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Start the downswing by disassociating the hips from the upper body.


TB07

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In my opinion one of the most important and difficult aspects of the swing is the transition from backswing to downswing. More specifically the disassociation of the lower body from the upper body. This movement if done correctly, can cure many faults. The better this move, the less important or perfect your other positions have to be.

 

Here's a video that explains my thoughts on this move....

 

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MIzHjc-QA2o

 

And a drill to achieve....

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9tGV-cIetkc

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[quote name='stagalog' timestamp='1403989414' post='9598051']
Thanks for sharing this drill as I need to remind myself of this lower/upper dissociation when I take long breaks between rounds or trips to the range.
[/quote]

Why do you think you lose it a bit from time away? Is it a flexibility thing in that you need to get loose and stretch (as I do). Or is it a habit issue in that your body is not used to doing it all the time? When I don't get the separation I tend to get the club attacking too steep. Ill recovery and shallow late but that leads to pushes and pull hooks.

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This is something I've been working on for a few weeks. I got the golf mtrx app and it was telling me I was arriving at impact with 15-20 degrees open hips and no separation. I was able to get some good numbers from the drills it prescribed, but I still can't do it right.

I didn't know about the pressure down to start the rotation. Thanks!

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http://www.zerolinegolf.com/

It measures hip rotation, hip rotation speed and hips at impact. Pretty cool for only a buck. It's based on the kinetic chain, where the hips have to decelerate before impact. My hips were decelerating exactly at impact. I think because I had no separation, I just turned hips, shoulders, arms at the same time.

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[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055010' post='9601581']
http://www.zerolinegolf.com/

It measures hip rotation, hip rotation speed and hips at impact. Pretty cool for only a buck. It's based on the kinetic chain, where the hips have to decelerate before impact. My hips were decelerating exactly at impact. I think because I had no separation, I just turned hips, shoulders, arms at the same time.
[/quote]

Exactly. If the hips start, shoulders and arms will speed up into and trough impact. It's not like you TRY and decel. It's just happens with the correct sequence. Thanks for the link.

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[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1404050302' post='9601277']
[quote name='stagalog' timestamp='1403989414' post='9598051']
Thanks for sharing this drill as I need to remind myself of this lower/upper dissociation when I take long breaks between rounds or trips to the range.
[/quote]

Why do you think you lose it a bit from time away? Is it a flexibility thing in that you need to get loose and stretch (as I do). Or is it a habit issue in that your body is not used to doing it all the time? When I don't get the separation I tend to get the club attacking too steep. Ill recovery and shallow late but that leads to pushes and pull hooks.
[/quote]

At this point, I don't play regularly enough for this move to be fully ingrained.
As such, it's on my personal list of key reminders:
- check strong grip
- full shoulder turn
- pause/drop at the top
- dissociative pivot

I am definitely prone to an OOT move when I don't get that lower/upper body separation.

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[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1404055450' post='9601629']
[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055010' post='9601581']
http://www.zerolinegolf.com/

It measures hip rotation, hip rotation speed and hips at impact. Pretty cool for only a buck. It's based on the kinetic chain, where the hips have to decelerate before impact. My hips were decelerating exactly at impact. I think because I had no separation, I just turned hips, shoulders, arms at the same time.
[/quote]

Exactly. If the hips start, shoulders and arms will speed up into and trough impact. It's not like you TRY and decel. It's just happens with the correct sequence. Thanks for the link.
[/quote]

Oh so don't try to decelerate. It will happen if i swing correctly. Good to know because I've been trying to decelerate, which obviously was a bad idea because the hips decelerate in something like .1 second.

Srixon Z 785 9.5 Atmos Tour Spec Black 60X
Srixon Z F85 15 Atmos Tour Spec Black 60X
Srixon Z U85 18 Steelfiber i110 S
Srixon Z FORGED 3-9 Steelfiber i110 S
Cleveland RTX4 46 Steelfiber i110 S
Cleveland RTX4 Forged 50 Steelfiber i125 S
Cleveland RTX4 58 Steelfiber i125 S
Cleveland Huntington Beach Soft Premier 11S

Bettinardi QB6 DASS High Polish
Srixon ZStar XV Yellow

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[quote name='tm3' timestamp='1404057729' post='9601787']
interesting drill.

whenever i have tried to "lead with the hips" or get more "hip action" i definitely hit the ball further.

but about half the time the ball goes push OB.
[/quote]

you are probably just sliding your hips from a closed hip position, in to out hip movement

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[quote name='tm3' timestamp='1404057729' post='9601787']
interesting drill.

whenever i have tried to "lead with the hips" or get more "hip action" i definitely hit the ball further.

but about half the time the ball goes push OB.
[/quote]

Assuming the hips move correctly, you then need the shoulders moving/rotating properly. To avoid the stuck/push shot.

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[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055723' post='9601657']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1404055450' post='9601629']
[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055010' post='9601581']
http://www.zerolinegolf.com/

It measures hip rotation, hip rotation speed and hips at impact. Pretty cool for only a buck. It's based on the kinetic chain, where the hips have to decelerate before impact. My hips were decelerating exactly at impact. I think because I had no separation, I just turned hips, shoulders, arms at the same time.
[/quote]

Exactly. If the hips start, shoulders and arms will speed up into and trough impact. It's not like you TRY and decel. It's just happens with the correct sequence. Thanks for the link.
[/quote]

Oh so don't try to decelerate. It will happen if i swing correctly. Good to know because I've been trying to decelerate, which obviously was a bad idea because the hips decelerate in something like .1 second.
[/quote]

Setup with your arms crossed over chest in golf posture about 1 inch from a wall. Take your backswing position allowing the trail hip to hit the wall. Then keep your shoulders where they are, but allow your lead glute to hit the wall (don't allow trail knee to move outward, let it move toward lead knee). Hold that stretched position for a second. Then fire your shoulders through. This is the sequence and decelerating one segment while the other segment accelerates. Notice the stretching is what causes the decel/accel. Essentially the separation causes the deceleration. The hips reach a point they can no longer go WITHOUT the shoulders.

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[quote name='ClarkGrswld4' timestamp='1404063120' post='9602149']
I'm wondering what will happen if I start in the drill position and make a swing that way? I might try it out on the range soon.
[/quote]

It will probably restrict your backswing somewhat. If your not very flexible I would pre-set it, feel it, then go to setup and swing. If your flexible, you can pre set it maybe 1/3 of the way.

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Some of the disassociation you mention should occur in the backswing I think, as the legs settle like Snead, and the shoulders turn a few more degrees

Great instruction

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[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1404065135' post='9602243']
Some of the disassociation you mention should occur in the backswing I think, as the legs settle like Snead, and the shoulders turn a few more degrees

Great instruction
[/quote]

Yes I agree. There really is no backswing or downswing. We just use backswing/downswing etc. to break things down and analyize. The reality is that the golfswing is one continuous motion.

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[quote name='golfoh' timestamp='1404076657' post='9603047']
Wow, this is an alien feel for me. I tend to early extend pretty badly, so I don't get into this postion in my normal swing. I also find that my low back and left hip/glute are tight when doing this. I think I need to work on flexibility!
[/quote]

Probably a combination of flexibility and new movement. Feel is key in that once you do it slow, and feel it, then you can try and replicate it.

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Very intruiging.I have definitely observed these motions in Tiger's swing.Especially in slow motion.He does pressure "down" into the ground while rotate at the same time.
So here is my question to TB07....For average Joe's who turn everything together and have no sense of their lower body,is it possible for them to learn it?That is,the separation you speak of here.I mean,have you ever witnessed an adult with years of bad habits actually start to use their hips correctly?

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[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1403977286' post='9597169']
In my opinion one of the most important and difficult aspects of the swing is the transition from backswing to downswing. More specifically the disassociation of the lower body from the upper body. This movement if done correctly, can cure many faults. The better this move, the less important or perfect your other positions have to be.

Here's a video that explains my thoughts on this move....


[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MIzHjc-QA2o"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MIzHjc-QA2o[/url]

And a drill to achieve....

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9tGV-cIetkc"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=9tGV-cIetkc[/url]
[/quote]

Funny that this topic just came up, I recently started working on a similar drill from another video I found on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKAspJzpYGc

It is really amazing how this initial movement causes a lot of things to happen naturally, such as lag and an in to out swing. For years I have been trying to work on this but on video it is really clear that even though I'm initiating with my hips my shoudlers/arms would just turn with the hips. I've managed to shoot some decent scores but it all really came down to really good timing and manipulating positions. Since working on this drill I'm not so focused on mechanics, honestly I feel like when I do it right, it just "happen" from the top of the swing. And I'm hitting it further.

On my home course I shot a 42 the other day for nine, and that's with a double bogey on the last (basically made a mess around the green after realizing a bird would've put me in the 30s, which I have never done for nine wholes). But from a ball striking prospective it was totally possible. Now I'm adding stretches and core strengthening exercises to my workout routine to get stronger/more flexible with this move.

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[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1404058973' post='9601883'][quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055723' post='9601657']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1404055450' post='9601629']
[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055010' post='9601581']
http://www.zerolinegolf.com/

It measures hip rotation, hip rotation speed and hips at impact. Pretty cool for only a buck. It's based on the kinetic chain, where the hips have to decelerate before impact. My hips were decelerating exactly at impact. I think because I had no separation, I just turned hips, shoulders, arms at the same time.
[/quote]

Exactly. If the hips start, shoulders and arms will speed up into and trough impact. It's not like you TRY and decel. It's just happens with the correct sequence. Thanks for the link.
[/quote]

Oh so don't try to decelerate. It will happen if i swing correctly. Good to know because I've been trying to decelerate, which obviously was a bad idea because the hips decelerate in something like .1 second.
[/quote]

Setup with your arms crossed over chest in golf posture about 1 inch from a wall. Take your backswing position allowing the trail hip to hit the wall. Then keep your shoulders where they are, but allow your lead glute to hit the wall (don't allow trail knee to move outward, let it move toward lead knee). Hold that stretched position for a second. Then fire your shoulders through. This is the sequence and decelerating one segment while the other segment accelerates. Notice the stretching is what causes the decel/accel. Essentially the separation causes the deceleration. The hips reach a point they can no longer go WITHOUT the
shoulders.[/quote]

When you say about the lead glute touching the wall, I assume you do this while also keeping the trail glute against the wall as well? Is this the meaning behind the term "creating space for the arms to swing"?

If u start one inch from the wall, then you end up with both glutes on the wall, haven't you just moved your tush line? I assume this is ok?

Regards Shane.

Find the extreme's and go directly in between.

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[quote name='Shane1' timestamp='1404126284' post='9606197']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1404058973' post='9601883'][quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055723' post='9601657']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1404055450' post='9601629']
[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1404055010' post='9601581']
http://www.zerolinegolf.com/

It measures hip rotation, hip rotation speed and hips at impact. Pretty cool for only a buck. It's based on the kinetic chain, where the hips have to decelerate before impact. My hips were decelerating exactly at impact. I think because I had no separation, I just turned hips, shoulders, arms at the same time.
[/quote]

Exactly. If the hips start, shoulders and arms will speed up into and trough impact. It's not like you TRY and decel. It's just happens with the correct sequence. Thanks for the link.
[/quote]

Oh so don't try to decelerate. It will happen if i swing correctly. Good to know because I've been trying to decelerate, which obviously was a bad idea because the hips decelerate in something like .1 second.
[/quote]

Setup with your arms crossed over chest in golf posture about 1 inch from a wall. Take your backswing position allowing the trail hip to hit the wall. Then keep your shoulders where they are, but allow your lead glute to hit the wall (don't allow trail knee to move outward, let it move toward lead knee). Hold that stretched position for a second. Then fire your shoulders through. This is the sequence and decelerating one segment while the other segment accelerates. Notice the stretching is what causes the decel/accel. Essentially the separation causes the deceleration. The hips reach a point they can no longer go WITHOUT the
shoulders.[/quote]

When you say about the lead glute touching the wall, I assume you do this while also keeping the trail glute against the wall as well? Is this the meaning behind the term "creating space for the arms to swing"?

If u start one inch from the wall, then you end up with both glutes on the wall, haven't you just moved your tush line? I assume this is ok?

Regards Shane.
[/quote]

Yes. The hips are an ellipse plus you are lowering in the downswing which increases your spine angle. Now it depends on your flexibility as to wether the lead glute will reach all the way to the wall. Most people won't get entirely there without the shoulders opening. Just go as much as you can WITHOUT opening the shoulders.

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[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1404102535' post='9605547']
Very intruiging.I have definitely observed these motions in Tiger's swing.Especially in slow motion.He does pressure "down" into the ground while rotate at the same time.
So here is my question to TB07....For average Joe's who turn everything together and have no sense of their lower body,is it possible for them to learn it?That is,the separation you speak of here.I mean,have you ever witnessed an adult with years of bad habits actually start to use their hips correctly?
[/quote]

Yes. It absolutely can be learned and re-trained. Like anything else will take correct repetitions and the required mobility. The average Joe won't separate as much as Tiger, but can separate some amount.

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