Anybody here just swing the arms......

and get the legs out of the way?

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Everybody just swing their arms. Only a few people, however, get the rest of their body parts in the right place at the right moment.

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413882745' post='10324369']
and get the legs out of the way?

[sup][media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfCt0Hkwues[/media][/sup]



[sup][media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuj0cxYnn-E[/media][/sup]
[/quote]

On the most recent episode of the champions tour show on g channel, one of the longer hitters said to swing hard and clear your hips. don't recall his name.

Other than a few teachers doing it for demonstration purposes, I've never seen anyone swing with just their arms. It is very difficult to swing a golf club with the hands and arms without eliciting a response from the body. The quality of that response is related to the degree you hold your body in a relaxed and responsive state, and the quality of the swinging motion you are creating with your hands and arms.

I was taught to swing the club back with my hands until it is over the right shoulder. When I arrive there my shoulders have turned about 90 degrees, my back faces the target, and my hips have turned less than my shoulders. All of this is a reaction to my hands swinging the club back. I would not say that I have swung the club just with my arms but I have done nothing deliberately to move anything except the club.

Sorry if this is off the point of the question but I am annoyed by the suggestion that anyone thinks the club should be swung with just the arms.

Steve

Lower body lie?

[center]The arms cannot be swung in a conventional sense without them turning the shoulders. [/center]

my new vertical swing has a very much arm swing focus to it. I know it isn't just my arms but it works for me

Flick was a big proponent of this method IIRC

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413898803' post='10325033']
Lower body lie?
[/quote]

Not everybody is the same, but you see this action a lot with good junior golfers trying to generate power, and some long drive guys (as pointed out by Tanner).

The legs are almost jumping through the ball, and are straight at impact. The legs react to the arms...... "Get the hell out of the way!"

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1413898541' post='10325013']
Other than a few teachers doing it for demonstration purposes, I've never seen anyone swing with just their arms. It is very difficult to swing a golf club with the hands and arms without eliciting a response from the body. The quality of that response is related to the degree you hold your body in a relaxed and responsive state, and the quality of the swinging motion you are creating with your hands and arms.

I was taught to swing the club back with my hands until it is over the right shoulder. When I arrive there my shoulders have turned about 90 degrees, my back faces the target, and my hips have turned less than my shoulders. All of this is a reaction to my hands swinging the club back. I would not say that I have swung the club just with my arms but I have done nothing deliberately to move anything except the club.

Sorry if this is off the point of the question but I am annoyed by the suggestion that anyone thinks the club should be swung with just the arms.

Steve
[/quote]

Yes agree its an oversimplification, and a touch Manuel De La Torre..... but I have no doubt that these talented young junior golfers probably didn't think in terms much more complicated than that. They swung the arms on a full arc that felt like the club face remained square. They also tried to whip the club through the ball as quickly as they could. The legs reacted in the most natural, powerful and complimentary way possible.

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1413903872' post='10325563']
my new vertical swing has a very much arm swing focus to it. I know it isn't just my arms but it works for me

Flick was a big proponent of this method IIRC
[/quote]

Sorry missed your post. Will do some reading on Flick. Whatever consistently gets the clubface on the ball and gets is going to target is good imo. Thompson and McIroy are fantastic and bomb it so it works for them. And guess what, it works for me too..... stick to what you enjoy and works.

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413904218' post='10325635']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413898803' post='10325033']
Lower body lie?
[/quote]

Not everybody is the same, but you see this action a lot with good junior golfers trying to generate power, and some long drive guys (as pointed out by Tanner).

The legs are almost jumping through the ball, and are straight at impact. The legs react to the arms...... "Get the hell out of the way!"
[/quote]

Is it a good thought and drill for some, yes. However research shows that the downswing starts from the ground up in good golf swings. Again it might feel like your legs are reacting to your arms, but they simply are not.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413909244' post='10326227']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413904218' post='10325635']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413898803' post='10325033']
Lower body lie?
[/quote]

Not everybody is the same, but you see this action a lot with good junior golfers trying to generate power, and some long drive guys (as pointed out by Tanner).

The legs are almost jumping through the ball, and are straight at impact. The legs react to the arms...... "Get the hell out of the way!"
[/quote]

Is it a good thought and drill for some, yes. However research shows that the downswing starts from the ground up in good golf swings. Again it might feel like your legs are reacting to your arms, but they simply are not.
[/quote]

When I throw a ball is my arm reacting to my legs?

This is as much a discussion of both feel and real and how symbiotic these are. How does Lexi Thompson get her leg action? What intentions cause the physical responses you can witness in her swing?

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413909940' post='10326301']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413909244' post='10326227']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413904218' post='10325635']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413898803' post='10325033']
Lower body lie?
[/quote]

Not everybody is the same, but you see this action a lot with good junior golfers trying to generate power, and some long drive guys (as pointed out by Tanner).

The legs are almost jumping through the ball, and are straight at impact. The legs react to the arms...... "Get the hell out of the way!"
[/quote]

Is it a good thought and drill for some, yes. However research shows that the downswing starts from the ground up in good golf swings. Again it might feel like your legs are reacting to your arms, but they simply are not.
[/quote]

When I throw a ball is my arm reacting to my legs?

This is as much a discussion of both feel and real and how symbiotic these are. How does Lexi Thompson get her leg action? What intentions cause the physical responses you can witness in her swing?
[/quote]

If your skilled at throwing a ball you know it starts from the ground up. Footwork is essential to throwing with accuracy and velocity. Also, again, regardless of your intent, the lower body initiates the downswing. It's been proven. Thoughts and feels are a different story.

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413882745' post='10324369']
and get the legs out of the way?
[/quote]

It's amazing that they both drive hips open then stall and clubhead flies through impact. Then the turn finishes.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413933159' post='10328937']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413909940' post='10326301']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413909244' post='10326227']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1413904218' post='10325635']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413898803' post='10325033']
Lower body lie?
[/quote]

Not everybody is the same, but you see this action a lot with good junior golfers trying to generate power, and some long drive guys (as pointed out by Tanner).

The legs are almost jumping through the ball, and are straight at impact. The legs react to the arms...... "Get the hell out of the way!"
[/quote]

Is it a good thought and drill for some, yes. However research shows that the downswing starts from the ground up in good golf swings. Again it might feel like your legs are reacting to your arms, but they simply are not.
[/quote]

When I throw a ball is my arm reacting to my legs?

This is as much a discussion of both feel and real and how symbiotic these are. How does Lexi Thompson get her leg action? What intentions cause the physical responses you can witness in her swing?
[/quote]

If your skilled at throwing a ball you know it starts from the ground up. Footwork is essential to throwing with accuracy and velocity. Also, again, regardless of your intent, the lower body initiates the downswing. It's been proven. Thoughts and feels are a different story.
[/quote]

I know it starts from the ground up, but when I was 'taught' how to throw a ball as a child I wasn't given a long lecture on kinematic sequencing, I just tossed a ball repeatedly to different targets. Similarly McIroy wasn't given Homer Kelly at age 6.

You move the arm/s and the body supports the motion. These are natural athletic motions ingrained into most of us when growing up and (if skimming a stone for example) I never once thought about what the lower body was doing.

Try and play qb or pitch without thinking about what your lower body is doing. You won't hack it. You might be able to throw a pitch over the plate without a batter, or toss a football to someone without any defenders, but again, that's not doing it at a high level.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413944661' post='10330165']
Try and play qb or pitch without thinking about what your lower body is doing. You won't hack it. You might be able to throw a pitch over the plate without a batter, or toss a football to someone without any defenders, but again, that's not doing it at a high level.
[/quote]

At an advanced or elite level where technique gets put under the microscope by coaches and tweaking the machine is needed. But that is typically not the learning process when ingraining athletic motions to begin with, particularly in young people. Picturing outcomes and ingraining feels are what drives this.

I personally was involved in a lot of sports growing up, though I didn't play football or baseball I spent plenty of time playing cricket. Whether drilling the ball fast and low to hit the stumps, or launching it 60 meters high in the air. The body was the engine but the kinematic sequence doesn't determine my thoughts and feelings that trigger the motion. Less power and distance, equaled more arm focus and different releases. More power/distance, meant turning my back to target to different degrees before flinging the arm. Remember these are very natural athletic motions that can be performed even when on the run and with only one foot on the ground.

I already said intention, thought, feel, are all different from what really happens.

I already said intention, thought, feel, are all different from what really happens.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413950700' post='10330693']
I already said intention, thought, feel, are all different from what really happens.
[/quote][quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413950700' post='10330693']
I already said intention, thought, feel, are all different from what really happens.
[/quote]

We are in agreement then.

I will be slightly contradictory for a second...... you do have to feel what the legs are doing, this is full body movement after all. I'm relating all this back to the Lexi Thompson's of this world, IMO its clear example of taking a childhood swing and carrying it through to adulthood with you. The club head is being moved squarely (again feel) on a vertical arc, and turning the back to target like I recounted in my cricket analogy, and the legs are doing an elvis underneath them and being told by the arms "don't slow me down, get the hell out of the way and speed me up!"..... thats why you see the legs going crazy and exploding upwards.

Didn't hardy say, for a two plane swing, you swing the arms and almost delay hips until they react but on one plane you can just fire everything together from top

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1413957293' post='10330985']
Didn't hardy say, for a two plane swing, you swing the arms and almost delay hips until they react but on one plane you can just fire everything together from top
[/quote]

In a two plane swing the arms travel more up and need more time to get back down. So yes the body has to wait for the arms to get back down in position before the body can start rotating.

Many many years ago, here in the UK, there was a character in a kids comic where the workings in the body were carried out by minature people.

When the guy was about to eat a curry the eyes - a little guy with binoculars would alert the brain. He would send a message to the stomach and you would see little guy dressed as firefighters ready with their hoses waiting to douse the curry as it came down.

My little guys in golf work best one way. When I think ground up there are no little guys sending a message to the upper body. They are asleep and only react when the hips get moving.

When I start with the upper body the message 'we're going to start down soon' is sent to the lower body before the backswing ends.

The little guys in the lower body shout 'brace yourself and get ready to go' and work in with the upper body.

Back to the real thing the weirdness of it is - I feel much more stable and use the lower body more when I feel the upper body starts.

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413978112' post='10331363']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1413957293' post='10330985']
Didn't hardy say, for a two plane swing, you swing the arms and almost delay hips until they react but on one plane you can just fire everything together from top
[/quote]

In a two plane swing the arms travel more up and need more time to get back down. So yes the body has to wait for the arms to get back down in position before the body can start rotating.
[/quote]

I believe the shoulders must wait for the arms to move down. Your hips begin to rotate and continue to rotate from the very beginning of the down swing. Bubba and Furyk if examples are needed.

Forever young :-)

[sup][media=]http://youtu.be/eykMCjLK6GQ[/media][/sup]

[quote name='JasonFL' timestamp='1413987028' post='10332035']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413978112' post='10331363']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1413957293' post='10330985']
Didn't hardy say, for a two plane swing, you swing the arms and almost delay hips until they react but on one plane you can just fire everything together from top
[/quote]

In a two plane swing the arms travel more up and need more time to get back down. So yes the body has to wait for the arms to get back down in position before the body can start rotating.
[/quote]

I believe the shoulders must wait for the arms to move down. Your hips begin to rotate and continue to rotate from the very beginning of the down swing. Bubba and Furyk if examples are needed.
[/quote]

If the ability to separate the hips is greater than you are correct. Most can't especially from a two plane-ish backswing. Think David Toms.

Another lovely arm swinger.

[sup][media=]http://youtu.be/apQjgBorS5w[/media][/sup]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1413898541' post='10325013']
Other than a few teachers doing it for demonstration purposes, I've never seen anyone swing with just their arms. It is very difficult to swing a golf club with the hands and arms without eliciting a response from the body. The quality of that response is related to the degree you hold your body in a relaxed and responsive state, and the quality of the swinging motion you are creating with your hands and arms.

I was taught to swing the club back with my hands until it is over the right shoulder. When I arrive there my shoulders have turned about 90 degrees, my back faces the target, and my hips have turned less than my shoulders. All of this is a reaction to my hands swinging the club back. I would not say that I have swung the club just with my arms but I have done nothing deliberately to move anything except the club.

Sorry if this is off the point of the question but I am annoyed by the suggestion that anyone thinks the club should be swung with just the arms.

Steve
[/quote]

Think in terms of action and reaction and you have a whole different approach to golf. What is action in your example and what is reaction?

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413933159' post='10328937']

Also, again, regardless of your intent, the lower body initiates the downswing. It's been proven.
[/quote]
The question would be how do you teach lower body and footwork in the golf swing. Do you tell the people, not to move them consciously or do you tell them to actively use them?

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414142265' post='10343067']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1413898541' post='10325013']
Other than a few teachers doing it for demonstration purposes, I've never seen anyone swing with just their arms. It is very difficult to swing a golf club with the hands and arms without eliciting a response from the body. The quality of that response is related to the degree you hold your body in a relaxed and responsive state, and the quality of the swinging motion you are creating with your hands and arms.

I was taught to swing the club back with my hands until it is over the right shoulder. When I arrive there my shoulders have turned about 90 degrees, my back faces the target, and my hips have turned less than my shoulders. All of this is a reaction to my hands swinging the club back. I would not say that I have swung the club just with my arms but I have done nothing deliberately to move anything except the club.

Sorry if this is off the point of the question but I am annoyed by the suggestion that anyone thinks the club should be swung with just the arms.

Steve
[/quote]

Think in terms of action and reaction and you have a whole different approach to golf. What is action in your example and what is reaction?
[/quote]

I think we are all saying similar things. My original post was contentious but I believe it to be true. Swing the arms and allow the legs to get the hell out of the way, which is very different to saying they are inactive, quite the opposite actually. Juststeve gives a nice description of the process such as holding the body in a relaxed and responsive state.