Hogan's Swing Controls

 Silky ·  
SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2014 in Hogan's Heroes Swing Forum #1


Right palm facing the sky,rotated open right forearm and elbow leading in transition is a WORLD CLASS MOVE that Very few golfers can actually achieve.It takes superior and gifted athleticism.Go ahead and try to implement that move into your swing.Good luck and check back in 10 years from now! Bet you won't have progressed at all.



Ben Hogan was an incredibly gifted athlete and his flexibility was just as amazing!Why people try to copy his swing behooves me.Why don't they just go up on a skyscraper and jump off.If they flap their wings like a goose,they might actually start to fly!





Like MJ?

https://www.youtube....h?v=3D5s7T4T1ng



That’s world class... gifted.



Right palm facing the sky, rotated open right forearm and elbow leading in transition.....not so much.
Very nice video,I enjoyed it.Being a Chicagoan, I remember MJ very well.

I do still firmly believe it to be a world class move that VERY few golfers can actually do and I mean do it effectively with control.




GB1973,

You may be correct. I have heard Ben Hogans action called the most difficult move in all sport, because it requires our hands to work in opposition to what they are genetically designed to do.



.
Does not surprise me at all.To lay the club off that much in transition(the way Hogan did) is extremely unnatural and difficult.It's almost like swinging a baseball bat horizontally for the first foot of transition and then somehow managing to get down to the ball as well.Like I have said before...his swing was uncanny!




I do not believe in magic.



How did Hogan get down to the ball from the laid off position?

How did Hogan close the open club face at the laid off position?



Some people will say a golf swing is so fast, there is no time for mid swing adjustment. To this I say BS. See the baseball swing for example, where batters need to adjust their swings to the flying balls. There are feedback/action control loops in a golf swing.



If that is the case, then, what and how did Hogan control his swing without interfering with his powerful and free flow rotation?





Let's set off the firecrackers. No missiles please.
Posted:
Tagged:
«1
2

Comments

  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #2
    Facts



    Hogan had one of the fullest rotary swings that can be observed. He planted his pivot and aligned the rotation axle early together with the laid off position from the top, he fired the left hip to start the downswing initiating a forceful rotary swing from the top. There are many debates about this instruction of his in the 5 Lessons, that it is misleading and created a generation of over the top and slicing golfers.





    post-100036-12695535487701.jpg





    For it is a physical fact that centrifugal force will fling the left arm and club outward moving in a plane perpendicular to the rotational axle.



    Conjecture

    In addition to and before gluing his right elbow to the pivot, Hogan actively moved his right arm from the top in a hammering fashion, thus, creating a linear momentum of the left arm and club downward along the pivot in a direction orthogonal to the rotation plane.



    Since the pivot is tilted away from the target, this hammering action provides a component of momentum along the target line that helps propel the golf ball. In addition, it provides a one-directional control for the club to meet the ball squarely.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #3
    What do I mean when I say "one directional control".

    The brain processes feedback/action control without we being conscious of all the time, in lifting the budweiser to you lips, for example. An example of the 2-directional control is that of drawing a horizontal straight line to a point, if you are too high you via down and if you are too low you via up. An example of the 1-directional control is drawing a curve from the top down and left to right to a point, say. In this example, the corrective actions are just less down or more downward while you are moving the pen horizontally from left to right. You can watch the following youtube video where Bradley Hughes explains the concept in his pen and paper demonstration. One directional control is obviously applicable in a golf swing when corrective actions involve steering massive objects.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYHZMx5Mpo8
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 26, 2014 #4
    [media=]



    Moe Norman might be exaggerating the move, but is this how Hogan got down to the impact plane?



    In Moe Norman's own words "vertical drop, horizontal tug".
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 26, 2014 #5
    I just tried the Moe Norman's Master Move on my backyard net.

    Wow! This is what I have been looking for. I have found it and it is more than I have expected.



    Moe Norman's Master Move of "vertical drop, horizontal tug" is the real deal.



    From this I have just experienced for the first time in a golf swing, the feel of what the trailing side must do (the vertical drop) to accommodate the leading side firing from the top of swing (the horizontal tug).



    For myself, it is not the dropping of the right arm, it is not the external rotation of the right arm, it is the whole right side dropping while the left side initiates the swing like Hogan. I was not conscious of what the right side was doing after the dropping and just found myself after the effortless impact, fully rotated with the right arm straight and high. The feel was like my right side is behind the club driving it forward like a tennis forehand.



    I started golf with the old doctrine of left side swinging with right side supporting. I always have doubt why our dominant side must play only such supporting role. Now I have a taste of the swing where both sides working independently to their full range, yet coordinated.



    I do not know but I am pretty sure that Hogan had this Master Move.



    I will definitely try to rediscover and ingrain this Master Move into my swing.
    Posted:
  • JobuJobu Members  1147WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,147 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #6
    the right shoulder must stay on top of the hands in order to square the face without jumping, stalling or flipping.
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #7
    Thank you Jobu for posting. I thought I was talking to myself alone. Looking back, with the proposed hacker like method of hammering down with the right arm, now, I feel like a fool.



    I ponder seriously about your statement of keeping the right shoulder above the hands. Can you please elaborate more?

    I try to keep the right elbow in front of the body throughout the swing. That effectively lines up the right shoulder, the right elbow and the hands in a plane perpendicular to the shoulder girdle.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 27, 2014 #8
    I spent some more time trying to unravel Moe Norman's Master Move. It is easier if we eliminate other factors that may obscure the Move.

    May I use the Monte's video "The ultimate golf lesson: Plane and Release by Feels" to illustrate.



    [media=]



    In the video, Monte simplifies the demonstration by ignoring the gap between the top of swing plane and the impact plane and of course the gap between them - the upper-right-arm gap.



    Now using Monte in the video as our model, imagine the top of swing configuration where Monte turns the shoulder about 90 degrees with the left arm the club shaft and the shoulder girdle all lie in the same plane. Doesn't this look like the Hogan's top of swing laid off configuration? Now had Monte power up the pivot driven rotation, without additional actions, the club head would be too high and miss the ball.



    Instead of standing straight up, Monte could tilt the spine to his right in the reverse K setup. Now Monte could power the rotation up again, the club head would still too high to meet the ball. Secondary tilt does not help in bridging the upper right arm gap.



    Now Monte could power up the rotation again at the same time dropping down his entire right side. His hands now are in motion under two orthogonal forces, the horizontal tugging by the left shoulder, the vertical down pulling by his dropping right side. and of course now the orbit of the club head will be lowered to eventually meet the ball.



    That in essence is the Moe Norman's Master Move, in my opinion.



    Like in jumping, I suspect that the loading of the right side also put the right side in flexion ready to go into extension to drive the club forward.
    Posted:
  • JobuJobu Members  1147WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,147 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #9
    Silky wrote:


    Thank you Jobu for posting. I thought I was talking to myself alone. Looking back, with the proposed hacker like method of hammering down with the right arm, now, I feel like a fool.



    I ponder seriously about your statement of keeping the right shoulder above the hands. Can you please elaborate more?

    I try to keep the right elbow in front of the body throughout the swing. That effectively lines up the right shoulder, the right elbow and the hands in a plane perpendicular to the shoulder girdle.




    The shoulders for the most part control the release. For example, if you drop the right shoulder, the hands will be to side and the left wrist will want to face the sky. The clubhead will be wide open at impact unless the golfer manipulates the hands. When the hands work under the right shoulder, the left wrist will turn down, squaring the face in a very predictable manner. Take a look at Tiger and his right shoulder, up to about 3:00.



    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 27, 2014 #10
    Good point Jobu, now it is clear to me.



    Perhaps, Hogan's action of "rotating the club like a baseball bat" coming down might prevent the problem that you raised that the club would be wide open at impact.



    I view this action as the rolling of the left hand from dorsiflexion at the top of swing to palmaflexion before the release, independent from the "horizontal tugging" and "vertical dropping".



    Hogan seemed to try to control all the actions and leave very few to mother nature.
    Posted:
  • JobuJobu Members  1147WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,147 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #11
    Silky wrote:


    Good point Jobu, now it is clear to me.



    Perhaps, Hogan's action of "rotating the club like a baseball bat" coming down might prevent the problem that you raised that the club would be wide open at impact.



    I view this action as the rolling of the left hand from dorsiflexion at the top of swing to palmaflexion before the release, independent from the "horizontal tugging" and "vertical dropping".



    Hogan seemed to try to control all the actions and leave very few to mother nature.




    That's the focus. Hogan couldn't stall his swing or his clubface would be wide open. Gotta keep the hands and right shoulder moving. It's not fighting mother nature though. He is going where gravity would take him, IF nothing slows down. The hands do not consciously roll, gravity throws the toe of the club out, as long as the right shoulder stays on top.
    Posted:
  • BrianBBrianB Members  219WRX Points: 1Posts: 219 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jul 27, 2014 #12
    My observations:



    1. I don't like the hammer analogy, since almost noone swings a hammer sidearm or underhanded. The right arm move here is more a sidearm throw toward the target, with the elbow leading. There is no downward pull there.



    2. I disagree with the notion that there is centrifugal force pulling the arms to a higher plane. There isn't any, because the swing is not occuring on that axis. The body may turn like a merry-go-round, but the swing doesn't occur around the same axis. From the start, it is more like a ferris wheel. Try swinging with just your left arm; you'll find it is much more comfortable and produces more speed swinging down at the ground rather than perpendicular to the torso. The left arm is leading this swing, that's what pulls the path down to the ball.



    3. What many people miss is how Hogan's hips clear the path for the right arm. There is no pull of the hips towards the back foot in the backswing, in fact the right hip moves slightly more towards the target. Then there is an agressive move towards the target (and back to the left heel) with the left hip to start the downswing. The left shoulder is pulling up with the left hip at this point, but this is pulling the left arm down towards the ball. The left shoulder rotates from just over the right toe to back over the left heel. This natural ferris wheel swing rotation is what pulls the right side down and through.



    4. Moe Norman's drop and tug move is required for him because he doesn't move his hips like Hogan. With Hogan this is driven more from the hips and the left side. Moe's move may be easier to duplicate, but should also produce less power.



    5. A couple of videos from Wayne DeFrancesco. The first is Bobby Jones, but a similar move down towards the ball, with room created by an agressive shift forward by the hips.



    http://youtu.be/j1_ZljBCcBA?t=11m4

    http://youtu.be/GnCp4f458x8?t=10m
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 28, 2014 #13
    BrianB,



    I appreciate your comments very much. I hope that you will treat my response below as from someone stimulating his old worn out brain by trying to understand good golf swings. Of course, there are many good models, roughly two camps that of two plane and one plane. Yes, I have Hardy's book. But I do not agree with many of his methodology.



    I do use the two-plane model too, where a Ferris wheel like motion is followed by a merry go round motion. It is interesting that there is a mid swing transition where the instantaneous radius of the hands is reduced and the swing plane of the shaft is shifted. That should help in generating powerful release of the club head like a tow truck coming down fast on a highway and encountering a sharp turn.



    In this thread we focus on the one-plane model where it is merry go round all the way.



    You might argue that this is not a good model, I can accept that. But the model does exist and is used in practice, for example, the bat swings of professional baseball players and, of course, Ben Hogan's golf swing.



    But let clarified the issue of the left arm swinging down relative to the pivot. That can happen in two ways by gravity and by the left shoulder. But for the left shoulder to pull the left arm down, then, the left arm has to be higher than the orbit of the left shoulder to create a moment arm rotating the left arm down. This method may be used in a two-plane model, but not in Hogan model, for at the top, there appears the laid off configuration with the left shoulder the left hand and the club shaft all lie in a plane.



    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • lonestar48lonestar48 Members  189WRX Points: 0Posts: 189
    Joined:  #14
    Great conversation gentlemen! There is definitely an audience here...
    Posted:
    Titleist 910 D2, 8.5*, Aldila RIP-stiff
    Titleist 910F 15*, 19*
    Mizuno MP-64, 3-PW
    Mizuno MP T-4 50*, 56* Vokey 60*
    PING Anser
  • no where to lookno where to look Members  493WRX Points: 0Posts: 493
    Joined:  edited Jul 28, 2014 #15
    BrianB wrote:


    My observations:



    1. I don't like the hammer analogy, since almost noone swings a hammer sidearm or underhanded. The right arm move here is more a sidearm throw toward the target, with the elbow leading. There is no downward pull there.



    2. I disagree with the notion that there is centrifugal force pulling the arms to a higher plane. There isn't any, because the swing is not occuring on that axis. The body may turn like a merry-go-round, but the swing doesn't occur around the same axis. From the start, it is more like a ferris wheel. Try swinging with just your left arm; you'll find it is much more comfortable and produces more speed swinging down at the ground rather than perpendicular to the torso. The left arm is leading this swing, that's what pulls the path down to the ball.



    3. What many people miss is how Hogan's hips clear the path for the right arm. There is no pull of the hips towards the back foot in the backswing, in fact the right hip moves slightly more towards the target. Then there is an aggressive move towards the target (and back to the left heel) with the left hip to start the downswing. The left shoulder is pulling up with the left hip at this point, but this is pulling the left arm down towards the ball. The left shoulder rotates from just over the right toe to back over the left heel. This natural ferris wheel swing rotation is what pulls the right side down and through.



    4. Moe Norman's drop and tug move is required for him because he doesn't move his hips like Hogan. With Hogan this is driven more from the hips and the left side. Moe's move may be easier to duplicate, but should also produce less power.



    5. A couple of videos from Wayne DeFrancesco. The first is Bobby Jones, but a similar move down towards the ball, with room created by an aggressive shift forward by the hips.



    http://youtu.be/j1_ZljBCcBA?t=11m4

    http://youtu.be/GnCp4f458x8?t=10m




    BrianB,



    Would you agree that the right arm side arm throwing motion is only possible because of the 'layoff' move;

    Ben Hogan taught to Schlee who wrote, it moved his trail elbow down and in front of his trail hip?



    Didn't the aggressive lateral shift of Ben Hogans hips toward the target, put him in position to sweep the ball opposite his right hip?... 'side on'?



    two of Ben Hogans most important 'swing controls', IMO
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 28, 2014 #16
    Now I realize that Ben Hogan was a greedy, control freak in executing his golf swing.



    1. Cupping of his left wrist for the fullest c0cking and club head lag,

    2. Laying off and freewheeling of his left side for fullest rotational motion,

    3. Dropping of his right side to close the upper-right-arm gap,

    4. Rolling the club like a baseball bat to close the club face,

    5. Turbo boost with his right side with his 3 right hands like a tennis forehand swing



    All these results in the most beautiful golf swing in my eyes.
    Posted:
  • no where to lookno where to look Members  493WRX Points: 0Posts: 493
    Joined:  #17
    Now I realize that Ben Hogan was a greedy, control freak in executing his golf swing.





    5L,



    "consciously trying to control the clubface at impact is folly.You cannot time such a delicate and devilish thing.

    It happens too fast, much too fast."
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #18
    No where,



    Please read the thread

    Hogan's Rotate the Baseball Bat Quote
    Posted:
  • no where to lookno where to look Members  493WRX Points: 0Posts: 493
    Joined:  edited Jul 28, 2014 #19
    Silky wrote:


    No where,



    Please read the thread

    Hogan's Rotate the Baseball Bat Quote








    silky,



    please read Ben Hogans words:





    He says he rotated the club face open in BS.... as fast and as far as I could..



    coming down it was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook.......(He does NOT say he rotates the club closed. It happens too fast to control the clubface at impact.....too fast , too delicate.)





    Ben Hogan never closed the club facewith his hands..... He used his body rotation to square the clubface.. ......another important swing control', IMO







    [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped the left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the after I could rotate it, the more distance I got. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped the left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the after I could rotate it, the more distance I got. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."[/background][/background]
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 28, 2014 #20

    Silky wrote:


    No where,



    Please read the thread

    Hogan's Rotate the Baseball Bat Quote








    silky,



    please read Ben Hogans words:





    He says he rotated the club face open in BS.... as fast and as far as I could..



    coming down it was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook.......(He does NOT say he rotates the club closed. It happens too fast to control the clubface at impact.....too fast , too delicate.)





    Ben Hogan never closed the club facewith his hands..... He used his body rotation to square the clubface.. ......another important swing control', IMO







    [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped the left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the after I could rotate it, the more distance I got. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped the left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the after I could rotate it, the more distance I got. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."[/background][/background]




    Yes, no where,



    But I honestly believe that he actively rotated/rolled the club back to closing in his down swing. This is the kind of a 1-direction control that I mentioned. His neutral grip probably provided a sensory limit for the club face closure.



    Actually, I tried that myself and it worked. Not the cupping of the wrist though, only the palma flexion of the left wrist. And not that I could do it well. I probably need 1 million reps to ingrain all the Hogan's actions.
    Posted:
  • BrianBBrianB Members  219WRX Points: 1Posts: 219 Bunkers
    Joined:  #21
    Silky wrote:


    You might argue that this is not a good model, I can accept that. But the model does exist and is used in practice, for example, the bat swings of professional baseball players and, of course, Ben Hogan's golf swing.




    Not saying it's a bad model, but just that like most models, it doesn't necessarily describe Hogan's swing. It sometimes seems as though anyone, with any swing model of any kind, would like to claim Hogan as an example of it. But he rarely fits. Hogan is pretty much his own model.



    In this case, Hogan's left arm doesn't raise above the shoulder, so many people think he should fit the "one plane" model. But he's more upright than most "one plane" swingers and swings the left arm more downward, with the club not rotating around the same axis as the torso. I'm not saying he fits a two-plane model, either. The human body isn't limited to one motion or the other.



    In any case, look at your pictures there, and it's clear that the left arm is moving more like a ferris wheel or windmill, swinging on a different plane from the shoulders, which also are turning on a different plane from the hips.


    Silky wrote:


    Concerning whether Hogan employed the Master Move of horizontal tugging and vertical dropping like Moe, I think the picture may be obvious.







    I think it actually demonstrates well what I've been saying. The black circles in those diagrams represent the position of the hips. The white circles represent the position of the shoulders. That illustration is meant to show exactly how this motion is driven by the turning of the hips, which those diagrams are showing to have turned around like a merry-go-round. The weight goes from the right heel to the left heel as the hips move from the first position to the second shown. The shoulders haven't really even turned independently at all yet in the illustrated position, as they've moved the same 45 degrees as the hips.



    This is in stark contrast to that Moe Norman video above, where Moe says at 1:10:


    I don't believe in hip turn. Shoulder turn, not hip. My hips hardly turn at all.




    You have added the green arrow above showing the shoulder lowering. My point is not that this doesn't occur, it is that it requires no conscious thought for Hogan, because it occurs as a consequence of the hip and shoulder rotation. This is why he isn't emphasizing it himself.



    In Hogan, the downswing plane is not the same as the backswing plane. In Hogan's words, just a few pages before that illustration appears (my emphasis added):


    The golfer gets on this second plane--without thinking he is changing planes--when he turns his hips back to the left at the start of the downswing. This moves his body to the left and automatically lowers the right shoulder.




    So yes, the right shoulder is lowered, and there is a horizontal pull from the left shoulder, but for Hogan these occur automatically as a consequence of the hip rotation and clubhead path. And I think any centrifugal force generated will apply to the plane and axis which the club is being swung around, not to that which the hips are turning around. If you look at Hogan's illustrations of the downswing plane, it is nowhere near to being perpendicular to either the torso or hips.



    Even if there is some similarity to Norman, and if some of this may just be us using different language to try to describe some of the same things, I do think there are some important differences as well, esecially with regard to the role of the hips, if we are talking here about Hogan's swing.
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 29, 2014 #22
    BrianB,



    My bad in claiming the Hogan swing. If I appear to have found the Hogan's secret, shame on me.



    I started with the puzzle of looking for a golf swing which is unhitched freewheeling golf swing. I can mindlessly swing the left arm and club with my left side with kinetic chain from the ground up. That is an unhitched freewheeling motion. But with the the left hand and the club head moving in orbits following the leader - the left shoulder, the club head is too high to meet the ball. It is about an upper right hand length is height above.



    I then try my hacker's right arm hammering action forcing the hands and club down to the ball. It worked and since it is an orthogonal action I still retained the freewheeling action of my left side. My left side still feels the same freewheeling rotation, although now of course the left arm and the club shaft will appear to be steepened and shallow again obscuring the rotor like movement of the left side.





    I came to look closely at the Hogan swing to see whether he was doing the same thing, and, so one thing led to the next.



    I do state that the appearance in a golf swing can be deceiving, for the club is under various forces simultaneously obscuring the underlying actions such as the freewheel rotation of the left side and the downward pulling of the right side.



    Perpendicularity of the rotor to the axis of course can likewise be obscured. But I do confirm that my left side tries it best in creating a rotary motion around the spine axis.



    My usual model is to have the left and right shoulder rotate around the spine at the right angle. I suspect this may not be the way of the Hogan's swing.



    Yes, I watch Moe Norman's video about his de-emphasis of hip rotation. Consider his body bulk at the time, I empathize with him.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
    Joined:  #23
    Silky wrote:


    Now I realize that Ben Hogan was a greedy, control freak in executing his golf swing.



    1. Cupping of his left wrist for the fullest c0cking and club head lag,

    2. Laying off and freewheeling of his left side for fullest rotational motion,

    3. Dropping of his right side to close the upper-right-arm gap,

    4. Rolling the club like a baseball bat to close the club face,

    5. Turbo boost with his right side with his 3 right hands like a tennis forehand swing



    All these results in the most beautiful golf swing in my eyes.




    3/ is an over looked component aka lateral bend to tilt the axis whilst not impeding the shoulder rotation ( vs say a steep shoulder motion) . Correctly applying the lateral bend also has an effect on the face as in keeping it " open" which leads to point 4/ also over looked by the pivot driven swing and reverse crop theorists
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jul 29, 2014 #24
    eightiron wrote:

    Silky wrote:


    Now I realize that Ben Hogan was a greedy, control freak in executing his golf swing.



    1. Cupping of his left wrist for the fullest c0cking and club head lag,

    2. Laying off and freewheeling of his left side for fullest rotational motion,

    3. Dropping of his right side to close the upper-right-arm gap,

    4. Rolling the club like a baseball bat to close the club face,

    5. Turbo boost with his right side with his 3 right hands like a tennis forehand swing



    All these results in the most beautiful golf swing in my eyes.




    3/ is an over looked component aka lateral bend to tilt the axis whilst not impeding the shoulder rotation ( vs say a steep shoulder motion) . Correctly applying the lateral bend also has an effect on the face as in keeping it " open" which leads to point 4/ also over looked by the pivot driven swing and reverse crop theorists




    Thanks, 8iron,



    I will have a close look at the lateral bend action.

    Is this a dynamic action or the same as the reverse-K posture at setup?

    Oh, I googled it, there are a lot of good reads.



    Thanks again.
    Posted:
  • no where to lookno where to look Members  493WRX Points: 0Posts: 493
    Joined:  edited Jul 29, 2014 #25
    Silky wrote:


    Silky wrote:


    No where,



    Please read the thread

    Hogan's Rotate the Baseball Bat Quote








    silky,



    please read Ben Hogans words:





    He says he rotated the club face open in BS.... as fast and as far as I could..



    coming down it was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook.......(He does NOT say he rotates the club closed. It happens too fast to control the clubface at impact.....too fast , too delicate.)





    Ben Hogan never closed the club facewith his hands..... He used his body rotation to square the clubface.. ......another important swing control', IMO







    [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped the left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the after I could rotate it, the more distance I got. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped the left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the after I could rotate it, the more distance I got. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."[/background][/background]




    Yes, no where,



    But I honestly believe that he actively rotated/rolled the club back to closing in his down swing. This is the kind of a 1-direction control that I mentioned. His neutral grip probably provided a sensory limit for the club face closure.



    Actually, I tried that myself and it worked. Not the cupping of the wrist though, only the palma flexion of the left wrist. And not that I could do it well. I probably need 1 million reps to ingrain all the Hogan's actions.




    silky,



    the other quote from the baseball bat thread:



    [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Most people are too upright because they disconnect the arms from the body. My left arm swung right across my chest on the backswing and was the strongest part of my downswing. It's almost impossible to get your body out of position and come back to the ball badly. The idea is to rotate the club with the left arm. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Poor players and even some tour players try to do it with the right arm. You have to do it with the left arm"[/background]













    If your doing it with your right arm,.... well Ben Hogan said it.



    No cup in left wrist, either?



    With the layoff move you were close to Hogan. Now not so much.



    Monte teaches a method that is compatible with the way our hands were genetically designed.

    ...roll or rotate your hands into impact and or straighten your right arm into impact....like a hammer



    .
    Posted:
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #26
    This thread is awesome.
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #27






    silky,



    the other quote from the baseball bat thread:



    [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Most people are too upright because they disconnect the arms from the body. My left arm swung right across my chest on the backswing and was the strongest part of my downswing. It's almost impossible to get your body out of position and come back to the ball badly. The idea is to rotate the club with the left arm. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Poor players and even some tour players try to do it with the right arm. You have to do it with the left arm"[/background]













    If your doing it with your right arm,.... well Ben Hogan said it.



    No cup in left wrist, either?



    With the layoff move you were close to Hogan. Now not so much.



    Monte teaches a method that is compatible with the way our hands were genetically designed.

    ...roll or rotate your hands into impact and or straighten your right arm into impact....like a hammer



    .




    No where,



    Thank you for the quote. I think I understand what Hogan said. Hogan's swing is rotation-based like helicopter rotor and not like a playground swing.



    I do try to rotate/roll the club with the left hand, not the right hand.



    Nah. I am no way near Hogan. Like I said before, I would need a million reps to ingrain only just the Hogan's movements that I have a glimpse of. In real play, I may need to resort to my two-plane swing or one-plane swing with hammering right arm.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #28


    This thread is awesome.




    I started this thread hoping to learn from regular guru's like you.

    I was just introduced to "lateral bend" from 8iron.

    I am having fun reading about it in the internet. I do not believe in the "spine engine" though.
    Posted:
  • no where to lookno where to look Members  493WRX Points: 0Posts: 493
    Joined:  #29
    Silky wrote:



    silky,



    the other quote from the baseball bat thread:



    [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Most people are too upright because they disconnect the arms from the body. My left arm swung right across my chest on the backswing and was the strongest part of my downswing. It's almost impossible to get your body out of position and come back to the ball badly. The idea is to rotate the club with the left arm. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Poor players and even some tour players try to do it with the right arm. You have to do it with the left arm"[/background]













    If your doing it with your right arm,.... well Ben Hogan said it.



    No cup in left wrist, either?



    With the layoff move you were close to Hogan. Now not so much.



    Monte teaches a method that is compatible with the way our hands were genetically designed.

    ...roll or rotate your hands into impact and or straighten your right arm into impact....like a hammer



    .




    No where,



    Thank you for the quote. I think I understand what Hogan said. Hogan's swing is rotation-based like helicopter rotor and not like a playground swing.



    I do try to rotate/roll the club with the left hand, not the right hand.



    Nah. I am no way near Hogan. Like I said before, I would need a million reps to ingrain only just the Hogan's movements that I have a glimpse of. In real play, I may need to resort to my two-plane swing or one-plane swing with hammering right arm.






    Silky,

    Forget helicoptors and playground swings.



    Get the three levers working in the same plane. (club, bent right arm and left arm/scapula)
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky Members  731WRX Points: 80Posts: 731 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #30
    No where,



    Please elaborate more on that.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • no where to lookno where to look Members  493WRX Points: 0Posts: 493
    Joined:  #31
    BrianB, My observations:



    1. I don't like the hammer analogy, since almost noone swings a hammer sidearm or underhanded. The right arm move here is more a sidearm throw toward the target, with the elbow leading. There is no downward pull there.



    2. I disagree with the notion that there is centrifugal force pulling the arms to a higher plane. There isn't any, because the swing is not occuring on that axis. The body may turn like a merry-go-round, but the swing doesn't occur around the same axis. From the start, it is more like a ferris wheel. Try swinging with just your left arm; you'll find it is much more comfortable and produces more speed swinging down at the ground rather than perpendicular to the torso. The left arm is leading this swing, that's what pulls the path down to the ball.



    3. What many people miss is how Hogan's hips clear the path for the right arm. There is no pull of the hips towards the back foot in the backswing, in fact the right hip moves slightly more towards the target. Then there is an agressive move towards the target (and back to the left heel) with the left hip to start the downswing. The left shoulder is pulling up with the left hip at this point, but this is pulling the left arm down towards the ball. The left shoulder rotates from just over the right toe to back over the left heel. This natural ferris wheel swing rotation is what pulls the right side down and through.



    4. Moe Norman's drop and tug move is required for him because he doesn't move his hips like Hogan. With Hogan this is driven more from the hips and the left side. Moe's move may be easier to duplicate, but should also produce less power.



    5. A couple of videos from Wayne DeFrancesco. The first is Bobby Jones, but a similar move down towards the ball, with room created by an agressive shift forward by the hips.



    http://youtu.be/j1_ZljBCcBA?t=11m4

    http://youtu.be/GnCp4f458x8?t=10m











    silky,



    If you lay off as Ben Hogan showed Schlee,

    position yourself ahead of the back of the ball, as BrianB described in his observations



    then let the trail elbow that has dropped down and in front of the trail hip

    be the axis of rotation through impact.



    you will

    Get the three levers working in the same plane. (club, bent right arm and left arm/scapula)

    :
    Posted:
2

Leave a Comment

Rich Text Editor. To edit a paragraph's style, hit tab to get to the paragraph menu. From there you will be able to pick one style. Nothing defaults to paragraph. An inline formatting menu will show up when you select text. Hit tab to get into that menu. Some elements, such as rich link embeds, images, loading indicators, and error messages may get inserted into the editor. You may navigate to these using the arrow keys inside of the editor and delete them with the delete or backspace key.