Should there be a standard green speed on public courses?

I have played multiple courses lately with wildly varying green speeds. For me, putts are harder to make on slow greens. I feel like I can't trust my stroke and subconsciously must swing harder, therefore causing me to close the putter face, etc. I believe the game is meant to be played on fast and firm greens like in the old country. I know courses cater to the general public, but I believe that if you can't putt fast greens then don't play. I might be in the minority here but what do you think? should there be a minimum standard speed around 9 or 10 at least?

I just ask that all the greens on the course be a similar speed.. I'll figure the rest out myself.

9-10 is pretty much unplayable for the majority of folks who visit public courses.

Exactly that, public courses should be kept around 8 so that the wannabe tour pro hackers don't line up 2 or 3 4 footers on every green at Jim Furyk speed.

Then justlie and post 10.5 on the noticeboard and everyone will be happy, 80+% of people have no idea of how quick a legit 10-11 stimp is anyway.

If it doesn't feel like green construction paper on concrete, it's not a green.

And who exactly is going to keep the standard"? Who is going around to all the public courses and measure with a stimp meter to keep them all the same. And what grounds crew is going to change their routine constantly based on tons of different conditions to keep them at the standard?

Green speed depends on alot of things. How they are cut. What they are cut with. The length they are cut at. Are they rolled and how often. Type of grass. Time of year. Weather. Good luck trying to keep all public courses at the same speed, no matter what speed that is.

When you see the PGA Tour at a course, a ton of work has gone into keeping those greens at a consistant speed, taking into consideration the items listed above. Those greens don't run like that just because they do. The grounds crew MAKES them run that speed at that time of the year with the current weather conditions. That stuff changes constantly.

We have 27 holes. 9 were rebuilt last year and the greens run fast. 9 is being rebuilt as we speak with an opening in Nov. They will be exactly the same as the ones rebuilt last year. The 3rd 9....yikes.....who ever built them used fairway grass. I don't care what we do....they run like velcro.

Now are we really going to tell every single public course that their greens MUST run at a specific stimp measurement? Really? Tell a private businessman that owns a golf course, open to the public, that he must now close since his greens don't meet the "standard".

No. Not all courses have the same conditions, let alone differences in weather throughout the year. There is no "standard".

Yes there should be.


Put it down and hit it in the hole. if you play off 23 you can read it all you want. It won't matter.

I understand the business aspect of this completely. I know it is unrealistic to hold any kind of standard in the public course world. I should have worded it more like they should want fast greens to keep the game a little more original. If 9-10 is unplayable for the majority, which I don't think it is if they use their head, maybe they should learn how to play the game before playing. I know it sounds harsh and really goes against the business model for majority of courses. It just seems backwards to me that the game caters more to hackers than better players.

For me the difference in speed is asuch a part of the game as the difference in course design. That said, i do feel that public courses could do a better job of keeping consistent green speeds.

All courses should have greens that roll true and they should have a fairly consistent speed from green to green at the same course--- I think that's a given most can agree on.

But public courses should NOT have fast greens and they should have receptive pin placements, otherwise it contributes to slow play. Whereas a private club can get away with faster greens and trickier pin placement because the members know the greens.

Also fast greens are not only harder to play, but are more limiting for pin placement, limit the amount of contour of a green (flat greens are boring to play and ugly), adds $$$'s to maintenance & water costs and makes greens more receptive to disease.

Great GolfWRX article was written on the topic of fast greens.
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/208183/our-games-obsession-with-fast-greens-is-killing-us/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...-is-killing-us/[/url]


Heck if ultra fast greens are an obsession for some, perhaps we should stop using grass and just put green felt over concrete.

So they should all charge the same rate?

[quote name='monster967' timestamp='1405776893' post='9734689']
I understand the business aspect of this completely. I know it is unrealistic to hold any kind of standard in the public course world. I should have worded it more like they should want fast greens to keep the game a little more original. If 9-10 is unplayable for the majority, which I don't think it is if they use their head, maybe they should learn how to play the game before playing. I know it sounds harsh and really goes against the business model for majority of courses. It just seems backwards to me that the game caters more to hackers than better players.
[/quote]

Hackers make up the majority of golfers ... You cater to the majority. .... What's backwards about that?

While we're standardizing green speeds, we should standardize all courses and they should all be redesigned like the courses in the old country.

Variety is a good thing.

All greens should be the same size and shape too. And all the same distances. I don't want to play a 440 yard par 4 at one course, and then have to play a 380 yard par 4 at another.

[quote name='monster967' timestamp='1405742884' post='9733399']
I have played multiple courses lately with wildly varying green speeds. For me, putts are harder to make on slow greens. I feel like I can't trust my stroke and subconsciously must swing harder, therefore causing me to close the putter face, etc. I believe the game is meant to be played on fast and firm greens like in the old country. I know courses cater to the general public, but I believe that if you can't putt fast greens then don't play. I might be in the minority here but what do you think? should there be a minimum standard speed around 9 or 10 at least?
[/quote]

Most courses in the UK putt slow, including links courses unless its a dry summer. You can't have fast greens in a windy country.

America's manicured country clubs aren't the standard by which the rest of the world plays golf. In fact, the more one plays international links courses, the more one finds these "ladies carpeted living rooms" over here to be a borderline abomination to the heritage of golf.

Augusta takes it to the extreme and in so doing gives a whole new meaning to manicured, but so many other "great courses" are anything but. The Australian is an amazing and historic course, but in the fevered pursuit of "manicuring" everything they have gotten ridiculous. The Marshall threatened to throw us off the course because there was a tiny FJ embroidered on the back lip of my golf socks. Really? But, that's the manicured mentality that left unchecked can spread into every facet of the game.

"Stimpson invented the Stimpmeter it in 1935, after watching golfers who were flummoxed by the speed of the greens during the 1935 U.S. Open at Oakmont Country Club. Stimpson realized that golf course superintendents needed a way to measure green speeds in order ensure that each green on a golf course rolled at the same speed."

The Stimpmeter wasn't even formally adopted by the USGA for over 40 years after it was developed.

The intent of the Stimpmeter was to allow each course greens keeper to standardize each course individually as a stand alone entity. The Stimpmeter was not invented to encourage the creation of any global green speed standard and certainly was not developed to encourage the pursuit of speed demon super fast greens as a global standard. But, that is exactly what has happened and it is getting worse.

How about standardized sand in the traps? How about standardized fairway widths in the landing zone off the tee? How about standardized rough ... same type of grass cut to the same length? How about eliminating domed greens?

Let every course stand alone. (But, fine by me if you want to rule all Pete Dye courses illegal.)

Really?

This reminds me of my round the other day. Played with a nice older guy, but he complained about the greens being slow, all the way up to #18.
Ummmm......adjust already?

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is FOOT TRAFFIC and its effects on closely mown greens. 10-12 stimp greens would be a mess on a muni with all the foot dragging and traffic.

Not all course are constructed the same. slope of green and what is playable and unplayable. Then you have staffing issues for up keep and maintenance.

I go with make all the greens the same speed and adjust your game.

[quote name='SwingBlade' timestamp='1405791565' post='9735997']
America's manicured country clubs aren't the standard by which the rest of the world plays golf. In fact, the more one plays international links courses, the more one finds these "ladies carpeted living rooms" over here to be a borderline abomination to the heritage of golf.

Augusta takes it to the extreme and in so doing gives a whole new meaning to manicured, but so many other "great courses" are anything but. The Australian is an amazing and historic course, but in the fevered pursuit of "manicuring" everything ...
[/quote]

I'm watching the "British" Open right now and the greens look pretty manicured to me.

[quote name='monster967' timestamp='1405776893' post='9734689']
I understand the business aspect of this completely....... It just seems backwards to me that the game caters more to hackers than better players.
[/quote]

It appears that you indeed do NOT understand the business aspect of it. The VAST majority of people playing golf, and subsequently supporting those business owners, ARE hackers. By NOT keeping the greens unplayable for the hackers, they are doing exactly what they should be doing from a business perspective, which is keeping your core client base happy.

For the private club designed for better players, where in some cases a specific handicap may be required or you may need to prove your abilities to the director before being considered for membership, sure it makes sense because your core client base is better golfers who are more likely to be able to handle greens like glass.

As a single digit handicap, I prefer fast greens that require little effort to get the ball started on line and keep it there. My uncle, who falls into the category of your average hacker, who shoots high 80s to high 90s on a regular basis, prefers slower greens where he can pick a line and not worry about rolling it off the green.

It can be equated to club manufacturers. Lefties , like myself, constantly complain about the horrible selection of left handed clubs offered by the manufacturers. The available selection of models across all manufacturers combined for lefties might be 25% of what is available for righties, and that's a very generous guess. As much as we complain, we all know the reason why. Their core client base is right handed. The expense required to supply 3-5% of golfers with every model would out weigh the returns on investment in regards to tooling. They would be losing money.

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1405790909' post='9735943']
[quote name='monster967' timestamp='1405742884' post='9733399']
I have played multiple courses lately with wildly varying green speeds. For me, putts are harder to make on slow greens. I feel like I can't trust my stroke and subconsciously must swing harder, therefore causing me to close the putter face, etc. I believe the game is meant to be played on fast and firm greens like in the old country. I know courses cater to the general public, but I believe that if you can't putt fast greens then don't play. I might be in the minority here but what do you think? should there be a minimum standard speed around 9 or 10 at least?
[/quote]

Most courses in the UK putt slow, including links courses unless its a dry summer. You can't have fast greens in a windy country.
[/quote]

And we spend so so so much less on course maintainance. The greenstaff at an average club will be somewhere around only 3-5 employees. If suddenly there was 100 dollars added on to membership fees for the year to pay 2 extra staff for more frequent rolling/mowing/applying growth regulators there would be carnage.

There are a lot of different factors affecting green speed as many have mentioned all pretty good and truthful answers.
I depends a lot on how much play the course has and the climate. Any super will tell you the lower they cut a green the greater the chance of "stress damage" will occur.
It also depends on the general contours and undelation of the greens
It may also depend on the clientell playing there on a regular basis. I got educated by a super on that at a course I workd at. I said the greens were too slow I knew the cutting height because I was the equipment manager at the time for two courses the company owned. He told me that the people that play here are not good golfers at all and if you got the greens above 10 there would be numerious complaints. To show me he gave me an example on one hole he had gotten a bunch of complaints because several people had putted in the lake. This had been several years before when he had lowered the grass height by .025 from what he normally cut at. He had that problem and he said the greens were at about 9 1/2 maybe 10 if that.
Another point if you dont generally have decent golfers they will complain about greens being too fast and a lot of 3 putts and more slowing the course down. And in the golf business you have to go with the general consensus of customers to run a profitable operation. Most golfers are not as skilled as most of us on WRX and do not practice and keep up with the game as we do.

Minimum speed? No.

Standard....eh, probably not. That's the game of golf....greens speed changes, fairway firmness changes, rough grows and get's cut, temps change and on and on.

Adjust or die.

I do find it funny that the OP can't putt on slow greens but he thinks that anyone who can't put on fast greens should quit the game. That one is absolutely priceless, thanks for the laugh.

Most people don't realize just how quick 10 on the stimp is, people seem to think that because the pros seem to play around 11.5 that there greens must be right around 10 when they are likely sub 8

Give me a true roll and a somewhat consistent speed throughout the whole course ill be a happy camper. Played Wildhorse in Gothenburg Ne last weekend stimp was running around 13 where as normal courses I play in Kearney are probably around a 7 or 8.

It's funny how sensitive people get about the game of golf. It's a fact that putts roll more true on better faster greens. Below average players would likely not putt any worse on faster greens. I think it's ridiculous how much money is spent in the us on manicuring the courses. I say let the rough, fairway, and fescue grow longer, water a little less where the climate allows, and use the money on the greens instead. Now I'm not saying every course should be lightning fast, but super slow greens do nothing for the game. Even if they were rolled another 2 to 3 times per year to get the bumps out and speed it up a little would be a huge improvement. Like I originally said, I play many different courses so I have no choice but to adjust and I do that just fine. I should have asked who likes slow greens?

[quote name='MiniJ83' timestamp='1405788450' post='9735747']All greens should be the same size and shape too. And all the same distances. I don't want to play a 440 yard par 4 at one course, and then have to play a 380 yard par 4 at another.[/quote]that would really simplify club selection and speed up play. I would also like to impose a rough length standard. Standardized par3 lengths would be nice as well, can dial in that pin seeker shot.

Coming from someone who's family has been in the golf course business for many, many years, the shorter you cut a green the harder and more expensive it gets to maintain it. Add that with the fact that green designs vary greatly from location to location it can be near impossible to cut greens really low without destroying the surface in a matter of days. One of our courses in particular that is a very popular course will never have super fast greens but we go out of our way to top dress our greens weekly to fill in the imperfections and give the ball a smooth roll.

We like to look at it as would a typical player rather putt on a mid speed green that will roll true or a super quick but bumpy green with patchy burnt surfaces?

Alright OP, we'll give you the standard if you give us the hacker holes. Deal?