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Manual de la Torre Method

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5326WRX Points: 638Posts: 5,326 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @skajaquada77 said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Some of you seem to be having grip issues. Here is what Manny told me, and didn't tell me about the grip:

    Did tell me:

    1. Hands in balance with one another, meaning placing your hands on the club so that the palms are facing each other. Manny thought that would promote cooperation between the hands.
    2. Hands in balance with he target which means if you were to open the bottom hand the palm would be perpendicular to he target line. Manny thought this promoted a square face at impact and a propper path through impact.
    3. Grip pressure is an individual thing but we should try to keep it constant throughout the swing.

    Didn't tell me

    How much the top hand grip was in the fingers or the palm. I take that to mean it didn't matter so long as the other principles were observed.

    Steve

    Thanks Steve. Trying to stick to it, and yes, definately having grip issues, i can tell because when i switch from iron to let’s say Hybrid, I can’t seem to settle down at address so I keep re-gripping and regripping because I feel the head gets twisted shut/open. I cut a shaft with a grip and I keep it in the house so I can practice grip over and over.

    I recently felt something I didnt before, where both hands were facing each other but the bottom of right thumb/palm area cushion rested on top of left (hand with V pointing up) in a way that was keeping the left had from turning left and shutting the blade, all without pressure on the grip itself. Does that make sense? It seems that now i can swing better and more accurate without the blade twisting at impact. I’m only doing half shots with PW until I feel confident and I know Im on the right path to target without coming over the top.
    So taking it easy until I graduate to the next iron.

    Andres

    Manny asked some student to form their grip while standing behind the ball, then put the club head down behind the ball and swing without delay. I was never comfortable doing that. I always finalized my grip after putting the club behind the ball, but I have never experienced what you describe.

    Steve

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  • NoTalentLeftyNoTalentLefty Members  3936WRX Points: 358Handicap: 12.9Posts: 3,936 Titanium Tees
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    thanks Steve for the grip response

    Posted:
    Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

    Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
    3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
    3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
    6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
    7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
    50 degree GW Vokey SM7
    56 degree SW Vokey SM7
    Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 92Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
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    Manny asked some student to form their grip while standing behind the ball, then put the club head down behind the ball and swing without delay. I was never comfortable doing that. I always finalized my grip after putting the club behind the ball, but I have never experienced what you describe.

    Steve

    Thanks again Steve, we are lucky to have you here and man, you are a lucky one to have shared many hours working with Manuel.
    Interesting thought, I recorded myself swinging a 6iron and it really doesnt look much different than before. The flight, contact, and trajectory are much improved but in reality, the swing looks almost the same. So is this all just a mental thought? We are all just trying to figure out a sequence to tell our brains how to swing the club? In our case hands then arms, other people say start with kneethen hips then chest or whatever.... but result looks the same kind of. Looking at Angel De La Torre sequence got me thinking about it.... he was obviously a great example of arm swing (or hands swing) along with Ernest Jones.... but can we tell from the pictures? Is it obvious? Look at his lower body, is it responding to hands/arm motion?

    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  382WRX Points: 120Handicap: 9.2Posts: 382 Greens
    Joined:  edited Aug 24, 2019 #1235

    I've been trying to implement the MDLT method all summer. Struggling to get the feeling of swinging with arms and letting the body react - but may have come across a drill that works for me (thanks to Shawn Clement).
    His drill is this:
    1) Hit 4 balls with your feet together - definately promotes an arm swing where the body reacts to stay in balance.
    2) Then hit 4 balls using the flamingo stance (setup normal, then drop the right foot back and on its toe (for righthanders) - promotes an inside to square swing again using arms with body reaction.
    3) Then hit 4 balls with your regular setup and swing.
    I've been doing this drill for the last week and half with great results. As as 11 handicap, I shot a 79 at a tournament today and won my flight (would've been even lower if not for a brain **** where on one green I 4 putted from about 20 feet....)
    4) Rinse and repeat steps 1 through 3.
    The whole feeling of swing to the target with my arms has clicked in for me as a result of the drills above. Maybe they might work for you too!

    Posted:
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members  2082WRX Points: 205Posts: 2,082 Platinum Tees
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    It has been several years since I took my lessons with Manuel. I believe that the intention of swinging the entire club with both arms to be the most elusive intention to capture. I was curious if JustSteve has a thought on what he does/thinks, etc. to execute this concept. If done correctly, for me, it is if my body is completely still and the club whips past it. After all these years, still, a very unusual sensation as I tend to initiate the forward swing with my shoulders to my detriment. A big no, no and as Manny notes in his book is a big reason for pulling shots.

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5326WRX Points: 638Posts: 5,326 Titanium Tees
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    Pearl:

    I'm reluctant to respond to you for fear of doing more harm than good. Manny never taught in terms of how something felt, believing that he could never know how the proper motion would feel to someone else. Therefore I can't tell you how Manny said the proper action would feel. I'm sort of on my own here so take what I say with an appropriate amount of salt.

    The problem seems to be what feels can you employ to delay the response of the shoulders until it is truly a response. I will suggest two:

    1. Some of the Ernest Jones teachers I know or know of talk in terms of the hands working away from the trail shoulder at the change of direction. If you set up facing a mirror, swing the club to the end of the back swing, and then focus on moving the club away from your trail shoulder I think you will see that the club moves quite a long way while the shoulders remain turned. That will get the club moving down from the inside and leading he shoulders.

    2. Jack Nicklaus said he wanted the buttons on the front of his shirt to point behind the ball as it was struck. A feeling to slow down the opening of the shoulders and probably hard to achieve if the shoulders go first.

    3. As for me and since you asked, my feeling is very much one of swinging the club away from my target and then toward my target, PAST OR AWAY FROM MY BODY in both directions. I'm convinced that only my arms can swing the club back through the ball but I am not focused on what my arms do. I am focused on the motion of the club.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve

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  • oukeithoukeith MichiganMembers  177WRX Points: 61Handicap: Mid-capperPosts: 177 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Aug 27, 2019 #1238

    My take on the swing the whole club with your arms deal....

    Don’t get too hung up on it. It’s not meant to be supernatural. Probably just the opposite.

    I take Manuel’s instruction to mean: don’t try to swing with your body. No weight shift, big muscles or rotational intent is needed. And no intervention with the hands. No motorcycle move, pulling down, or dragging the hands needed.

    From my experience, having the “intent” to swing like this is not the same as actually swinging correctly. It takes a lot to change your swing pattern. There was a video earlier in the thread with the cup drill. That dude was convinced he was doing the right thing until Manny put the cup there and told him not to hit it.

    I think it’s probably more important to focus on the club than the feel of swinging with your arms. The intent seems to help me perform better on the course, but it didn’t help me stop casting or scooping. I probably also need a cup.

    Posted:
    Post edited by oukeith on
  • mb123mb123 Members  34WRX Points: 12Handicap: 15Posts: 34 Bunkers
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    Just sharing for the group. I found these video's valuable in reading and understanding the book. The MDLT approach makes so much sense to me, sucks I didn't learn of him soon enough to actually get a lesson being in chicago...

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5326WRX Points: 638Posts: 5,326 Titanium Tees
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    I had a conversation with Manny quite a few years ago about how what he taught differed from Ernest Jones. On the basis of that conversation I concluded that the differences were mostly semantic.

    I asked him quite specifically why he wanted people to swing the whole club forward, not just the club head. He gave me two reasons. First he said that it was impossible to swing just the club head. If the club head is in facts swinging then the shaft and grip are swinging as well, the whole club is swinging. He said to swing the whole club to be accurate. Second, he said he taught swinging the whole club to discourage the tendency to scoop at the ball with leverage through impact. Everything moving in the same direction at the same time. He recognized that Ernest Jones covered the same thing by emphasizing that the hands were passive in the swing.

    As for swinging the club forward with the arms and not the hands he again said this was a matter of being accurate. He said, I think correctly, that the hands alone can't even swing themselves much less the club. Only the arms could make the hands swing and the hands just hold the club. Therefore swing the club forward with the arms, not the hands that can't do the job.

    This was the closest Manny ever came to criticizing Ernest Jones and it was the mildest form of criticism.

    Steve

    Posted:
  • mb123mb123 Members  34WRX Points: 12Handicap: 15Posts: 34 Bunkers
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    On -, @juststeve You are a reincarnation of Manny's writing and the videos from what I can see, thank you very much for sharing all that with us here :) . As I was reading Manny's book over the last few weeks and absorbing all the videos and reading this thread from the beginning, it really brings it all together and your comments espouse consistently what Manny says in the videos and in the book. There really isn't much left to interpretation and it is very specific.
    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  382WRX Points: 120Handicap: 9.2Posts: 382 Greens
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    On -, @juststeve said:

    Pearl:

    I'm reluctant to respond to you for fear of doing more harm than good. Manny never taught in terms of how something felt, believing that he could never know how the proper motion would feel to someone else. Therefore I can't tell you how Manny said the proper action would feel. I'm sort of on my own here so take what I say with an appropriate amount of salt.

    The problem seems to be what feels can you employ to delay the response of the shoulders until it is truly a response. I will suggest two:

    1. Some of the Ernest Jones teachers I know or know of talk in terms of the hands working away from the trail shoulder at the change of direction. If you set up facing a mirror, swing the club to the end of the back swing, and then focus on moving the club away from your trail shoulder I think you will see that the club moves quite a long way while the shoulders remain turned. That will get the club moving down from the inside and leading he shoulders.

    2. Jack Nicklaus said he wanted the buttons on the front of his shirt to point behind the ball as it was struck. A feeling to slow down the opening of the shoulders and probably hard to achieve if the shoulders go first.

    3. As for me and since you asked, my feeling is very much one of swinging the club away from my target and then toward my target, PAST OR AWAY FROM MY BODY in both directions. I'm convinced that only my arms can swing the club back through the ball but I am not focused on what my arms do. I am focused on the motion of the club.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve

    This video is from a totally different swing methodology (Jim Venetos) but I find the drill he talks about to be useful when implementing the MDLT method.
    I believe it works on exactly what you mention in your post Steve. I like to do this drill in the morning without a ball (in my living room) to get a feeling of the arms starting the swing without the shoulder (which in a real speed swing will just react to the movement of the arms). Great drill IMHO.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5326WRX Points: 638Posts: 5,326 Titanium Tees
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    Manny had a similar drill but it had nothing to do with keeping the shoulders closed. Just swing the club back with the hands then slowly and precisely return the whole club to the address position with the arms. Repeat until you felt like you were going to die.

    Steve

    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  382WRX Points: 120Handicap: 9.2Posts: 382 Greens
    Joined:  #1244

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Manny had a similar drill but it had nothing to do with keeping the shoulders closed. Just swing the club back with the hands then slowly and precisely return the whole club to the address position with the arms. Repeat until you felt like you were going to die.

    Steve

    Yes...that’s the other drill I do in my living room every morning.
    Also an excellent drill.
    We’re there any drills Manny had you do or recommended?

    Posted:
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members  2082WRX Points: 205Posts: 2,082 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #1245

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Pearl:

    I'm reluctant to respond to you for fear of doing more harm than good. Manny never taught in terms of how something felt, believing that he could never know how the proper motion would feel to someone else. Therefore I can't tell you how Manny said the proper action would feel. I'm sort of on my own here so take what I say with an appropriate amount of salt.

    The problem seems to be what feels can you employ to delay the response of the shoulders until it is truly a response. I will suggest two:

    1. Some of the Ernest Jones teachers I know or know of talk in terms of the hands working away from the trail shoulder at the change of direction. If you set up facing a mirror, swing the club to the end of the back swing, and then focus on moving the club away from your trail shoulder I think you will see that the club moves quite a long way while the shoulders remain turned. That will get the club moving down from the inside and leading he shoulders.

    2. Jack Nicklaus said he wanted the buttons on the front of his shirt to point behind the ball as it was struck. A feeling to slow down the opening of the shoulders and probably hard to achieve if the shoulders go first.

    3. As for me and since you asked, my feeling is very much one of swinging the club away from my target and then toward my target, PAST OR AWAY FROM MY BODY in both directions. I'm convinced that only my arms can swing the club back through the ball but I am not focused on what my arms do. I am focused on the motion of the club.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve

    Thanks, Steve
    I have learned my lesson by tinkering with Manny's methods. I am pretty good at not getting too far off track now. I like #3 above. I can't quite get #1 to work at the range.

    Posted:
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 92Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
    Joined:  #1246

    On -, @The Pearl said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Pearl:

    I'm reluctant to respond to you for fear of doing more harm than good. Manny never taught in terms of how something felt, believing that he could never know how the proper motion would feel to someone else. Therefore I can't tell you how Manny said the proper action would feel. I'm sort of on my own here so take what I say with an appropriate amount of salt.

    The problem seems to be what feels can you employ to delay the response of the shoulders until it is truly a response. I will suggest two:

    1. Some of the Ernest Jones teachers I know or know of talk in terms of the hands working away from the trail shoulder at the change of direction. If you set up facing a mirror, swing the club to the end of the back swing, and then focus on moving the club away from your trail shoulder I think you will see that the club moves quite a long way while the shoulders remain turned. That will get the club moving down from the inside and leading he shoulders.

    2. Jack Nicklaus said he wanted the buttons on the front of his shirt to point behind the ball as it was struck. A feeling to slow down the opening of the shoulders and probably hard to achieve if the shoulders go first.

    3. As for me and since you asked, my feeling is very much one of swinging the club away from my target and then toward my target, PAST OR AWAY FROM MY BODY in both directions. I'm convinced that only my arms can swing the club back through the ball but I am not focused on what my arms do. I am focused on the motion of the club.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve

    Thanks, Steve
    I have learned my lesson by tinkering with Manny's methods. I am pretty good at not getting too far off track now. I like #3 above. I can't quite get #1 to work at the range.

    Steve, that #1... do you mean from top of the swing to pull away from trailer shoulder, away from the target?, as if you were pulling down on a rope tied to the ceiling on a pulley on the target side above you? Sorry, I am that visual... I know, I’m crazy.

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5326WRX Points: 638Posts: 5,326 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @skajaquada77 said:

    On -, @The Pearl said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Pearl:

    I'm reluctant to respond to you for fear of doing more harm than good. Manny never taught in terms of how something felt, believing that he could never know how the proper motion would feel to someone else. Therefore I can't tell you how Manny said the proper action would feel. I'm sort of on my own here so take what I say with an appropriate amount of salt.

    The problem seems to be what feels can you employ to delay the response of the shoulders until it is truly a response. I will suggest two:

    1. Some of the Ernest Jones teachers I know or know of talk in terms of the hands working away from the trail shoulder at the change of direction. If you set up facing a mirror, swing the club to the end of the back swing, and then focus on moving the club away from your trail shoulder I think you will see that the club moves quite a long way while the shoulders remain turned. That will get the club moving down from the inside and leading he shoulders.

    2. Jack Nicklaus said he wanted the buttons on the front of his shirt to point behind the ball as it was struck. A feeling to slow down the opening of the shoulders and probably hard to achieve if the shoulders go first.

    3. As for me and since you asked, my feeling is very much one of swinging the club away from my target and then toward my target, PAST OR AWAY FROM MY BODY in both directions. I'm convinced that only my arms can swing the club back through the ball but I am not focused on what my arms do. I am focused on the motion of the club.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve

    Thanks, Steve
    I have learned my lesson by tinkering with Manny's methods. I am pretty good at not getting too far off track now. I like #3 above. I can't quite get #1 to work at the range.

    Steve, that #1... do you mean from top of the swing to pull away from trailer shoulder, away from the target?, as if you were pulling down on a rope tied to the ceiling on a pulley on the target side above you? Sorry, I am that visual... I know, I’m crazy.

    This is exactly why it's dangerous to get into how the swing feels to some folk. The what to do is swing the club, with both arms, in one continuous motion, in the direction of the target. As to how that will feel to others I can't say. What I can say is do not substitute a pulling motion for a swinging motion. They are two very different things and only the swinging motion is correct.

    Steve

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  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 92Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
    Joined:  #1248

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @skajaquada77 said:

    On -, @The Pearl said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Pearl:

    I'm reluctant to respond to you for fear of doing more harm than good. Manny never taught in terms of how something felt, believing that he could never know how the proper motion would feel to someone else. Therefore I can't tell you how Manny said the proper action would feel. I'm sort of on my own here so take what I say with an appropriate amount of salt.

    The problem seems to be what feels can you employ to delay the response of the shoulders until it is truly a response. I will suggest two:

    1. Some of the Ernest Jones teachers I know or know of talk in terms of the hands working away from the trail shoulder at the change of direction. If you set up facing a mirror, swing the club to the end of the back swing, and then focus on moving the club away from your trail shoulder I think you will see that the club moves quite a long way while the shoulders remain turned. That will get the club moving down from the inside and leading he shoulders.

    2. Jack Nicklaus said he wanted the buttons on the front of his shirt to point behind the ball as it was struck. A feeling to slow down the opening of the shoulders and probably hard to achieve if the shoulders go first.

    3. As for me and since you asked, my feeling is very much one of swinging the club away from my target and then toward my target, PAST OR AWAY FROM MY BODY in both directions. I'm convinced that only my arms can swing the club back through the ball but I am not focused on what my arms do. I am focused on the motion of the club.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve

    Thanks, Steve
    I have learned my lesson by tinkering with Manny's methods. I am pretty good at not getting too far off track now. I like #3 above. I can't quite get #1 to work at the range.

    Steve, that #1... do you mean from top of the swing to pull away from trailer shoulder, away from the target?, as if you were pulling down on a rope tied to the ceiling on a pulley on the target side above you? Sorry, I am that visual... I know, I’m crazy.

    This is exactly why it's dangerous to get into how the swing feels to some folk. The what to do is swing the club, with both arms, in one continuous motion, in the direction of the target. As to how that will feel to others I can't say. What I can say is do not substitute a pulling motion for a swinging motion. They are two very different things and only the swinging motion is correct.

    Steve

    Agreed, swing away!

    Posted:
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers  13973WRX Points: 1,532Handicap: 8-ishPosts: 13,973 Titanium Tees
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    You know, it's amazing how you can play pretty good golf focusing on this method and then you see a tip on Youtube, have a buddy tell you something, or peruse the instruction forum here and next thing you know you are out of kilter. This weekend I am thinking of nothing but swinging the entire club towards the target. I need this thread like an alcoholic needs his AA class, I keep falling off the wagon. LOL.

    My name is Dlygrisse...and I am a swing tinkerer. There...I said it.

    Posted:
    I pick 14 of the following:
    Ping G400
    Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood
    Callaway Apex 23*
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, 58 SS
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Hoofer
    ProV1x-mostly
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 92Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
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    On -, @dlygrisse said:

    You know, it's amazing how you can play pretty good golf focusing on this method and then you see a tip on Youtube, have a buddy tell you something, or peruse the instruction forum here and next thing you know you are out of kilter. This weekend I am thinking of nothing but swinging the entire club towards the target. I need this thread like an alcoholic needs his AA class, I keep falling off the wagon. LOL.

    My name is Dlygrisse...and I am a swing tinkerer. There...I said it.

    So true. I unsuscribed from all emails and youtube channels that have anything to do with instruction. Today I played a great round, felt great. All week I practiced feet-together swings. I tried to emulate the same range of motion on course but feet in normal positions. Thats all the turn you need. Flushed the irons. It literally was taking the club “to the shoulder, brush grass towards target then to shoulder”. Forget everything else, overturning, etc. My mind tells me “yeah ok you turned your shoulders 45 degrees, maybe, not close to full turn”... but guess what, I guarantee you it was closer to 90 than what i thought. Nobody in the group mentioned anything, and I know they would.

    Posted:
  • NoTalentLeftyNoTalentLefty Members  3936WRX Points: 358Handicap: 12.9Posts: 3,936 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 31, 2019 #1251

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Manny had a similar drill but it had nothing to do with keeping the shoulders closed. Just swing the club back with the hands then slowly and precisely return the whole club to the address position with the arms. Repeat until you felt like you were going to die.

    Steve

    Steve,

    I have seen nothing on shoulder tilt to the right at address with a driver with MDLT teaching, that many instructors say is an imperative. Did he ever recommend this? I can’t say I’ve read anything from his book or on the dvd . So I’ve assumed he wanted everything centered.

    P.S. I think I saw the answer in one of his talks on you tube. One doesn’t need spine tilt back if playing from center. It was called setup concepts from 1987.

    Posted:
    Post edited by NoTalentLefty on
    Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

    Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
    3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
    3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
    6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
    7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
    50 degree GW Vokey SM7
    56 degree SW Vokey SM7
    Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 92Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
    Joined:  #1252

    On -, @NoTalentLefty said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Manny had a similar drill but it had nothing to do with keeping the shoulders closed. Just swing the club back with the hands then slowly and precisely return the whole club to the address position with the arms. Repeat until you felt like you were going to die.

    Steve

    Steve,

    I have seen nothing on shoulder tilt to the right at address with a driver with MDLT teaching, that many instructors say is an imperative. Did he ever recommend this? I can’t say I’ve read anything from his book or on the dvd . So I’ve assumed he wanted everything centered.

    P.S. I think I saw the answer in one of his talks on you tube. One doesn’t need spine tilt back if playing from center. It was called setup concepts from 1987.

    I remember seeing something about it in the video you mentioned. I’m glad I went back to it because his whole dissertation on open stance/open shoulders is very interesting and I never thought about it in depth... move left foot back instead of flare out because when you flare out the shoulders open up and this often leads to a slice or cut. I need to observe this effect next time i go to the range.

    Posted:
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  • CiceroCicero Members  1378WRX Points: 66Posts: 1,378 Platinum Tees
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    Been using his method this year, to good affect. It was really helpful, especially as I played through an injury or two, and play on a course with a decent amount of uneven lies, so focusing on swinging the club while allowing the body to respond however it needed to for the circumstance at hand was really helpful. Plus, I can hit driver now, which I couldn’t do very well with this method when I tried it before (idk why). I also steered away from it because I was admittedly concerned about losing distance via the swing method, as I’ve already lost speed due to age, etc. I’ve gotten over that. I figure I’ll pick up speed in the gym (which has worked for me before), and with overspeed devices. But the simplicity of this has been too good to ignore.

    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve Members  5326WRX Points: 638Posts: 5,326 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @NoTalentLefty said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Manny had a similar drill but it had nothing to do with keeping the shoulders closed. Just swing the club back with the hands then slowly and precisely return the whole club to the address position with the arms. Repeat until you felt like you were going to die.

    Steve

    Steve,

    I have seen nothing on shoulder tilt to the right at address with a driver with MDLT teaching, that many instructors say is an imperative. Did he ever recommend this? I can’t say I’ve read anything from his book or on the dvd . So I’ve assumed he wanted everything centered.

    P.S. I think I saw the answer in one of his talks on you tube. One doesn’t need spine tilt back if playing from center. It was called setup concepts from 1987.

    My right shoulder is a bit lower than my left at address but only because my right hand is below the left on the grip. There is no effort to create artificial tilt. Manny wanted students to stand in balance as comfortably as possible with the club head in the center of the stance. He believe that natural position was the one the body would react from most easily.

    Steve

    Posted:
  • NoTalentLeftyNoTalentLefty Members  3936WRX Points: 358Handicap: 12.9Posts: 3,936 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #1255

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @NoTalentLefty said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Manny had a similar drill but it had nothing to do with keeping the shoulders closed. Just swing the club back with the hands then slowly and precisely return the whole club to the address position with the arms. Repeat until you felt like you were going to die.

    Steve

    Steve,

    I have seen nothing on shoulder tilt to the right at address with a driver with MDLT teaching, that many instructors say is an imperative. Did he ever recommend this? I can’t say I’ve read anything from his book or on the dvd . So I’ve assumed he wanted everything centered.

    P.S. I think I saw the answer in one of his talks on you tube. One doesn’t need spine tilt back if playing from center. It was called setup concepts from 1987.

    My right shoulder is a bit lower than my left at address but only because my right hand is below the left on the grip. There is no effort to create artificial tilt. Manny wanted students to stand in balance as comfortably as possible with the club head in the center of the stance. He believe that natural position was the one the body would react from most easily.

    Steve

    Thanks again. My left shoulder is slightly lower at setup. Lefty here.

    Posted:
    Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

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  • mocokidmocokid Members  2260WRX Points: 395Posts: 2,260 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #1256

    On -, @juststeve said:

    On -, @NoTalentLefty said:

    On -, @juststeve said:

    Manny had a similar drill but it had nothing to do with keeping the shoulders closed. Just swing the club back with the hands then slowly and precisely return the whole club to the address position with the arms. Repeat until you felt like you were going to die.

    Steve

    Steve,

    I have seen nothing on shoulder tilt to the right at address with a driver with MDLT teaching, that many instructors say is an imperative. Did he ever recommend this? I can’t say I’ve read anything from his book or on the dvd . So I’ve assumed he wanted everything centered.

    P.S. I think I saw the answer in one of his talks on you tube. One doesn’t need spine tilt back if playing from center. It was called setup concepts from 1987.

    My right shoulder is a bit lower than my left at address but only because my right hand is below the left on the grip. There is no effort to create artificial tilt. Manny wanted students to stand in balance as comfortably as possible with the club head in the center of the stance. He believe that natural position was the one the body would react from most easily.

    Steve

    thanks Steve, from pics of Manny, it seems if the left arm is relaxed and tension free, and ball played in center of stance, the left shoulder is just a little bit above the right.

    Posted:
  • SirFuegoSirFuego Members  307WRX Points: 165Posts: 307 Greens
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2019 #1257

    On -, @mb123 said:

    Just sharing for the group. I found these video's valuable in reading and understanding the book. The MDLT approach makes so much sense to me, sucks I didn't learn of him soon enough to actually get a lesson being in chicago...

    For those that aren't aware, the entire series of these videos (a little shy of 3 hours worth) is available on YouTube:
    Intro
    Grip
    Alignment
    Setup
    Swing
    Mental

    While there is a lot of overlap between the book and the videos, there are some good nuggets in the videos that I don't recall being in the book (such as how to check if you are actually swinging over your shoulder), so they are worth watching even if you are familiar with the book.

    After watching these videos, juststeve has done a fantastic job communicating MDLT's concepts over the past few years using just words, but seeing actual video of this might turn on some light bulbs that words and still pictures can't do on their own.

    Posted:
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  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 92Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
    Joined:  #1258

    I struggled for months with consistency. Sometimes my swing was great, sending the ball to the target with a perfect, predictable flight, sometimes I was shanking it all over the course. I tweaked and tweaked little things, re-watched the videos, re-read chapters, went back to John a few times... We would fix it but then gone again in 2 weeks.
    Then I built this. I have been swinging much better now, more relaxed. Whenever I have a bad shot I swing a 7iron back and forth to remember the feel and speed that I would use to swing the tennis ball back with my hands and forward with my arms to the target, waiting for it to hit my torso on my backswing then again on my forward swing. I really think it works wonders.

    Posted:
  • skajaquada77skajaquada77 Saint Petersburg, FLMembers  249WRX Points: 92Handicap: 18Posts: 249 Fairways
    Joined:  #1259

    Picture did not upload, here it goes... easy to build, fast results.

    Posted:
  • SirFuegoSirFuego Members  307WRX Points: 165Posts: 307 Greens
    Joined:  edited Nov 14, 2019 #1260

    Anyone with experience trying to teach this method to kids? My daughter is showing an interest in golf, and it seems that the simplicity of MDLT's teachings would be a fantastic way to teach a kid without overwhelming them, but any tips would be appreciated.

    So far, I have just taught her to hold the club with the right hand lower than the left and let her swing away, but I'm thinking the tennis ball on a string might be a good next step for her to learn to swing.

    Posted:
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  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members  382WRX Points: 120Handicap: 9.2Posts: 382 Greens
    Joined:  #1261

    On -, @oukeith said:

    In case anyone is interested. Looks like there is a YouTube contributor publishing content on MDLT swing philosophy.

    Her name is Trish Beutcher. Interestingly enough, I took a lesson with her down in West Palm Beach Florida last week. She used to play on the womens "Futures Tour" back in the day and studied under Manual for 15 years. An absolutely fantastic lesson btw.

    Posted:
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