Par 3's that make you say GRRR. (Not GIR)

I don't get as heated about this as my playing partner, who I get Curious if he will even attempt the hole or not, But I'm wondering if there's a common ground with other players out there that have courses near by with one or more par 3's that don't really make sense for the course in which they are on.

The nearest course to me is a rather manageable track that plays 6360 yards from the blues. There are a lot of bends and dog legs, and a fairly open layout, so a well struck drive cutting a corner and so on can put you within very close proximity to par 4's, and par 5's are very reachable in two for a couple of them (I went driver-5 iron into one of them yesterday). Its a well kept course, and good place to play after a blow up round somewhere else, since opportunities are ever present. I just wouldn't feel honest if I played it all the time as I generally shoot 4-5 strokes below my handicap here, as most people with mid caps do.

However, I get slightly confused at courses like this that throw in some kind of crazy difficult par 3 that you generally don't even see on tour, let alone at a local course played almost entirely by the weekend crowd. The 4th hole measures 255 yards from the blues, and 235 from the whites (course plays 6061 from the whites all together.) I've hit this green from the blues once. (A lucky straight 3 wood for me), and a few times from the whites. I'm all for challenges, and I wouldn't have much fun if every one of them required an 8 iron or less like some courses, but i just feel like this is over kill since even from tees behind the whites, you'll find an occasional par 4 that's less than 60 yards longer, It just makes these par 3's seem out of place. I was walking along with a senior player who said on the hole before that he would love to be able to hit the ball 225 yards even, and the golds on this hole play in the realm of 200, which got me thinking, that for a young guy, you bite the bullet, and scramble for a par of bogey, or get lucky and hit the green. But to have yardages that are so unlikely seems a bit cruel.

TPC twin cities is near by, which we get to play on a corporate account fairly often, and the par 3's are 158/189/209/168. These yardages make sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't look at par 3's as give away holes from a course architect, but having a par 3 in which the average golfer would have to pull a driver to hit, makes me curious as to why this would be set up this way. Believe it or not I'm really not even complaining, because if I'm out there having to face one of these 250+ yard monster par threes, it means I'm doing what I love to do, playing golf.

Whats your guys' input? Do a lot of your home town courses have these kinds of holes? Or another kind of par 3 that you just cant wrap your head around?

We have one on our course that is a bit on the longer side, made harder by long narrow green which has trees framing it. From the tips 7200 it plays at 240 with the next closest being 200. This hole is made harder that depending on the wind you are going to have either some hurt or a lot of hurt and will have to either hit a hard cut to hold it in the wind or a low cut that you hope doesn't rise too much with a slight cut on it. There is very little landing area in front of the green that isn't rough so it's nearly 210 of forced carry to even be putting. There are grass bunkers on the front right and left of the green and everything slopes away from the green past there. People are happy with 4 on that hole, for sure.

Depending on conditions I am either hitting a low 2 iron or a hard 5 wood just hoping to get close to the green so I can get up and down. I have missed shooting under par because of this hole countless times.

Well we have two difficult par 3s and two rather simple ones. The most difficult hole is not the longest, but the tightest of them all. Measuring around 195-210 yards depending on the pin position you hit into a very narrow green with trees on both sides, two bunkers to the left and water to the right. It is one of the most difficult holes of the entire course.

EDIT: Some pictures I discovered on the homepage:

I don't see the point in having Par 3s that measure over 200yds from tees that measure less than 6500yds, unless those are the "tips" at that particular course. Most courses I play have 4 or 5 sets of tees... tips that are near or over 7000yds, blues that are in the 6500yd range, whites that are in the 6100yd range, and then some combination of tees labeled "family or seniors or ladies" tees. As a 14 capper that hits driver in the 250yd range (sometimes more sometimes less) I will either play the blues or the whites depending on weather conditions, course layout, or who I'm playing with. I never want to see a par 3 that is over 200yds, particularly if it plays in to the wind.

If I'm playing a course that I'm unfamiliar with, I almost always look to the length of the par 3s in deciding what tees I'm going to play. I want no more than a 5 iron in hand on my par 3s. I should have a good chance at hitting the center of the green with a mid-iron on par 3s, a good chance at hitting all of the par 4s in regulation after an average drive, and a good chance at hitting all par 5s in three. If I don't, time to move up a box.

[quote name='vbb' timestamp='1414421991' post='10357047']
I don't see the point in having Par 3s that measure over 200yds from tees that measure less than 6500yds, unless those are the "tips" at that particular course. Most courses I play have 4 or 5 sets of tees... tips that are near or over 7000yds, blues that are in the 6500yd range, whites that are in the 6100yd range, and then some combination of tees labeled "family or seniors or ladies" tees. As a 14 capper that hits driver in the 250yd range (sometimes more sometimes less) I will either play the blues or the whites depending on weather conditions, course layout, or who I'm playing with. I never want to see a par 3 that is over 200yds, particularly if it plays in to the wind.

If I'm playing a course that I'm unfamiliar with, I almost always look to the length of the par 3s in deciding what tees I'm going to play. I want no more than a 5 iron in hand on my par 3s. I should have a good chance at hitting the center of the green with a mid-iron on par 3s, a good chance at hitting all of the par 4s in regulation after an average drive, and a good chance at hitting all par 5s in three. If I don't, time to move up a box.
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I agree with you. I never jump to a particular set of tees either. Playing back too far can obviously hurt, but I also learned through this season that playing too short can be a disadvantage as well. Ex- if its a short par 4, I'd rather hit from 100 yards out than some odd number. I prefer full swings as lack of experience doesn't allow me to take off set amount of yardages. But back to the par 3's, the blues are the tips at this particular course, but as I noted, the whites play 235, and the golds (senior) play 200 give or take with pin placement. I understand 200 or 210 for one par 3 on a course, seeing as though its possible to hit with an iron, but having a distance that you would see poor averages from professionals on, makes me wonder what the point is.

[quote name='MidwestGolfBum' timestamp='1414419687' post='10356885']
We have one on our course that is a bit on the longer side, made harder by long narrow green which has trees framing it. From the tips 7200 it plays at 240 with the next closest being 200. This hole is made harder that depending on the wind you are going to have either some hurt or a lot of hurt and will have to either hit a hard cut to hold it in the wind or a low cut that you hope doesn't rise too much with a slight cut on it. There is very little landing area in front of the green that isn't rough so it's nearly 210 of forced carry to even be putting. There are grass bunkers on the front right and left of the green and everything slopes away from the green past there. People are happy with 4 on that hole, for sure.

Depending on conditions I am either hitting a low 2 iron or a hard 5 wood just hoping to get close to the green so I can get up and down. I have missed shooting under par because of this hole countless times.
[/quote]

While I've never obviously shot under par, I have had this hole ruin my confidence and hopes of a better than my average round. I only play at this particular course once or twice a month, and have had rounds with great start. I've come into it even, and -1 a couple different times only to have that hole ruin a good start. The green is narrow and deep, but ob is right on the back side with trees on the left and ob close on the right. The front is wide open so I'm beginning to feel like playing it as a par 4 and conceding a bogey is the smartest play, with par possible depending of the 2nd shot.

[quote name='Golfingfanatic' timestamp='1414419872' post='10356895']
Well we have two difficult par 3s and two rather simple ones. The most difficult hole is not the longest, but the tightest of them all. Measuring around 195-210 yards depending on the pin position you hit into a very narrow green with trees on both sides, two bunkers to the left and water to the right. It is one of the most difficult holes of the entire course.

EDIT: Some pictures I discovered on the homepage:
[/quote]

That one looks like an absolute bear, especially if the pin were placed in the back!

There's a par three here in dallas at indian creek that measures a little over 260 from the tips. OB runs down the right hand side and just over the green. There's a giant tree on the right side and bunkers pretty much everywhere else. The hole is guarded by a giant slope on the left (so if you go over you have to hit a blind fop shot to the pin). And the pin is usually tucked way back in the right. So basically you have to play a 275 yard fade (which is a driver for most players) - hope that it doesn't release too much and go OB (which is only 30 feet from the flag over a cart path)

It's basically a hole that's meant to be played from 130-180 that they've moved back nearly 100 yards. It'd play over par on the PGA tour, literally. It's a bit much in my opinion.

Pontiac Country Club. 6360 from the blues, and #16 is 232.

Even from the whites which is 6100, it's 220.

Slightly uphill too!

OP: which course are you referring to? I'm in the area and can think of one hole like this (Oneka Ridge in White Bear/Hugo.)

I haven't played that course in ages, but as I recall, at least the hole is not difficult, and the green is slanted back to front. It just feels like not much design effort went into it.

One I have a really tough time with is #10 at Manitou Ridge. It's about 200 from the blues and that is one tough green to hit.

If you pull it left, down a rather large bank. If you go right, into a stand of pine trees. Anything long and left is basically dead.

I wish this photo made it look more lethal. They actually re-built that green and moved it further back years ago. Its like an upside down cereal bowl and hitting anything but the middle of it, your ball won't hold. The play is short and running it up, which still isn't easy.

[quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1414425225' post='10357321']
[quote name='Golfingfanatic' timestamp='1414419872' post='10356895']
Well we have two difficult par 3s and two rather simple ones. The most difficult hole is not the longest, but the tightest of them all. Measuring around 195-210 yards depending on the pin position you hit into a very narrow green with trees on both sides, two bunkers to the left and water to the right. It is one of the most difficult holes of the entire course.

EDIT: Some pictures I discovered on the homepage:
[/quote]

That one looks like an absolute bear, especially if the pin were placed in the back!
[/quote]
Yep it is. 2nd day of the club Championships the pin is usully in the back just behind the right bunker. Because of the downslope to the right, shots which miss the bunker usually end up in the water, so a very demanding hole

There's a long par 3 on my course, 11th hole, usually plays around 210 from the mens (230 tips) and is slanted back to front and right to left. I've hit the green twice this year on my 1st shot. Every time the putt was going to be downhill. It really is better to aim at the front of the green (190ish) and get up and down for par.

--kC

[quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1414418569' post='10356809']
...
The nearest course to me is a rather manageable track that plays 6360 yards from the blues.

... The 4th hole measures 255 yards from the blues, and 235 from the whites (course plays 6061 from the whites all together.) ... and the golds on this hole play in the realm of 200...

[/quote]

Absolutely does not make sense. I would hazard a guess that the length of this hole is not as intended by the original architect, more likely the work of some misguided course owner or manager or green committee in an attempt to bump up the overall yardage of the course.

Good 'ole Fort Walton Beach Municipal Oaks course has an simple looking enough par 3 that is just awful. It plays 200yds, into the prevailing wind with a small front bunker, a large drop off into a hazard if you pull the ball left, hard pan on the right, a cart path just over the green that runs down previously mentioned drop off (ball will not stop on this), and the green is 30' x 27' or so. Small.

And to top it all off, back before the days of GPS and lasers, we walked it off one day, tired of the 1 or 2 good shots we would hit coming up short. Yep, it was miss-measured by 20 yards. The scorecard/hole markers said 180 but it was 200 all day. I haven't played the hole for a few years, but the emotional scars remain.

second hole at kelowna club. I couldn't hit that green if it were 80 yards closer...the other par 3's on the course haven't given me any issues.

Played in a tourney - included a par 3 playing about 250. With water all around and no margin of error I simply laid up to the women's tees about 130 away and then hit another PW onto the green. Got it nice and close and ended up making one of the only pars of the day. Got poked fun of by my playing partner but I said it then I still say it - the scorecard tells a number. Not how you earned it. Those who went for the green from the tee were hitting a really low percentage shot. I hit two PWs; one full and one 3/4. I will take my layup par versus their "go for it" double every time.

But back to the OP's main point - why would a course that plays about 6300 need a par 3 that is over 240?

There's a few courses in the Chicago area that have 230-240 yard par 3's that face south which is generally the prevailing wind in Chicago during the summer months. On my list of course design pet peeves this is up there on the list, if you want an obnoxiously long par 3 at least face it so it's downwind most of the time.

OP: which course are you referring to? I'm in the area and can think of one hole like this (Oneka Ridge in White Bear/Hugo.)

I haven't played that course in ages, but as I recall, at least the hole is not difficult, and the green is slanted back to front. It just feels like not much design effort went into it.

 

One I have a really tough time with is #10 at Manitou Ridge. It's about 200 from the blues and that is one tough green to hit.

 

If you pull it left, down a rather large bank. If you go right, into a stand of pine trees. Anything long and left is basically dead.

I wish this photo made it look more lethal. They actually re-built that green and moved it further back years ago. Its like an upside down cereal bowl and hitting anything but the middle of it, your ball won't hold. The play is short and running it up, which still isn't easy.

It is oneka ridge! I live less than 5 miles north. I've never played manitou before, not sure why since its right down 61.. and you are correct, it doesnt play extremely difficult, nothing to force carry, the distance just doesnt make sense, especially for a weekend warrior type course. That hole you posted looks pretty tough, not very deep or wide, especially for a 200 yard shot.

Where are you located in the area?

[quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1414424387' post='10357221']
[quote name='MidwestGolfBum' timestamp='1414419687' post='10356885']
We have one on our course that is a bit on the longer side, made harder by long narrow green which has trees framing it. From the tips 7200 it plays at 240 with the next closest being 200. This hole is made harder that depending on the wind you are going to have either some hurt or a lot of hurt and will have to either hit a hard cut to hold it in the wind or a low cut that you hope doesn't rise too much with a slight cut on it. There is very little landing area in front of the green that isn't rough so it's nearly 210 of forced carry to even be putting. There are grass bunkers on the front right and left of the green and everything slopes away from the green past there. People are happy with 4 on that hole, for sure.

Depending on conditions I am either hitting a low 2 iron or a hard 5 wood just hoping to get close to the green so I can get up and down. I have missed shooting under par because of this hole countless times.
[/quote]

While I've never obviously shot under par, I have had this hole ruin my confidence and hopes of a better than my average round. I only play at this particular course once or twice a month, and have had rounds with great start. I've come into it even, and -1 a couple different times only to have that hole ruin a good start. The green is narrow and deep, but ob is right on the back side with trees on the left and ob close on the right. The front is wide open so I'm beginning to feel like playing it as a par 4 and conceding a bogey is the smartest play, with par possible depending of the 2nd shot.
[/quote]

I do my best to realize that when I'm playing all the way back I am going to get a 3 at best (most of the time) and a 4 at the worst. I move on from there and just finish 3, 3 (birdie, eagle) to have an okay day. I hate knowing that I don't really have a realistic chance to make a lot of birdies on that hole, which sucks seeing as there isn't another hole on the course (save for our #1 handicap, uphill par 5 that plays more like 600 to a blind landing area on the green) that I don't have at least a chance of birdie.

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1414429719' post='10357779']
Played in a tourney - included a par 3 playing about 250. With water all around and no margin of error I simply laid up to the women's tees about 130 away and then hit another PW onto the green. Got it nice and close and ended up making one of the only pars of the day. Got poked fun of by my playing partner but I said it then I still say it - the scorecard tells a number. Not how you earned it. Those who went for the green from the tee were hitting a really low percentage shot. I hit two PWs; one full and one 3/4. I will take my layup par versus their "go for it" double every time.

But back to the OP's main point - why would a course that plays about 6300 need a par 3 that is over 240?
[/quote]

You made the smart play! Thats what I'm considering doing on this one from now on. anywhere in the front of the green is safe, so instead of hitting 3 wood and hoping for a low percentage shot, im just going to lay up. I just think its crazy that a course like this would have a hole that would be nearly impossible for the average golfer, and even middle of the road avid golfers like myself to hit the green in one shot. Its like the equivalent of having a 550 yard par 4. I guess that would require 2 great shots, but im sure you see the point! haha

[quote name='MidwestGolfBum' timestamp='1414431964' post='10357961']
[quote name='Tcann32' timestamp='1414424387' post='10357221']
[quote name='MidwestGolfBum' timestamp='1414419687' post='10356885']
We have one on our course that is a bit on the longer side, made harder by long narrow green which has trees framing it. From the tips 7200 it plays at 240 with the next closest being 200. This hole is made harder that depending on the wind you are going to have either some hurt or a lot of hurt and will have to either hit a hard cut to hold it in the wind or a low cut that you hope doesn't rise too much with a slight cut on it. There is very little landing area in front of the green that isn't rough so it's nearly 210 of forced carry to even be putting. There are grass bunkers on the front right and left of the green and everything slopes away from the green past there. People are happy with 4 on that hole, for sure.

Depending on conditions I am either hitting a low 2 iron or a hard 5 wood just hoping to get close to the green so I can get up and down. I have missed shooting under par because of this hole countless times.
[/quote]

While I've never obviously shot under par, I have had this hole ruin my confidence and hopes of a better than my average round. I only play at this particular course once or twice a month, and have had rounds with great start. I've come into it even, and -1 a couple different times only to have that hole ruin a good start. The green is narrow and deep, but ob is right on the back side with trees on the left and ob close on the right. The front is wide open so I'm beginning to feel like playing it as a par 4 and conceding a bogey is the smartest play, with par possible depending of the 2nd shot.
[/quote]

I do my best to realize that when I'm playing all the way back I am going to get a 3 at best (most of the time) and a 4 at the worst. I move on from there and just finish 3, 3 (birdie, eagle) to have an okay day. I hate knowing that I don't really have a realistic chance to make a lot of birdies on that hole, which sucks seeing as there isn't another hole on the course (save for our #1 handicap, uphill par 5 that plays more like 600 to a blind landing area on the green) that I don't have at least a chance of birdie.
[/quote]

I agree. I dont think its wrong to have a whole that requires some really good shots. But the opportunity should be there IMO. Of course anyone can argue that the opportunity is there, but to have something be so unlikely kinda takes the fun out of it considering you could still hit a strong 240 yard perfect 3 wood, and still be short. On a par 3.

[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1414430389' post='10357827']
There's a few courses in the Chicago area that have 230-240 yard par 3's that face south which is generally the prevailing wind in Chicago during the summer months. On my list of course design pet peeves this is up there on the list, if you want an obnoxiously long par 3 at least face it so it's downwind most of the time.
[/quote]

Yeah, that just doesnt make sense. It's okay to test the golfers skills, and have holes that most are un-likely to par. But 230-240-250 are yardages that if you hit the green, you a have a chance for a great reward, par 5's, or a hell of a comeback from a bad tee shot on a par 4 haha. But to have it be the standard distance to make a par is odd to me.

[quote name='texchad12' timestamp='1414425600' post='10357381']There's a par three here in dallas at indian creek that measures a little over 260 from the tips. OB runs down the right hand side and just over the green. There's a giant tree on the right side and bunkers pretty much everywhere else. The hole is guarded by a giant slope on the left (so if you go over you have to hit a blind fop shot to the pin). And the pin is usually tucked way back in the right. So basically you have to play a 275 yard fade (which is a driver for most players) - hope that it doesn't release too much and go OB (which is only 30 feet from the flag over a cart path)

It's basically a hole that's meant to be played from 130-180 that they've moved back nearly 100 yards. It'd play over par on the PGA tour, literally. It's a bit much in my opinion.[/quote]

This hole has always seemed out of place to me. You're right on the money, Green was designed to take a short iron shot but with a long iron yardage. Good luck getting up and down if you pull it left and the pin is tucked in the front.

I think a lot of courses got behind the length bandwagon and found that their par 3s were the ideal spot to add yardage to the course for the money. I don't think any par 3 should be designed with a fairway wood or driver in mind. Those are not shots that most golfers are able to place with a decent level of accuracy. I don't mind if one or two par 3s on a course call for a long iron as long as there is some balance with one or two short ones. I really despise playing a round where all of them are over 180 yards.

I don't mind long par 3's but you are right they absolutely have to fit the course. I don't believe any par 3 should have a tee shot that is longer than any other approach shot to hit the GIR on the rest of the course. I realize that everyone plays different tees and hits the ball different distances, however there is generally a "landing area" that most expected tee shots should land on 4's and a layup spot on 5's.

There's a course north of Montreal called "la Bele" which is a pretty easy mountain track. It's probably like 6200yds or something, not long and fairly wide open....it has a par 3 on it that's 250yds!

Granted it's off the side of a mountain....but still....250!

my home course has a par 3 that plays 220-230 from the tips to a green that is really, really funky. There's some hole locations that are near impossible 2 putts and that's even you even hit the green ...but it fits in at my course because my course is really tough

200 yds is a mind$@#% for me. I always try to step on it and hit nowhere or dead left. I loathe par 3s.

Honestly the one that has always given me troubles isn't even a too long hole. Its just a tad under 190 from the tips, but green is tilted forwarded down left at about 30 degrees so there is not one good goo pin to putt to on the entire green, also bunkered along the side it slopes away from. Take a par and move on kind of hole, now on days with wind in your face, that makes it even more fun playing around 200. Id rather take our local one around 235 all day over that horrible green, its almost unplayable.

Cedarhurst Golf Club in Beaverton, Ontario, the 3rd hole is a 238y par 3. Any slice right will be OB. Always hit my 4W here back when I was a member 15years ago. I was only long twice on this hole. Most of the time I was short, other times pin high.

http://www.foxcreekgolfclub.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/hole_layout/Hole_4.jpg

This diagram really doesn't demonstrate the difficulty of the hole, it plays about 210 from the whites to the middle of the green, the bunkers left of the green are about 6' below the level of the green, there are mounds right and long with the green running back right away from you.

In about 100 rounds, I have hit this green less than 10 times. For me it's a hard 3 hybrid or smooth 3wood. It plays about 10 yards longer than the yardage.