German Stainless Steel vs. Double Aged Stainless Steel

I've heard they're the same metal, anealed stainless steel, so my question to anyone that has been able to compare a Scotty GSS to a Bettinardi DASS, do they feel the same?

I'd be interested in hearing the responses on this too as I've never personally seen (let along touched) a Cameron GSS putter. I love my Bettinardi BB-8 DASS 3-Slot Tour...but have never been able to compare it against a Cameron GSS.

BTW - I've always been told the feel on a 3 Slot Tour DASS model is "Out of This World" compared to a traditional DASS model...but again, I've never compared them.

There are so many factors involved that its hard to give a broad statement.

GSS/SSS and DASS felt very similar to me and the 3 slot is truly a great feel with distance putter for me. I would not characterize DASS/GSS as "soft" but rather crisp. The 3 slot gives it a much solider feel for me.

My friends gss is outta this world soft unlike any other scotty I have rolled

the funny thing about GSS is that it is a cheaper material to buy in blocks than American SS, but the marketing has the end value waaaaay above American SS. I once read here that being able to tell the difference in vaious SS is like saying one can taste the difference in gasoline octanes... not possible. It's more how the putter maker uses the material (slots, weight, positioning) and finishes it that gives SS the impact sounds/feel. Try solid copper for something really different

IMHO, all these terms like GSS, DASS, SSS are strictly for marketing purposes and don't necessarily represent any specific grades of steel. Scotty Cameron actually has a registered trademark on "German Stainless Steel".

If you do a Google search on "German stainless steel", you'll see that there are all sorts of grades that could be considered "German"--primarily 304 and 420 grades. 304 grade is commonly referenced because it's the most abundant grade of stainless steel (regardless of what country it's manufactured in). 420 grade is also frequently referenced because it's commonly used for cutlery, and many German companies are known for producing the finest cutlery products. What specific grade of "German stainless steel" that Scotty Cameron uses is a mystery (at least it is to me--not that I'm dying to know or anything).

DASS (double-aged stainless steel), I'm assuming, is a reference to the steel being annealed (twice). The typical supply condition for 300 grade stainless steels is annealed. It would probably cost more get 300 grades in a non-annealed condition. Whether or not a seconding annealing step does anything to the metal's characteristics matters not to the end user. It's only pertinent to the person (or CNC machine) doing the milling. Annealing softens the metal and makes it less brittle. I think Bettinardi typically uses 303 grades, and that grade happens to be the most machinable because of its softness--even in its typical supply condition. A 2nd annealing step seems to be overkill, in anything. After all, if your putter was milled and you don't notice any cracks in the metal, then it shouldn't matter to you if it was annealed twice, once, or not at all. You're not going to feel any difference.

As for SSS (surgical stainless steel), there are two possible grades, one Austenitic (316 grade) and one Martensitic (420 grade), that could be considered "surgical" grades. If a magnet sticks to it, it's most likely 420. If not, it's most likely 316. Surgical steels are typically more corrosion resistant and have greater hardness which helps to maintain sharp cutting edges. I suppose the extra corrosion resistance could benefit putters, but the hardness is pretty much irrelevant to the end-user.

Bob Bettinardi has described his DASS as double annealed (which tracks pretty much exactly what Cbae is saying). Bob says it makes the steel a little easier to mill and a little softer off the face. I own two Bettinardi DASS putters and I can't tell any difference off the face between DASS and plain old stainless. They're still great putters that are extremely good looking and durable so I don't care if "DASS" is just marketing speak.

As for German Stainless Steel--I have never heard Scotty give a reasonable explanation for what it is. I've never heard him say it is double annealed. Many people on this site who work in the machining or steel industry say that German Stainless Steel (literally stainless steel made in Germany) is really no different than stainless steel made in any other country. Personally, I think GSS is an idea Scotty uses to justify charging 3X extra for a putter that was ridiculously overpriced to begin with. Performance advantage--I think not.

If anyone has any quotes from Scotty saying exactly what it is about GSS that makes it better--I would love to hear it.

Chin is correct, as per usual. One minor correction, it is "GSS" that Acushnet has trademarked. "German Stainless Steel" is not trademarked, and is exactly what the name implies, stainless steel made in Germany.

As far as I know, there has never been a double blind test to determine if there are any real differences in feel among any grade of stainless steel, but there is, of course, marketing to take advantage of the placebo effect of wanting to believe there is a difference (especially after paying the price premium).

Chin is correct, as per usual. One minor correction, it is "GSS" that Acushnet has trademarked. "German Stainless Steel" is not trademarked, and is exactly what the name implies, stainless steel made in Germany.

Thanks for the clarification. There's a huge difference between trademarking "GSS" vs. trademarking "German stainless steel". The thing is, I have seen the registered trademark symbol next to the fully spelled out phrase in some references too. Perhaps it was an oversight by a third-party reviewer. I sure hope it wasn't from marketing literature written by Cameron/Titleist/Acushnet.

Almost every Cameron I've seen with GSS stamped on one bumper has 303 stamped on the other. Basically, 303 is 303. There may be some tiny variations in alloys to fit within the AISI classification of 303, but not enough to make much of a difference with regards to hardness, density, etc...

So German 303 is the same as Canadian 303, US 303, etc...

A difference in feel could be attributed to a thicker face or slightly different COG. But it's probably just a placebo.

Pure Cameron marketing.

My DASS Bett has a great feel. I wish I could roll a GSS to compare. The DASS's can be had much cheaper than a GSS Cameron, that I do know.

303 GSS and 303 SS are the same hardness on the rockwell scale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale

And their chemical composition is so close that there are no inherent differences in the materials. As mentioned above it has to be this way to fit within the AISI classification of 303. GSS is a registered trademark (trademarks are usually registered to protect marketing positions) and Scotty is one of the best case studies out there for an MBA level marketing class. From a scientific standpoint there is no difference but from a marketing standpoint the difference that has been generated is huge.

The DASS is very similar. I have owned and tried them all (GSS, DASS, and SSS). If you have them finished the same (sandblasting) with the same characteristics (shape, sound slots, milling, same grips, shafts, etc.) there will be no difference in feel.

Finally, if you understand a bit of history you will figure out that Tiger Woods' putter (the one he has used for all these years and wins) is actually not made from German Stainless Steel. He has had backups made from GSS but the putter he uses is 303 SS.

I just picked up a mint DASS for $800. Not a scratch on it. A true 3 slot DASS Tour Proto. Try touching a GSS for less than $3K on a lucky day in any condition - not likely. Scotty's are nice putters but the marketing machine that is Scotty/Titliest has made them insanely expensive and way, way, way over-hyped in my opinion. I've got to tell you though that the DASS Betti is a really sweet putter. Looks like a 009, feels incredible and puts a role on it like I have never experienced. Amazing.

My contact at Acushnet has heard that Scotty has plans for the "Excaliber" project, having secured a supply of Elfin Stainless Steel or ESS as it is known to the Elfin people of Tintagel, Cornwall this steel having the same properties as the mighty Excaliber, sword of the legendary King Arthur, will allow the bearer of the ESS Newport 2 (strongly rumoured to be a certain "Eldrick the Younger") to unite the four majors of the golfing world within the same year.

My contact at Acushnet has heard that Scotty has plans for the "Excaliber" project, having secured a supply of Elfin Stainless Steel or ESS as it is known to the Elfin people of Tintagel, Cornwall this steel having the same properties as the mighty Excaliber, sword of the legendary King Arthur, will allow the bearer of the ESS Newport 2 (strongly rumoured to be a certain "Eldrick the Younger") to unite the four majors of the golfing world within the same year.

Do you know what the retail is going to be on the new ESS Newport 2's??? I'm ready to put in my order with my local Titleist rep as long as it doesn't exceed my budget of $15,000.

Chin is correct, as per usual. One minor correction, it is "GSS" that Acushnet has trademarked. "German Stainless Steel" is not trademarked, and is exactly what the name implies, stainless steel made in Germany.

Thanks for the clarification. There's a huge difference between trademarking "GSS" vs. trademarking "German stainless steel". The thing is, I have seen the registered trademark symbol next to the fully spelled out phrase in some references too. Perhaps it was an oversight by a third-party reviewer. I sure hope it wasn't from marketing literature written by Cameron/Titleist/Acushnet.

Trademarks are not registered anywhere. They're established through use by the company. Basically you can put TM next to anything you want... whether it would hold up in court is another story. Copyrights are typically registered but even they don't have to be, in order to be legally valid.

[quote name='cbae' timestamp='1186727406' post='674721']
IMHO, all these terms like GSS, DASS, SSS are strictly for marketing purposes and don't necessarily represent any specific grades of steel. Scotty Cameron actually has a registered trademark on "German Stainless Steel".

DASS (double-aged stainless steel), I'm assuming, is a reference to [b]the steel being annealed (twice)[/b]. The typical supply condition for 300 grade stainless steels is annealed. It would probably cost more get 300 grades in a non-annealed condition. Whether or not a seconding annealing step does anything to the metal's characteristics matters not to the end user. It's only pertinent to the person (or CNC machine) doing the milling. Annealing softens the metal and makes it less brittle. I think Bettinardi typically uses 303 grades, and that grade happens to be the most machinable because of its softness--even in its typical supply condition. A 2nd annealing step seems to be overkill, in anything. After all, if your putter was milled and you don't notice any cracks in the metal, then it shouldn't matter to you if it was annealed twice, once, or not at all. You're not going to feel any difference.
[/quote]

Sorry to bring back this ancient thread but there are a few good points here. Not my intention of starting any war, just a technical discussion, pricing aside.

DASS should be Double [b]Annealed[/b] SS, not Double Aged. Annealing is used to soften steel and relieve stresses whereas aging is the same as precipitation hardening. Nobody wants a putter made of very hard steel or stainless steel. Usually it's the 17-4PH SS that can be aged, 300 series (austenitic) can't be aged.

Annealing [color=#252525]is frequently used to soften a metal for cold working, to improve machinability, or to enhance properties. There is also an annealing process (bright annealing) that can be applied to machined steel, so perhaps Bettinardi gets annealed billets and use this process again after milling the putters, hence the double annealing.[/color]

[color=#252525]My Lajosi putter is 303 [b]VASS[/b] where VASS is Vacuum Annealed SS where annealing is done in a vacuum chamber to have a high quality surface. The Lajosi is definitely softer than other 303SS putters I have, so I guess it is in the same league than DASS.[/color]

Now about GSS. I know it is a trademark from Acushnet and that Byron said it is Stainless Steel that comes from Germany but I can't find any [u]official[/u] explanation of what kind of stainless steel it is or even a confirmation about what the "G" means. Most findings are like urban myths.

By the way, Annealing is [color=black]Glühen in German, which also starts with a G, so would we be talking of the same DASS or VASS?[/color]

...i know this website thinks feel is subjective. And i know i have to love GSS cuz its commonly associated with Scotty.

But if you want softest then get a carbon steel fit face bettinardi. Dass is a little more pingy but still soft as heck. Next comes deep milled cameron selects. Then GSS. There isnt a lot of distance between each level.

Stainless steel is stainless steel. It doesnt know whether it was produced in Germany, China or the US.

Oh it does to the boys at Tinkley Park, Made in the USA and they won't be overseas parts/materails either, just try tell Bob it don't matter where it comes from ......

All I can say is what a brilliant Job scotty has done.

First the circle t merchandise.
The different types of Steele.
The handmade goods
The headcover game

The man is an incredible marketing genius!
Who else can release a relatively ,low cost putter, put gss, a few stamps, etc. and have people fighting to spend 9000 on it.


Btw, I actually have several sc items, and certainly not a hater.

I rather enjoy studying and learning from him, in terms of business sense.

I agree with Badgergolfer2 on SS is SS. GSS,DASS…a bunch of hyped up marketing….it's stainless steel.

However, I do care if it's made in USA over overseas.

[quote name='502 to Right' timestamp='1186759037' post='675076']
Bob Bettinardi has described his DASS as double annealed (which tracks pretty much exactly what Cbae is saying). Bob says it makes the steel a little easier to mill and a little softer off the face. I own two Bettinardi DASS putters and I can't tell any difference off the face between DASS and plain old stainless. They're still great putters that are extremely good looking and durable so I don't care if "DASS" is just marketing speak.

As for German Stainless Steel--I have never heard Scotty give a reasonable explanation for what it is. I've never heard him say it is double annealed. Many people on this site who work in the machining or steel industry say that German Stainless Steel (literally stainless steel made in Germany) is really no different than stainless steel made in any other country. Personally, I think GSS is an idea Scotty uses to justify charging 3X extra for a putter that was ridiculously overpriced to begin with. Performance advantage--I think not.

If anyone has any quotes from Scotty saying exactly what it is about GSS that makes it better--I would love to hear it.
[/quote]

+1

[quote name='bogeyjosh ' timestamp='1422067390' post='10807205']
I agree with Badgergolfer2 on SS is SS. GSS,DASS…a bunch of hyped up marketing….it's stainless steel.

However, I do care if it's made in USA over overseas.
[/quote]


I definitely do not know a lot about metal but this was my simple thinking. For it to be SS it has to fit into a certain guideline to be considered SS. I personally don't think the even the greatest of putters would be able to tell the difference between 2 exact models made from SSS or GSS.

Like I said I no metallurgist.

[quote name='tangojay' timestamp='1422079379' post='10808061']
Mystic Juice induced Steel.
[/quote]

This might be the material of that $15K that was on the bay the other day.

Thanks for the link. Good reading.

Lot's of good info here already so I'm probably just grabbing a stick to beat the dead horse with everyone else ... 303 is 303 so the hardness between GSS and SS isn't distinguishable. Some people will claim GSS is way softer but that is placebo from wanting to believe that it is. Overall head shape, face thickness, weight, grip, and anything to alter sound (milling, slots, etc) will do more for feel than using GSS over SS.

With that said, one of the most important things of putting is confidence and perception because that changes your outlook and approach to the game. If holding a GSS putter gives you the mental edge to be more confident (feeling you have superior equipment), then it becomes priceless since you'll score better and enjoy the game more.

As a side note, I wonder how many Cameron OTR putters are GSS but not labeled that way. I have to imagine at some point they were just sourcing the cheapest foundry to minimize hard costs since 303 is made to a standard. There might be a ton of people who have GSS OTR putters without even knowing it - there could be entire production lines of Studio Selects made from GSS without anyone knowing.

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1421999413' post='10802259']
...i know this website thinks feel is subjective. And i know i have to love GSS cuz its commonly associated with Scotty.

But if you want softest then get a carbon steel fit face bettinardi. Dass is a little more pingy but still soft as heck. Next comes deep milled cameron selects. Then GSS. There isnt a lot of distance between each level.
[/quote]

GSS is a trademark owned by Titleist , there is not GSS special grade in AISI or ASTM reference anywhere.

I know this is an old post, but GSS is simply DIN spec rather than ANSI spec stainless steel, if you're actually interested in learning metallurgy/process differences read the Stahlschlussel 2010 (as I have). In summary, in a putter you won't notice the difference. Knives or tools that are used and resharpened is where the softer GSS will make a marginal difference.

Someone needs to market triple annealed German stainless steel and put an end to all this marketing chatter...