6 iron was above 175.

    So far I can only say great things about Manuel’s teachings... the only downfall is my driver, I am slicing it like when I first started playing.... I have to fine tune the “throw over shoulder then follow thru to parallel toe up” with it.
  • Kstone588Kstone588 Members Posts: 2
    edited Feb 22, 2019 2:28pm #1058
    Steve,



    Quick question.



    As far as swinging the club on an arc, wouldn't swinging the club to the target contradict that. You go back on the arc then approach the ball from the inside but then the club travels on a straight line from there to the target? Seems to me instead of the club moving towards the target it would have to just swing on the arc or circle........ from inside to ball to inside? Probably bad job of explaining but am just confused on this part. Do you feel the club swinging to the target or swinging on an arc which to me feels more left? Thanks!
  • EdStrakerEdStraker Members Posts: 50 ✭✭
    I can't thank Manuel de la Torre enough for his book and videos. I wish he was still alive so that I could send a thank you note. In the past two months, I haven't had a round above 80. The last round was a 70, making it the smallest differential between my age(65) and score.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,788 ✭✭
    Kstone588 wrote:


    Steve,



    Quick question.



    As far as swinging the club on an arc, wouldn't swinging the club to the target contradict that. You go back on the arc then approach the ball from the inside but then the club travels on a straight line from there to the target? Seems to me instead of the club moving towards the target it would have to just swing on the arc or circle........ from inside to ball to inside? Probably bad job of explaining but am just confused on this part. Do you feel the club swinging to the target or swinging on an arc which to me feels more left? Thanks!




    Manny would tell you that to swing a club means to move it on an arc around a fixed center. Thus an arc is part of what he means by a swing. To swing the club toward the target means to swing it in such a way that the target line is tangent to the arc at the point where the ball is struck. The club moves as you suggested from inside the line, to on the line at the moment of impact, and then back to the inside.



    Steve
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,788 ✭✭

    juststeve wrote:


    Just took a lesson with John Hayes, after spending about a week reading about Manuel. The first day was shank fest. I had to completely let go of any previous thoughts or feelings. Then suddenly the ball started flying beautifully and the swing started to feel effortless. All the grip adjustments he suggests make perfect sense. It was hard for me to place the Vs pointing straight up but once i got used to it the the palms facing each other made sense... and the right PINKIE just resting over my left index finger was an aha moment. Cant go back now. And the best part, whenever my mind gets ahead of me and I start tweaking things, compensating, etc... all I have to do is think of Manuel saying: “take it back with your hands, put it here (above right shoulder) then take it to here (pointing to target toe up). Easy” and the swing gets fixed and back to normal.

    The hardest part right now is understanding the concept of “swinging with your arms” and the feel of it.




    If you are getting the club back to the ball you are already using your arms to do it. Manny demonstrated many times that to move the club from over the trail shoulder back to the ball the arms must be used. It can't be done with the hands or the legs or the shoulders or the core, it can only be done with the arms. The good news therefore is that you are already using your arms. The key for you is to use JUST YOUR ARMS eliminating interference from other parts of your body, most often the hands. Subtraction, not addition.



    A drill that Manny gave me when like this;



    1. Assume a proper address position with the club head in the center of the stance; A ball is optional.



    2. Using both hands swing the club over the trail shoulder;



    3. Now, using your arms to do it, simply return the whole club to its address position. Slow not fast. Accuracy in placing the club back in the address position is the ticket.



    Repeat the drill until you think you will die of boredom and you will be surprised how much your ball striking will improve when you go back to hitting balls.



    Steve


    Steve,

    Thanks for the drill, it sounds like thats exactly what I need x100,000!

    Another range session succesfully completed. Irons are hitting crisp. I went from 6 iron 150, 7 iron 140, 8 iron 125 due to over the top then flipping wrists to 8 iron 145 and higher flight trajectory with soft landing and roll... the 6 iron was above 175.

    So far I can only say great things about Manuel’s teachings... the only downfall is my driver, I am slicing it like when I first started playing.... I have to fine tune the “throw over shoulder then follow thru to parallel toe up” with it.




    The same drill will give you the feel for returning the club square to the ball at impact.



    Steve
  • Steve,



    Did Manuel ever talk about people whos swings got too long....... mine tends to get long on the backswing even when i just use my hands to take club away and to the right shoulder. Thanks!
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    Steve,

    Thanks again for your answers. Another thing I noticed during the few videos, during the backswing, Manuel seems to take the club back cocking his wrists “violently” on the way up, sending the clubhead accelerating over the right shoulder. Not sure if im explaining my self correctly, its not the usual backswing we are used to see nowadays with a slow take away and delaying cocking until the latter part of the backswing. During his backswing, he propels the clubhead up fast and over, behind him... thats also part of what is making me gain more distance, allowing me to take a full turn and coil. He doesnt seem to worry to much about Tempo, since each one of us have our own... I believe this is also part of what creates the swing motion he describes in his book and, overall, the lag.

    The great thing about all of this is that for the first time in my life I’m just practicing a swing, period, and things like lag, hinge, supination, etc just happen because of the swing motion. No more practicing this position or that position or this or that contortionist move that has to be timed perfectly to MAYBE hit the ball and MAYBE hit the sweet spot.

    Forget about the ball, hold the club and “Just take it to here then take it to here” and let the club send the ball to the target.

    GENIUS
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,788 ✭✭
    Kstone588 wrote:


    Steve,



    Did Manuel ever talk about people whos swings got too long....... mine tends to get long on the backswing even when i just use my hands to take club away and to the right shoulder. Thanks!




    If your swing is long just because you are gifted with great flexibility Manny would leave it alone. If it is long because you have lost the club in your hands or collapsed and gotten narrow at the end of the back swing he would fix that.



    Steve
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,788 ✭✭


    Steve,

    Thanks again for your answers. Another thing I noticed during the few videos, during the backswing, Manuel seems to take the club back cocking his wrists “violently” on the way up, sending the clubhead accelerating over the right shoulder. Not sure if im explaining my self correctly, its not the usual backswing we are used to see nowadays with a slow take away and delaying cocking until the latter part of the backswing. During his backswing, he propels the clubhead up fast and over, behind him... thats also part of what is making me gain more distance, allowing me to take a full turn and coil. He doesnt seem to worry to much about Tempo, since each one of us have our own... I believe this is also part of what creates the swing motion he describes in his book and, overall, the lag.

    The great thing about all of this is that for the first time in my life I’m just practicing a swing, period, and things like lag, hinge, supination, etc just happen because of the swing motion. No more practicing this position or that position or this or that contortionist move that has to be timed perfectly to MAYBE hit the ball and MAYBE hit the sweet spot.

    Forget about the ball, hold the club and “Just take it to here then take it to here” and let the club send the ball to the target.

    GENIUS




    Tempo is very individual. Manny, particularly when he was younger, had a brisk tempo back and forward. Manny however did not "**** his wrists" violently or otherwise. His wrist **** was simply a reaction to the weight and momentum of the swinging club going back causing the wrist ****, going forward causing the uncocking. The deliberate cocking or uncocking of the wrists would be an application of leverage and violate the swing principle.



    Steve
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    Steve,



    I found the answer over the weekend by re-reading the chapter about the swing. There is no intentional cocking of the wrists, just swing motion and the momentum and weight of the clubhead during the backswing eventually produces the cocking. It took me a few hours in my back yard swinging clubs over the weekend to get it, after building a homemade aid with my son’s toy plastic ball and jumping rope. Learning what “swing” means, like Ernst Jones used to teach with a handkerchief tied to a pocketknife. Back and forth feeling the weight. Finding the tempo.





  • DeepforkDeepfork Go Pokes! Members Posts: 173 ✭✭
    I've spent the last week reading this thread for the first time. What a trip! I have bought the book and will be working my way through it. I've only had a couple times on the range to work on this method and I can say that I have a long way to go. However, I am convinced this is the way to go and I will get there by putting in the time. I'd like to thank everyone for contributing to this thread, especially Steve. I'll be back to report on any progress.
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    Had another lesson yesterday with John Hayes. Making good progress, gained tons of distance and the balls seem to fly forever and hang in the air like crazy. Without any caveman effort to smash the ball and shift weight and yadda yadda yadda... now working on eliminating wrist roll thru impact (producing a hook). I think this is the last BIG step on my conversion before I can fully deploy it during a full round. After this, minor tweaks and then dig into the short game....
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,960 ✭✭
    John is a really good guy and great instructor. What does he have you working on in terms of MDLT?
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    Now last touches... mainly setting club 3 inches ahead of ball at address, to make that point the target in my mind, not the ball, then focus on swing going back with hands then whole club forward with arms to that point 3 inches ahead of the ball (the ball will just disappear during the swing flying to the target).



    It is extremely hard to trust the swing ON COURSE and not think about the ball. Thats the mental part of it all I guess...



    All my misses are to the left, due to tendency to roll wrists.... he told me to make sure I keep pressure constant in fingers when swinging forward and to aim three inches ahead of the ball to avoid nasty hooks.



  • DeepforkDeepfork Go Pokes! Members Posts: 173 ✭✭
    If you don't mind my asking, how much does John charge?
  • stickfishstickfish Members Posts: 108 ✭✭
    Deepfork wrote:


    If you don't mind my asking, how much does John charge?




    Based on his first hand encounters with Mr. de la Torre not nearly enough. If you are lucky enough to come away with a note card or two from John they are worth the costs alone.

  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    I agree, not enough for how much he makes you improve and simplify things. John is a great guy, gives you his full attention, tells great stories about Manuel too... I would highly recommend reading Manuel’s book and checking out threads like this one before starting lessons with him or other coaches that teach Manuel’s ideas, so you can fully understand theirs methods and concepts... by the way, here are my cards from John!

  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    I did not realize John has a website, check it out, some good videos and links, specially one where you can see Manuel hitting balls at the range. That Tempo...



    WWW.JOHNHAYESGOLF.COM



    And to answer a previous question about cost...



    PRIVATE LESSONS – One hour – $70. Half hour – $45. Check “Golf Lesson Pricing” tab for all series prices. Prices always include range balls.



    ***SEMI-PRIVATE ADULT LESSON PRICES FOR SMALL GROUPS, ONE-HOUR – 2 people – $90 (Series of 4 – $340). 3 people – $105 (Series of 4 – $375). 4 people – $120 (Series of 4 – $420) Adult Groups of 5 or more is $140 per hour. *** SEMI-PRIVATE JUNIOR (age 17 or younger) LESSONS: ONE-HOUR – 2 people – $60 (Series of 5 – $250). 3 people – $75 (Series of 5 – $315) Range balls included! Junior Groups of 4 or more is $140 per hour. Click on “Golf Lesson Prices” tab for all details.

  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,299 ✭✭
    juststeve wrote:

    Kstone588 wrote:


    Steve,



    Quick question.



    As far as swinging the club on an arc, wouldn't swinging the club to the target contradict that. You go back on the arc then approach the ball from the inside but then the club travels on a straight line from there to the target? Seems to me instead of the club moving towards the target it would have to just swing on the arc or circle........ from inside to ball to inside? Probably bad job of explaining but am just confused on this part. Do you feel the club swinging to the target or swinging on an arc which to me feels more left? Thanks!




    Manny would tell you that to swing a club means to move it on an arc around a fixed center. Thus an arc is part of what he means by a swing. To swing the club toward the target means to swing it in such a way that the target line is tangent to the arc at the point where the ball is struck. The club moves as you suggested from inside the line, to on the line at the moment of impact, and then back to the inside.



    Steve




    Once I learned to visualize this in my minds eye, the thought of swinging my arms became irrelevant. I just think of the club swinging much as you describe.

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  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Members Posts: 207 ✭✭
    I played my first round today(14 holes actually, got dark). My old swing kept on creeping up, trying to take over. I would set up, balanced, take club back with hands but then... start downswing opening up left knee towards target, spinning hips and trying to compensate with hands... a mess. Always a miss to the left, hooks. Took me 2 holes to get the rhythm and then the beautiful shots started to come out. Started on par-3 3rd hole, 127 yards. I go to my old distance, 8 iron. Swing and send the ball flying high and long, 20 yards over and left of green. Then I said screw it, relax and swing back and forward to target. Teed it up again, grabbed PW instead and landed it 5 feet from the pin, high and soft (125 my new PW distance!). From there, good rhythm, good swings, good contact, bogeys and doubles turned into pars and birdies. I still hooked 2 more shots randomly both with 4 iron, my mind telling me to turn fast and kill the ball otherwise i would be short of target... deadly thought.

    I also tried to incorporate Manuel’s thoughts for short game, even though I have not really practice them. So I only used a wedge twice really, finding myself playing 8iron or 6iron from 50 yards in (most pins were towards the back of the greens and uphill). Worked out pretty good.

    Good feelings, most important, I learned to trust the new swing.

    Thanks again Manuel, from one spaniard to another!
  • delfamdelfam Members Posts: 280 ✭✭

    Steve,
    Do you know of anyone in the PA area (or just northeast) that teaches this method? Would love to get some real life feedback on what I'm doing. Seems most people who teach it are more in the middle of the country. Was thinking of visiting John Hayes but just a little far for me to commit to currently.

  • ZizzerZizzer Members Posts: 19 ✭✭
     A super nice man with much to say about the golf swing but no awareness of The Ground. I was a participant in the schools featured in John Hayes website. John Hayes is also a nice man but lacks even one or two top division one players over a lifetime of instruction                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,788 ✭✭

    @delfam said:
    Steve,
    Do you know of anyone in the PA area (or just northeast) that teaches this method? Would love to get some real life feedback on what I'm doing. Seems most people who teach it are more in the middle of the country. Was thinking of visiting John Hayes but just a little far for me to commit to currently.

    Sorry but I don't. John Hayes in Clear Water Fla. is more likely to know someone in your neighborhood than anyone I can think of. He's a nice guy and always willing to help spread Manny's teachings. Email him, or even give him a Call. If you havn'y already done so sign up for his monthly email news letter. A little teaching every month. What he teaches is what Manny taught.

    Steve

  • Jersey golferJersey golfer Members Posts: 450 ✭✭

    I am having difficulty keeping the hands passive in the forward swing. Does anyone have any drills or suggestions?

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