Manual de la Torre Method

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Jersey golfer said:

    I am having difficulty keeping the hands passive in the forward swing. Does anyone have any drills or suggestions?

    It was almost a mantra for Manny to say once the club is swinging JUST LEAVE IT ALONE. The swinging club will strike the ball toward the target if you JUST LEAVE IT ALONE.

    This approach works provided you pre-swing fundamentals are in order. If they aren't you will need to rely on hand eye coordination to find the ball with a square club face. Check:

    Your grip. It should be such that the club returns to the ball in a square position without manipulation;

    Your ball position. Club head in the center of the stance, ball just ahead of the club head;

    Alignment. In balance with he target.

    Get those right and it becomes more likely that you can JUST LEAVE IT ALONE.

    What if your still using your hands to hit at the ball?

    Manny would have had you make a lot of swings, over the trail shoulder to over the front shoulder brushing the ground on the way. Without a ball to hit at you will get the feel for just swinging the club and LEAVING IT ALONE. It will take time. The impulse to use our hands to do something to hit the ball is a strong one. It crops up even among those of us that know it's destructive but you must overcome the impulse.

    Steve

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  • LowAndLeft32LowAndLeft32 Members  233WRX Points: 71Posts: 233 Fairways
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    I would be interested in hearing people’s results with the MDLT method. Specifically how long did it take to learn and how much improvement did you see in you hdcp? Thanks.

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  • oukeithoukeith MichiganMembers  177WRX Points: 61Handicap: Mid-capperPosts: 177 Fairways
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    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    I would be interested in hearing people’s results with the MDLT method. Specifically how long did it take to learn and how much improvement did you see in you hdcp? Thanks.

    I was in a bad place with golf when I picked up MDLT method. I could barely hit the golf ball. I took some lessons and thought I was supposed to start the downswing with my legs and use my body. Never fully grasped the concept, and was shanking like crazy and prone to a big push slice.

    I saw immediate improvement. I went from shooting 55 during my league to 45 literally over night, with a little practice.

    Having said that, I still have a lot to improve. I know I am using my hands and my shoulders far too much in the forward swing. I figure if I can improve on those items this year, I should pick up more accuracy and distance. Hoping to break 40 in those league rounds. It is hard without an instructor though, and I wish there was someone here in MI to go see.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @oukeith said:

    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    I would be interested in hearing people’s results with the MDLT method. Specifically how long did it take to learn and how much improvement did you see in you hdcp? Thanks.

    I was in a bad place with golf when I picked up MDLT method. I could barely hit the golf ball. I took some lessons and thought I was supposed to start the downswing with my legs and use my body. Never fully grasped the concept, and was shanking like crazy and prone to a big push slice.

    I saw immediate improvement. I went from shooting 55 during my league to 45 literally over night, with a little practice.

    Having said that, I still have a lot to improve. I know I am using my hands and my shoulders far too much in the forward swing. I figure if I can improve on those items this year, I should pick up more accuracy and distance. Hoping to break 40 in those league rounds. It is hard without an instructor though, and I wish there was someone here in MI to go see.

    The keys to improvement are:
    1. Don't deviate from Manny's teachings. They are complete and sufficient themselves. Don't add anything or take anything away.

    1. Spend you time learning to execute what Manny taught better and more consistently. That is the road to better golf.

    Steve

    Posted:
  • LowAndLeft32LowAndLeft32 Members  233WRX Points: 71Posts: 233 Fairways
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    Awesome advice Steve. So in your opinion are Ballard and Mannys philosophy very similar?

    Posted:
  • Jersey golferJersey golfer Members  489WRX Points: 104Handicap: 14.9Posts: 489 Greens
    Joined:  #1087

    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    Awesome advice Steve. So in your opinion are Ballard and Mannys philosophy very similar?

    I'm not Steve, but Ballard and de la Torre are polar opposites in my opinion.

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  • oukeithoukeith MichiganMembers  177WRX Points: 61Handicap: Mid-capperPosts: 177 Fairways
    Joined:  #1088

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @oukeith said:

    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    I would be interested in hearing people’s results with the MDLT method. Specifically how long did it take to learn and how much improvement did you see in you hdcp? Thanks.

    I was in a bad place with golf when I picked up MDLT method. I could barely hit the golf ball. I took some lessons and thought I was supposed to start the downswing with my legs and use my body. Never fully grasped the concept, and was shanking like crazy and prone to a big push slice.

    I saw immediate improvement. I went from shooting 55 during my league to 45 literally over night, with a little practice.

    Having said that, I still have a lot to improve. I know I am using my hands and my shoulders far too much in the forward swing. I figure if I can improve on those items this year, I should pick up more accuracy and distance. Hoping to break 40 in those league rounds. It is hard without an instructor though, and I wish there was someone here in MI to go see.

    The keys to improvement are:
    1. Don't deviate from Manny's teachings. They are complete and sufficient themselves. Don't add anything or take anything away.

    1. Spend you time learning to execute what Manny taught better and more consistently. That is the road to better golf.

    Steve

    I already want to move the ball forward in my stance with my driver. The temptation to add or subtract is real. 😂

    Posted:
  • LowAndLeft32LowAndLeft32 Members  233WRX Points: 71Posts: 233 Fairways
    Joined:  #1089

    Steve and others, how important is the whippy tempomaster in learning this swing? Also, which whippy tempomaster club is most preferred? Thanks.

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  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  370WRX Points: 102Handicap: 9.2Posts: 370 Greens
    Joined:  #1090

    On -, @JohnnyNight said:

    I Back..!!
    The Genius of the downswing being initiated by your upper arms (elbow to shoulder) is that by doing so this automatically moves your core which in turn clears your hips to then allow the club to follow through in the proper sequence...!!

    Of course all of the regular things about rhythm, posture and grip pressure apply to this swing as they would to any swing.

    There are some modern instructors who are advocating starting the downswing with the upper arms for just the reason you stated.
    Tony Luczak for one.

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  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  370WRX Points: 102Handicap: 9.2Posts: 370 Greens
    Joined:  #1091

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Manny would have had you make a lot of swings, over the trail shoulder to over the front shoulder brushing the ground on the way. Without a ball to hit at you will get the feel for just swinging the club and LEAVING IT ALONE. It will take time. The impulse to use our hands to do something to hit the ball is a strong one. It crops up even among those of us that know it's destructive but you must overcome the impulse.

    Steve

    The grass cutting drill!

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #1092

    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    Awesome advice Steve. So in your opinion are Ballard and Mannys philosophy very similar?

    Depends what you mean by their "philosophy" Both taught/teach a holistic method for swinging a golf club. Both would say that nothing needed to be added to what they taught/teach, just execute. What they taught however were nearly as opposite as they could be and still involve moving a golf club. The two swing theories don't mix.

    Steve

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    Steve and others, how important is the whippy tempomaster in learning this swing? Also, which whippy tempomaster club is most preferred? Thanks.

    Manny did not teach with the Tempomaster. In fact I don't know if he was even aware of the product, although he probably was. Manny helped his students feel what a swing is like by putting his hand on the club and moving it for the student until the feeling was ingrained. He also used a weight on the end of a string for the same purpose.

    Without Manny's help we still need to find the feel for a true swinging action. The Tempomaster demands that we swing the club and not lever it. It teaches the difference between a swing and other ways the club can move.

    Steve

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  • LowAndLeft32LowAndLeft32 Members  233WRX Points: 71Posts: 233 Fairways
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    Thanks Steve. On the tempomaster is one club better than the other ie driver long iron mid iron or wedge? Or doesn’t really matter. Thanks again.

    Posted:
  • gamesgames Argue for your limitations and they are yours. Des MoinesMembers  1937WRX Points: 295Posts: 1,937 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #1095

    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    Thanks Steve. On the tempomaster is one club better than the other ie driver long iron mid iron or wedge? Or doesn’t really matter. Thanks again.

    If you never used one, I would go with wedge first. Once mastered, you could try longer ones. They’re a challenge to swing correctly if you’re coming off a flippy hands-led swing like me!

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  • tm3tm3 Members  122WRX Points: 75Posts: 122 Fairways
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    On -, @LowAndLeft32 said:

    Thanks Steve. On the tempomaster is one club better than the other ie driver long iron mid iron or wedge? Or doesn’t really matter. Thanks again.

    The inventor of the Whippy recommends starting with the driver, saying it is easier than the irons for most people. The great thing about a wedge though is it a great tool for developing short game skills.

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  • LowAndLeft32LowAndLeft32 Members  233WRX Points: 71Posts: 233 Fairways
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    I was thinking about starting with the whippy 5 iron since it’s in the middle of the clubs and I dont have to tee every ball up.

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  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  370WRX Points: 102Handicap: 9.2Posts: 370 Greens
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    I've bought and have been reading Manual's book. I'm really enjoying it. As a "Brian Sparks" disciple it's right in my wheel house. I'm thinking of maybe traveling to a 3 day school in St' Louis (The Heartlands Golf School) with Ed LeBeau who is another Manual disciple. Anyone have any experience with Ed or his school?

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
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    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  370WRX Points: 102Handicap: 9.2Posts: 370 Greens
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    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #1101

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    I may be wrong but I think Sparks advocates a swing in which the arms moved by weight shift and the rotation of the body. That is to say the body moves the arms and the club. Manny taught the opposite. What Manny taught was to swing the club with the hands going back and the arms going forward with the body moving in response to the swinging of the club. Quite opposite notions even though rhythm, balance and coordination are good in both methods.

    Steve

    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  370WRX Points: 102Handicap: 9.2Posts: 370 Greens
    Joined:  #1102

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    I may be wrong but I think Sparks advocates a swing in which the arms moved by weight shift and the rotation of the body. That is to say the body moves the arms and the club. Manny taught the opposite. What Manny taught was to swing the club with the hands going back and the arms going forward with the body moving in response to the swinging of the club. Quite opposite notions even though rhythm, balance and coordination are good in both methods.

    Steve

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    I may be wrong but I think Sparks advocates a swing in which the arms moved by weight shift and the rotation of the body. That is to say the body moves the arms and the club. Manny taught the opposite. What Manny taught was to swing the club with the hands going back and the arms going forward with the body moving in response to the swinging of the club. Quite opposite notions even though rhythm, balance and coordination are good in both methods.

    Steve

    Brian actually just wants everything connected with a smooth, tension free, rhythmic swing. He doesn't care if "someone feels" the arms go first and the body reacts or vice versa. As long as the swing is in balance and tension free. So I think "his method" is really more of a "philosophy" that can incorporate a wide variety of methods.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    I may be wrong but I think Sparks advocates a swing in which the arms moved by weight shift and the rotation of the body. That is to say the body moves the arms and the club. Manny taught the opposite. What Manny taught was to swing the club with the hands going back and the arms going forward with the body moving in response to the swinging of the club. Quite opposite notions even though rhythm, balance and coordination are good in both methods.

    Steve

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    I may be wrong but I think Sparks advocates a swing in which the arms moved by weight shift and the rotation of the body. That is to say the body moves the arms and the club. Manny taught the opposite. What Manny taught was to swing the club with the hands going back and the arms going forward with the body moving in response to the swinging of the club. Quite opposite notions even though rhythm, balance and coordination are good in both methods.

    Steve

    Brian actually just wants everything connected with a smooth, tension free, rhythmic swing. He doesn't care if "someone feels" the arms go first and the body reacts or vice versa. As long as the swing is in balance and tension free. So I think "his method" is really more of a "philosophy" that can incorporate a wide variety of methods.

    Perhaps I don't understand what Sparks teaches. If it's just swing in balance and tension free who would argue with that.

    Steve

    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  370WRX Points: 102Handicap: 9.2Posts: 370 Greens
    Joined:  #1104

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    I may be wrong but I think Sparks advocates a swing in which the arms moved by weight shift and the rotation of the body. That is to say the body moves the arms and the club. Manny taught the opposite. What Manny taught was to swing the club with the hands going back and the arms going forward with the body moving in response to the swinging of the club. Quite opposite notions even though rhythm, balance and coordination are good in both methods.

    Steve

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @BigEx44 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    I don't know LeBeau personally but his YouTube content is very much in line with what Manny taught. Neither he nor Manny have much in common with Brian Sparks so I would caution you not to try to mix the two.

    Steve

    Since Brian is only about the swing having "rhythm, balance and coordination"....I'm not sure why the two philosophies would be at odds?

    I may be wrong but I think Sparks advocates a swing in which the arms moved by weight shift and the rotation of the body. That is to say the body moves the arms and the club. Manny taught the opposite. What Manny taught was to swing the club with the hands going back and the arms going forward with the body moving in response to the swinging of the club. Quite opposite notions even though rhythm, balance and coordination are good in both methods.

    Steve

    Brian actually just wants everything connected with a smooth, tension free, rhythmic swing. He doesn't care if "someone feels" the arms go first and the body reacts or vice versa. As long as the swing is in balance and tension free. So I think "his method" is really more of a "philosophy" that can incorporate a wide variety of methods.

    Perhaps I don't understand what Sparks teaches. If it's just swing in balance and tension free who would argue with that.

    Steve

    Sparks doesn't think you can be tension free if you're trying to hit "positions" (thus his similarity to Manual). He also doesn' think you can be tension free if you force the left foot (for a RH golfer) to stay down. He doesn't think you can be tension free if you try force a "coil" on the BS. He also doesn't think you can be tension free if you try to keep the left arm (for a RH) ramrod striaght (so he's ok with some bend). If you can do those things naturally and without tension he's ok with it - but most senior golfers can't and that's the population he caters to. So he goes against the teachings of some.

    Posted:
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 91Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Apr 6, 2019 #1105

    Hi everybody, I figured ya’ll would like to see this one... all finished up and polished, should be hitting the course soon! I think it was Manuel’s dad project with Ernest Jones when they first left Spain.

    Posted:
  • jpcortesejpcortese Members  31WRX Points: 64Handicap: 12Posts: 31 Bunkers
    Joined:  #1106

    Steve,
    I have been working on this swing at the range and the results are encouraging but I do have a question for you. How do you hit a high fade with a driver with this swing? The course I play has several holes where you need to hit a high fade with the driver and I'm having a hard time doing so. Seems like everything is going straight or a little left. Any advice on how to hit a high fade with the driver?

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5180WRX Points: 542Posts: 5,180 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #1107

    On -, @jpcortese said:

    Steve,
    I have been working on this swing at the range and the results are encouraging but I do have a question for you. How do you hit a high fade with a driver with this swing? The course I play has several holes where you need to hit a high fade with the driver and I'm having a hard time doing so. Seems like everything is going straight or a little left. Any advice on how to hit a high fade with the driver?

    Here's what I do:

    To hit the ball higher I move the ball forward in my stance but address the ball with the club head in the center of my stance.
    To make the ball fade I firm up my left hand grip and swing a bit to the left.
    To make it draw I do the opposite.

    These are feel shots and the feels that work fr me might not work for anyone else.

    Steve

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