Slope of the green too steep?

I'm a high handicapper and pretty new to golf so I thought I'd come here for some insight. My understanding is that your supposed to two putt (or less) to be in regulation. That is get the first on close so you don't miss the second. On a local coarse there are two greens that are sloped so steep than a putt up the slope rolls back to the bottom if you miss the cup making for another 6-7 foot put. Rinse and repeat. On another green, a ball that was already chipped on began rolling 6 feet down the green a minute after it stopped from the chip on... no one touched it. An 18 inch putt became 4.5 feet. Are these greens ridiculous or do you think it's OK because every one has the same challenge?

Thanks.

You could just putt it 6-7 ft past the hole on purpose and see if it rolls into the hole on the way back down, or at least stops close.

It might not be a case of the green being too sloped. Pins are not meant to be cut within a certain distance of severe slopes or the edges of greens. It might also be the case that the course is mowing the greens too short creating silly green speeds the course was not designed for.

[color=#282828]My understanding is that your supposed to two putt (or less) to be in regulation. [/color]

[color=#282828][size=4]I don't understand this. [/size][/color]

[quote name='joey2aces' timestamp='1401816775' post='9422441']
[color=#282828]My understanding is that your supposed to two putt (or less) to be in regulation. [/color]

[color=#282828][size=4]I don't understand this. [/size][/color]
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Well, I was told that, for example, on a par 4 it's assumed that your on the green in two and then two putt for a par. Or, on a par five it's three strokes to get on the green then two putt for a par. Always, it's assumed, two putts. Par three, on in one and two putt. Is this correct?

Edit: The reference to "in regulation" I extrapilated from the GolfPad app I use for scoring. If I'm on the green in two on a par 4 it give a green check mark for GIR (Green in Regulation).

ok, I thought that is what you meant. I think it is just a mash up of terms. You can hit GIR (Greens In Regulation) but I have never heard "Putts in regulation". I could be wrong though.

On in regulation means you have a birdie putt. on in "under regulation" means you have an eagle putt or better.

Holes should not be cut too close to large slopes. However, the slope is there as a penalty for a bad shot or a bad putt. I would ask the head professional or grounds keeper their thoughts. Ask them to go take a look a the hole you are referring to and ask if it seem fair to them.

By chance was this on a weekend and was there a scramble tournament on the course that day? I know a lot of mid-western courses that run scrambles to raise money on weekends and they cut greens short and put in "hell" pins to make it a challenge for the 4-somes.

[quote name='Geosec' timestamp='1401817002' post='9422467']
Well, I was told that, for example, on a par 4 it's assumed that your on the green in two and then two putt for a par. Or, on a par five it's three strokes to get on the green then two putt for a par. Always, it's assumed, two putts. Par three, on in one and two putt. Is this correct?
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Yes, you are correct that the standard way to make par is to be on the green in 1, 2 or 3 shots, depending on the par, and then 2 putt.

There are certainly situations where a green can be too sloped. In general, if one hits a putt to the hole or a bit past, the expectation is that the ball should not roll back to your feet.

[quote name='Geosec' timestamp='1401815533' post='9422295']
I'm a high handicapper and pretty new to golf so I thought I'd come here for some insight. My understanding is that your supposed to two putt (or less) to be in regulation. That is get the first on close so you don't miss the second. On a local coarse there are two greens that are sloped so steep than a putt up the slope rolls back to the bottom if you miss the cup making for another 6-7 foot put. Rinse and repeat. On another green, a ball that was already chipped on began rolling 6 feet down the green a minute after it stopped from the chip on... no one touched it. An 18 inch putt became 4.5 feet. Are these greens ridiculous or do you think it's OK because every one has the same challenge?


Thanks.
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If there is no place around the cup that the ball can come to a complete rest, then this is BS. Take it up with the greenskeeper through a polite word to the proshop. In the meantime, I would be keeping a ball mark in hand and chasing the ball to the cup to mark it before it rolls away.

At our home course we do have a couple of greens which are 'too severely sloped'. We recently had Michael Hurdzan (renovated Scioto CC, designed Erin Hills, and a lot of others) come in and review the course as it sits today (40 or so years after it was initially built). The front on a couple of the greens has actually sunk due to settling of the land. This has led to greens which are too severely sloped. Hurdzan recommended either the greens be releveled ($$$$) or pins do not be cut on the front half of the green. Hurdzan stated in the report that this is a fairly common issue with older courses. Back in the 60's, 70's, 80's etc. greens were maintained different and did not run as fast/smooth. So in yesteryear, greens were designed to have greater slope than today due to green speeds. However, more current courses are designed with less slope due to the increased green speed (this all had to do with the way grass on the greens are seeded, drained, and conditioned today vs. previously). I forget the exact numbers but basically our course has the slope of old course designs with the speed of today. Making a couple of them virtually unplayable from the entire front half of the green.

So yes, greens can be too severely sloped. I do not know a lot about it and this report was the first I had heard about this problem but it made a lot of sense the way Hurdzan explained it. I wish I had a copy of the report to post the paragraph where he explained it.

There are some holes you just know that you do not hit the ball passed the hole, for example. The green slopes so severly back to front that a shot behind the hole, it not hit dead center of the cup, will role off the green. I have played a hole where I watched an 18" lip-out proceed to roll 33" off the green and another 20yards down a hill. Now, most courses are not manicured to allow that. But a better course or a private course may have the greens/fairways shaved down.

Even on that hole, there were small areas on the left/right side of the cup where you could get a ball to rest. Or about 3-4 feet below the hole if putting up hill and you were short it would rest. But putting down hill or putting up hill and going passed the hole would often lead to a longer putt, or possibly chip. And before you say, poor design, it was a Donald Ross designed par 3. Sometimes designers just want you to have a hard time on par 3's. Other times the grounds crew picks an idiotic hole location because they don't even play golf, so therefore don't know how infurating that spot could be.

That is why I say ask the pro shop to check it out. A seasoned golfer will know if it's a BS spot or not. And they may ask the grounds crew to move it and not put it back there again. I prefer courses that have quadrant greens. A green that has a clearly defined location for Thur, Fri, Sat and Sun of a tournament. The PGA tour plays courses with those kinds of greens. Often public courses are just circles of gelateness blob.

[quote]Back in the 60's, 70's, 80's etc. greens were maintained different and did not run as fast/smooth. So in yesteryear, greens were designed to have greater slope than today due to green speeds.[/quote]

That makes sense. This is an older coarse. On the front nine the badly sloped green is more than 50 years old. The steep one on the back nine was built in the eighties. It's a rural coarse in a very small town where winter rules apply year round. Nine holes costs $17.00 with a cart. There will be no fixing it for sure. I'm tempted to limit my score to three putts max on these greens since I two putt most of the time, but occasionally three put on normal greens.

Some will laugh, but we used to play automatic 2-putts on aerated greens. On my home course where we played 5 rounds a week in the summertimes I think you'd 3-putt like once all summer and that was on a miss club when you went deep on a green and the pin was in the front maybe. But we were all 0-5 handicaps.

Somebody pissed off the greenskeeper. It's always a good thing to be really nice to the greenskeeper

I do believe that the standard maximum slope of any part of a green is supposed to be no more then 4%? Please correct me if I am wrong on the number. We are currently rebuilding 9 holes of our 27 and one green has a middle slope that was at 7%. This is being removed and made to be no more then the maximum recommended 4%. It's a par 3 that will go from the current 180 yards to 135 yards with the new tee boxes. This hole will also have 2 full sets of tee boxes from 2 different locations. The 2 sets of tees will approach from different directions depending on what the greenskeeper wants to do that day..............Remember.............I told you to be nice to the greenskeeper!!

[quote name='596' timestamp='1401825761' post='9423537']
Somebody pissed off the greenskeeper. It's always a good thing to be really nice to the greenskeeper

I do believe that the standard maximum slope of any part of a green is supposed to be no more then 4%? Please correct me if I am wrong on the number. We are currently rebuilding 9 holes of our 27 and one green has a middle slope that was at 7%. This is being removed and made to be no more then the maximum recommended 4%. It's a par 3 that will go from the current 180 yards to 135 yards with the new tee boxes. This hole will also have 2 full sets of tee boxes from 2 different locations. The 2 sets of tees will approach from different directions depending on what the greenskeeper wants to do that day..............Remember.............I told you to be nice to the greenskeeper!!
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Yup so I think you are right... I didn't post any numbers because I couldn't remember specifically but I believe today's standards are 4% slope. I think 7% was the standard decades ago. At our course, which has very quick, smooth greens, we have 4 or 5 greens right at, or over, 4%. One of them I believe was 7% and the other is now like 8% or 9% on the front edge due to it sinking a few feet over the past couple of decades. The greens that are around 4% or 5% are manageable but simply placing your approach in the right spot. The greens that are 7%+ are virtually unplayable. Anything pin high or above and you are looking off the green... just this past weekend I had a pin high chip, I played a flop shot with maybe 15 feet of break, basically just threw it way up sideways and it rolled to the front fringe.

Unfortunately the course is a smaller more economical private course so the funds to redo a few greens simply are not there. Which may make you wonder why Hurdzan was there... well it was one of the first courses he helped out on. His mentor, Jack Kidwell designed the course and at the time Hurdzan was more or less a apprentice of his. I am not sure if the club payed for review or if it was Hurdzan's way of paying it back to Jack for everything he did for his career. Pretty interesting to research the relationship between Kidwell and Hurdzan.

[quote name='Geosec' timestamp='1401815533' post='9422295']
I'm a high handicapper and pretty new to golf so I thought I'd come here for some insight. My understanding is that your supposed to two putt (or less) to be in regulation. That is get the first on close so you don't miss the second. On a local coarse there are two greens that are sloped so steep than a putt up the slope rolls back to the bottom if you miss the cup making for another 6-7 foot put. Rinse and repeat. On another green, a ball that was already chipped on began rolling 6 feet down the green a minute after it stopped from the chip on... no one touched it. An 18 inch putt became 4.5 feet. Are these greens ridiculous or do you think it's OK because every one has the same challenge?


Thanks.
[/quote]If you ball is reacting like you say it is, then I think the greens are unfair. I remember a US Open doing that, and it really made a joke of the tournament, IMO. Conditions need to be fair, and in your case, they don't seem to be. I just got back from a mini trip to Treetops, an upscale golf resort in northern michigan. They had the pin location, and the speed of the greens, still in the conditions they set up for the pro am the day before. They were extremely difficult, but not unfair like you are describing. I had to sink a 12 footer on one green in order to just 4 putt, miss and it would have been a 5 putt green. I can't remember if I had ever had a 5 putt green before? Make the conditions too hard and people won't play the course, and that's money for the establishment, because most golfers are higher handicappers.

I played a course in TN that has a green similar to this. Sometimes you can hold the green on an approach shot, if it has left to right spin. But it is pretty well known you have to play your approach shot left of the green. Then it's a chipping challenge. Anything that is on the green rolling, it will right back off, unless it goes into the hole.

[quote name='Geosec' timestamp='1401815533' post='9422295']
I'm a high handicapper and pretty new to golf so I thought I'd come here for some insight. My understanding is that your supposed to two putt (or less) to be in regulation. That is get the first on close so you don't miss the second. On a local coarse there are two greens that are sloped so steep than a putt up the slope rolls back to the bottom if you miss the cup making for another 6-7 foot put. Rinse and repeat. On another green, a ball that was already chipped on began rolling 6 feet down the green a minute after it stopped from the chip on... no one touched it. An 18 inch putt became 4.5 feet. Are these greens ridiculous or do you think it's OK because every one has the same challenge?


Thanks.
[/quote]

I've seen this a couple times. I've been below the hole And putt uphill to the hole only to miss, have it roll past the hole and then back down the me.

Once was on a hole where nothing within 10' of the hole would stay put ... Just roll 10' back down the hill. Every one in my foursome picked up.

IMHO ... A poor pin placement and nothing more.

It used to happen frequently at a course we used to play. We just made a rule that if it got to within about a foot of the hole before it stopped and rolled back to you, it would be counted as a 2 putt.

Seven Canyons, Sedona, AZ..............6th hole 310 yard par 4, water all up the right side and the back right corner of the green. Very fast and undulating greens. Don't hit to the wrong place on the greens. Smart play is to hit 3 wood or long iron short of this green, especially when the pin is up front. You don't want to be over the hump in the middle of the green. I told the guy just this before he pulled driver and hit the longest drive I'd seen to that point. He drove over the water onto the back corner of the green with the pin up front. The putt has to be over 100 ft from there and up over the hump. His eagle and birdie putts never made it over the hump about 60 feet in front of him and rolled clear back to his feet. His par putt stayed up top of the hill and then he 3 putted down the hill from there. YES, drove the green and 6 putt for a triple bogey.

I had many many putts and approaches roll clean off the greens and down into the fairways.

Here's the hole. Note the huge bump in that green.

There is a course sort of close to me that has greens as you describe. The members take a weird sort of pride in 3 and 4 putting. Aiming a putt 10 feet above the hole, hoping the roll back catches the hole is just stupid to me, but I don't have to play there.