Mortgage Finance Guys Please Help

I have condo with a conventional mortgage. I am underwater by a long way so I probably won’t be able to sell it for many years.

I have insurance (PMI) that costs $158 per month.

If I pay down my mortgage to 78% of Loan to Value (LTV) I can terminate my PMI coverage.

Paying an extra extra $300 per month of principle I could get to 78% LTV by 3/2020 instead of 6/2029 that would “save” me PMI payments for 111 months X $158 =$17538

Would it be worth it to pay extra on my mortgage to get to 78% LTV quicker or would it be better to invest the extra money each month, in say, my 401K?

Thanks

On some mortgages, as long as it wasn't an FHA, you can petition to have PMI cancelled once you pay over 20% over the value of the home.

If you have good credit, you can also look to refinance - which isn't a pay option now to lock in on historically low interest rates if it makes sense after closing costs. If the loan value on the new refinance can be given for less than 80% value of the house - then the new mortgage will rid of PMI.

The last question can depend on so many different variables. Age, matching capibilities of your 401k, market performance, etc.

Dont lenders have to automatically cancel PMI now once LTV is 80%?

Regarding payoff vs investing.....as mentioned, tons of variables to look at and entertain before making that kind of determination. My personal thought is to save for retirement - you only get so many years to do it. Forgoing that will bite you in the rear later in life. It took me and my dad almost a decade to get my younger sis to put into her 401k. Now in her 40s, she completely regrets not contributing to it as she lost out on a ton of cash when she retires.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

I am not a financial planner - but I do enjoy monitoring our investments and I do like dabbling in equities.

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1418234659' post='10573011']
On some mortgages, as long as it wasn't an FHA, you can petition to have PMI cancelled once you pay over 20% over the value of the home.

If you have good credit, you can also look to refinance - which isn't a pay option now to lock in on historically low interest rates if it makes sense after closing costs. If the loan value on the new refinance can be given for less than 80% value of the house - then the new mortgage will rid of PMI.

The last question can depend on so many different variables. Age, matching capibilities of your 401k, market performance, etc.
[/quote]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I have checked and it is possible to petition to have PMI terminated once I get to 80% LTV but I have a long way to go to get to 80% LTV. I have excellent credit so when I do get to that point I would expect my petition to be approved.

I just want to know how I could best use my money, to get rid of PMI as fast as possible or invest the money.

I already contribute 13% of my paycheck to my 401K and the company does match but only up to 5%. I am 50 but I have a lot of catching up to do because I started saving late in life.

[quote name='tekin112000' timestamp='1418238387' post='10573339']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1418234659' post='10573011']
On some mortgages, as long as it wasn't an FHA, you can petition to have PMI cancelled once you pay over 20% over the value of the home.

If you have good credit, you can also look to refinance - which isn't a pay option now to lock in on historically low interest rates if it makes sense after closing costs. If the loan value on the new refinance can be given for less than 80% value of the house - then the new mortgage will rid of PMI.

The last question can depend on so many different variables. Age, matching capibilities of your 401k, market performance, etc.
[/quote]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I have checked and it is possible to petition to have PMI terminated once I get to 80% LTV but I have a long way to go to get to 80% LTV. I have excellent credit so when I do get to that point I would expect my petition to be approved.

I just want to know how I could best use my money, to get rid of PMI as fast as possible or invest the money.

I already contribute 13% of my paycheck to my 401K and the company does match but only up to 5%. I am 50 but I have a lot of catching up to do because I started saving late in life.
[/quote]

You are age-eligible to contribute more into 401k per IRS guidelines. Im sure you are aware of that.

[quote name='tekin112000' timestamp='1418238387' post='10573339']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1418234659' post='10573011']
On some mortgages, as long as it wasn't an FHA, you can petition to have PMI cancelled once you pay over 20% over the value of the home.

If you have good credit, you can also look to refinance - which isn't a pay option now to lock in on historically low interest rates if it makes sense after closing costs. If the loan value on the new refinance can be given for less than 80% value of the house - then the new mortgage will rid of PMI.

The last question can depend on so many different variables. Age, matching capibilities of your 401k, market performance, etc.
[/quote]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I have checked and it is possible to petition to have PMI terminated once I get to 80% LTV but I have a long way to go to get to 80% LTV. I have excellent credit so when I do get to that point I would expect my petition to be approved.

I just want to know how I could best use my money, to get rid of PMI as fast as possible or invest the money.

I already contribute 13% of my paycheck to my 401K and the company does match but only up to 5%. I am 50 but I have a lot of catching up to do because I started saving late in life.
[/quote]

Oh if you're over 50...401(k) that baby, especially if you started late. No brainer. Only three ways to make up for lost time in retirement savings:

1) Save more 2) Get more aggressive (likely both 1 & 2) or 3) die before you run out of money in your retirement years. Most people don't want to choose #3.

[quote name='Lord Helmet' timestamp='1418238890' post='10573387']
[quote name='tekin112000' timestamp='1418238387' post='10573339']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1418234659' post='10573011']
On some mortgages, as long as it wasn't an FHA, you can petition to have PMI cancelled once you pay over 20% over the value of the home.

If you have good credit, you can also look to refinance - which isn't a pay option now to lock in on historically low interest rates if it makes sense after closing costs. If the loan value on the new refinance can be given for less than 80% value of the house - then the new mortgage will rid of PMI.

The last question can depend on so many different variables. Age, matching capibilities of your 401k, market performance, etc.
[/quote]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I have checked and it is possible to petition to have PMI terminated once I get to 80% LTV but I have a long way to go to get to 80% LTV. I have excellent credit so when I do get to that point I would expect my petition to be approved.

I just want to know how I could best use my money, to get rid of PMI as fast as possible or invest the money.

I already contribute 13% of my paycheck to my 401K and the company does match but only up to 5%. I am 50 but I have a lot of catching up to do because I started saving late in life.
[/quote]

You are age-eligible to contribute more into 401k per IRS guidelines. Im sure you are aware of that.
[/quote]

Yep, I realize I can contribute more than 13%

My advice is to save save save into the 401k. Best of luck.

If you are so far underwater that it will take until 2029 to get PMI gone with normal payments, your best bet is to take the keys to the place and give them to the bank. And that is serious advice. You made a bad investment, and you should cut ties with it. The bank would do it to you if it were the other way around. There is nothing immoral about a strategic default or a short sale.

Is this something HARP could help with? I hate government programs in general, but if it exists, maybe it's worthwhile to take a look at?

[quote name='hh2nd' timestamp='1418442165' post='10586599']
If you are so far underwater that it will take until 2029 to get PMI gone with normal payments, your best bet is to take the keys to the place and give them to the bank. And that is serious advice. You made a bad investment, and you should cut ties with it. The bank would do it to you if it were the other way around. There is nothing immoral about a strategic default or a short sale.
[/quote]+1. You're throwing good money after bad at this point. You're actually ruining your financial future by continuing to make payments.

Best advice is to find an interested buyer and seek a short sale. But your op doesn't really have enough details to get into specifics. What's the loan balance at this point? What's the home worth? Where is it located? What type of loan do you have? What other assets or savings do you have? What's your job situation, and are you saving for retirement with a 401k match? We need a lot more details

[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1418488570' post='10588055']
Is this something HARP could help with? I hate government programs in general, but if it exists, maybe it's worthwhile to take a look at?
[/quote]

Yes I was able to refinance using HARP loan. Reduced my interest rate a little to 4.5 but I am still under water

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1418492786' post='10588267']
[quote name='hh2nd' timestamp='1418442165' post='10586599']
If you are so far underwater that it will take until 2029 to get PMI gone with normal payments, your best bet is to take the keys to the place and give them to the bank. And that is serious advice. You made a bad investment, and you should cut ties with it. The bank would do it to you if it were the other way around. There is nothing immoral about a strategic default or a short sale.
[/quote]+1. You're throwing good money after bad at this point. You're actually ruining your financial future by continuing to make payments.

Best advice is to find an interested buyer and seek a short sale. But your op doesn't really have enough details to get into specifics. What's the loan balance at this point? What's the home worth? Where is it located? What type of loan do you have? What other assets or savings do you have? What's your job situation, and are you saving for retirement with a 401k match? We need a lot more details
[/quote]

Sure

Details

Loan balance $287,259
Loan is a conventional 30 fixed interest 4.5%
Condo was appraised at $220,000 in 2012, when I refinanced with HARP loan, not much improvement in the market in this area so I would guess it would still appraise to $220,000 today.
Located northern virginia 22041,near the pentagon.
I have an IRA, 401K I have been putting 13 of my paycheck it to the 401K, company matches up to 6%
Auto loan interest rate 2% 10,000 balance
No other assets, no other debt
I do IT work for the Air Force, stable employment

Because I work on a Air Force contract I have to have a DOD clearance that requires a clear background, no criminal activity, no financial problems. So If I have bankruptcy or foreclosure I could lose my job. So I can't just throw the keys at the bank and walk, although I would love to.

Thank you to all that have responded

This mess has caused me so much heartache

I am a very conservative person especially when using money.

When I applied for a home loan in 2006 I was approved for $400K but that seemed like way to much, so I looked at $300K condos. My loan agent was suggesting I buy immediately but I felt like the market was a big overheated bubble. I waited until summer of 2007 to buy. I was right in waiting the market did cool down quite a bit, but it still had more to drop to it's lowest in 2009. Remember in 05-06 in my area people were making $100k in a year flipping ANYTHING. I was not trying to be greedy I just wanted to make a smart buy.

How long do you plan to stay in your condo? I have to believe that the area near the Pentagon will not take another big hit in value and has most likely gone up in value since 2012. My brother lived in NW DC for a long time and values there were immune to gravity!!!

If you plan to stay long term, I would recommend putting any extra money into your 401k and continue to make your regular condo payments. Good chance that in a few years if the bottom does not fall out of the economy your condo will go up in value, your loan balance will have gone down, and you can then petition to have the PMI removed.

drn92

[quote name='drn92' timestamp='1418511676' post='10589293']
How long do you plan to stay in your condo? I have to believe that the area near the Pentagon will not take another big hit in value and has most likely gone up in value since 2012. My brother lived in NW DC for a long time and values there were immune to gravity!!!

If you plan to stay long term, I would recommend putting any extra money into your 401k and continue to make your regular condo payments. Good chance that in a few years if the bottom does not fall out of the economy your condo will go up in value, your loan balance will have gone down, and you can then petition to have the PMI removed.

drn92
[/quote]

Yes some areas around me have been rising and are at or above 2006 levels, but not my area.

You can go to zillow.com or similar real estate sites and plug in my ZIP code 22041, you will little or no growth.

Right now I am at 124% of loan to value I would have to have home values go WAY up to get to 80% loan value.

I really don't want to stay here anyway. My girl friend has moved in since I bought and it's really too small for two. Condo fees have gone up a lot since I bought and I think they will continue to rise.

Is going to a shorter term an option? Costs more per month, but more money gets paid on principal than to interest. That will get you out of PMI quicker too.

Will a short sale actually hurt your clearance? I would do more research there..... its not ideal, but with a good credit report and no other debt you'd probably walk right through any review

[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1418513931' post='10589495']
Is going to a shorter term an option? Costs more per month, but more money gets paid on principal than to interest. That will get you out of PMI quicker too.
[/quote]

I don't think that is possible. Lenders will not loan more than 90-95% loan to value. I am at 124%. The only reason I could refinance in 2012 was because of the HARP program

[quote name='tekin112000' timestamp='1418512716' post='10589375']
[quote name='drn92' timestamp='1418511676' post='10589293']
How long do you plan to stay in your condo? I have to believe that the area near the Pentagon will not take another big hit in value and has most likely gone up in value since 2012. My brother lived in NW DC for a long time and values there were immune to gravity!!!

If you plan to stay long term, I would recommend putting any extra money into your 401k and continue to make your regular condo payments. Good chance that in a few years if the bottom does not fall out of the economy your condo will go up in value, your loan balance will have gone down, and you can then petition to have the PMI removed.

drn92
[/quote]

Yes some areas around me have been rising and are at or above 2006 levels, but not my area.

You can go to zillow.com or similar real estate sites and plug in my ZIP code 22041, you will little or no growth.

Right now I am at 124% of loan to value I would have to have home values go WAY up to get to 80% loan value.

I really don't want to stay here anyway. My girl friend has moved in since I bought and it's really too small for two. Condo fees have gone up a lot since I bought and I think they will continue to rise.
[/quote]

How are the rents and rental market in your area? If rent would cover what you pay now or even more, you could rent out your condo and move to a bigger place.

drn92

[quote name='drn92' timestamp='1418572296' post='10591745'][quote name='tekin112000' timestamp='1418512716' post='10589375']
[quote name='drn92' timestamp='1418511676' post='10589293']
How long do you plan to stay in your condo? I have to believe that the area near the Pentagon will not take another big hit in value and has most likely gone up in value since 2012. My brother lived in NW DC for a long time and values there were immune to gravity!!!

If you plan to stay long term, I would recommend putting any extra money into your 401k and continue to make your regular condo payments. Good chance that in a few years if the bottom does not fall out of the economy your condo will go up in value, your loan balance will have gone down, and you can then petition to have the PMI removed.

drn92
[/quote]

Yes some areas around me have been rising and are at or above 2006 levels, but not my area.

You can go to zillow.com or similar real estate sites and plug in my ZIP code 22041, you will little or no growth.

Right now I am at 124% of loan to value I would have to have home values go WAY up to get to 80% loan value.

I really don't want to stay here anyway. My girl friend has moved in since I bought and it's really too small for two. Condo fees have gone up a lot since I bought and I think they will continue to rise.
[/quote]

How are the rents and rental market in your area? If rent would cover what you pay now or even more, you could rent out your condo and move to a bigger place.

drn92[/quote]

This is a great solution if the numbers work

[quote name='drn92' timestamp='1418572296' post='10591745']
[quote name='tekin112000' timestamp='1418512716' post='10589375']
[quote name='drn92' timestamp='1418511676' post='10589293']
How long do you plan to stay in your condo? I have to believe that the area near the Pentagon will not take another big hit in value and has most likely gone up in value since 2012. My brother lived in NW DC for a long time and values there were immune to gravity!!!

If you plan to stay long term, I would recommend putting any extra money into your 401k and continue to make your regular condo payments. Good chance that in a few years if the bottom does not fall out of the economy your condo will go up in value, your loan balance will have gone down, and you can then petition to have the PMI removed.

drn92
[/quote]

Yes some areas around me have been rising and are at or above 2006 levels, but not my area.

You can go to zillow.com or similar real estate sites and plug in my ZIP code 22041, you will little or no growth.

Right now I am at 124% of loan to value I would have to have home values go WAY up to get to 80% loan value.

I really don't want to stay here anyway. My girl friend has moved in since I bought and it's really too small for two. Condo fees have gone up a lot since I bought and I think they will continue to rise.
[/quote]

How are the rents and rental market in your area? If rent would cover what you pay now or even more, you could rent out your condo and move to a bigger place.

drn92
[/quote]

Thanks for the input but unfortunately the numbers don't work. The rent for a condo like mine won't cover my monthly expense.

[quote name='tekin112000' timestamp='1418508805' post='10589081']
Sure

Details

Loan balance $287,259
Loan is a conventional 30 fixed interest 4.5%
Condo was appraised at $220,000 in 2012, when I refinanced with HARP loan, not much improvement in the market in this area so I would guess it would still appraise to $220,000 today.
Located northern virginia 22041,near the pentagon.
I have an IRA, 401K I have been putting 13 of my paycheck it to the 401K, company matches up to 6%
Auto loan interest rate 2% 10,000 balance
No other assets, no other debt
I do IT work for the Air Force, stable employment

Because I work on a Air Force contract I have to have a DOD clearance that requires a clear background, no criminal activity, no financial problems. So If I have bankruptcy or foreclosure I could lose my job. So I can't just throw the keys at the bank and walk, although I would love to.

Thank you to all that have responded

This mess has caused me so much heartache

I am a very conservative person especially when using money.

When I applied for a home loan in 2006 I was approved for $400K but that seemed like way to much, so I looked at $300K condos. My loan agent was suggesting I buy immediately but I felt like the market was a big overheated bubble. I waited until summer of 2007 to buy. I was right in waiting the market did cool down quite a bit, but it still had more to drop to it's lowest in 2009. Remember in 05-06 in my area people were making $100k in a year flipping ANYTHING. I was not trying to be greedy I just wanted to make a smart buy.
[/quote]
Thanks for providing the additional details.

Let me start out by saying i'm not a professional in this industry. I'm just a guy who got kicked off of this site at one point or another and spent my time on a finance forum instead of here. back in the day, i sat on this site, cruising the putter forum until 3 am. now, i visit the finance forum every day and this site maybe a couple times a month. it's drastically changed my life knowing what i now know about finance. with that said, this is all my opinion and conjecture, and you have to figure out what works for you.

good that you're maxing out your employer match on 401k. that is by far the most important thing. if anyone reading doesn't understand why, the answer is that it's basically a way to get tax-free savings AND a raise in one shot. it's very important to get the maximum of your employer match, always.

Anyway, back to the mortgage.

i ran the loan numbers through a mortgage calculator ([url="http://www.mortgagecalculator.org/"]http://www.mortgagecalculator.org/[/url]) and got that a balance of $287,000 at 30 year fixed from today at 4.5% is $1450 per month before tax, insurance, and--in your case--PMI. You told us elsewhere that PMI is almost $160/month. real estate taxes in NoVa look to be about 1% ([url="http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dta/tax_rates.htm"]http://www.fairfaxco...a/tax_rates.htm[/url]), although this might be variant. At 220k, you're looking at $2,200 per year, or $180-ish per month. That puts us at $1790 per month BEFORE INSURANCE.

You've already told me in this thread that your girlfriend is moving in (or did) and the place is too small for both of you, so i can't imagine it's even a 2-BR condo, but just for argument a quick apartment search in the area finds similar apartments can be had around $1500/month ([url="http://www.apartmentguide.com/apartments/Virginia/Falls-Church/"]http://www.apartment...a/Falls-Church/[/url]).

People in our country get WAY too caught up in real estate. At the end of the day, real estate is a gigantic headache and a huge cost in our lives. whether it's renting or owning, what you need to be considering is not anything related to equity--because the payback on that is so far out it's basically nonexistent (and there are other reasons that home equity is a bad idea as compared to other things you can do with your money)--what you need to be considering is what the monthly cost of any housing situation is to you. in this case, you're looking at saving around $300/month as compared to simply renting an apartment somewhere else. This is $300 in post-tax dollars, mind you (even though, i know, you can deduct mortgage interest. it ends up not being that much more than the standard deduction, to the point that i'm not willing to consider it here). Depending on your tax bracket, $300 post-tax dollars can look like anything from $360-$500 per month--but let's not consider that just now.

You've given me as a fact that you wont break even on your condo valuation to get to 80% LTV until 2029 by making these payments on this schedule. Let's not complicate it by considering what happens if you pay early...

so, by doing this, 2029-2014=15 years of payments. that's $300/month * 12 months/yr * 15 years = $54,000 in post-tax dollars.

That's in insane amount of money to throw at a situation.

but wait, there's more.

if we assume that you would use those extra $300/month in the market, the calculus would be rather different. if we consider that inflation would be roughly 3% and market rates over the next 15 years would average about 10%, the future value of the income stream is almost $96,000. That's over $61,000 in present day money--in post-tax dollars. if you pay 20% effective tax rates, the value of this is about the same as being paid $76,250 at ordinary income rates (and that's just federal taxes--it would be even higher if considering state taxation).

So, how much is your job worth to you?

Let's assume that you're right and a foreclosure *could* cause you to lose your job (if your employer found out). What's your salary? If you make $80,000, are you unwilling to give up a job? You're basically working this year for free because you value your job security.

On the contrary, I highly doubt that a short sale would damage your credit or job prospects so egregiously as to affect your job. Short sales do damage credit a bit, but they don't have the same impact as a foreclosure.

Honestly, i don't think you're thinking clearly if you say you want to keep making payments so you're no longer underwater in 15 years. that's crazy talk. There is nothing in this world that is worth a year of my compensation except (1) my family's health and safety and (2) hookers and blow (just kidding...but seriously). we go to work to provide for the things we want and need in life. if you're tellign me that in the details of your situation you will have to work an extra year and could get out of that by taking a little bit of a hit on your credit score, i would take the hit and move on. No, you won't be able to buy another house immediately after, but that's really overrated anyway. home ownership comes with a ton of cost and responsibility that the money doesn't even compensate for. and, when you think about tying up a bunch of money in a down payment on a home, the inability for that money to work for you as an investment is really scary.

i hope you find that helpful. Like i said, this is my opinion. and i made a bunch of assumptions. but if it were between my job and $80,000, i would say "F you" to my job and go work somewhere else. Surely, you're not so well-compensated working for the air force that you can't stand to lose the job. there are tons out there for an IT professional.

but that's just me.

as an aside, the 401k is not an asset that can be reached, even if you were to be in bankruptcy, so you're good there. the fact that you don't have any other assets is a good thing in terms of getting a short sale approved.

Hey Hebron, what finance site are you hanging out on?

Good advice by Hebron....I would recalculate with a different rate of return on my investments (10% seems aggressive), but otherwise I tend to agree. Don't throw good money after bad.

Hebron,

Thanks for all that you bring to the table

Your numbers are close I pay $1856 each month for mort. taxes and PMI but there is also condo fees of $426 per month. The fees have gone up since I moved in so I would expect them to go up in the future. They cover garbage collection, water, snow removal, maintenance, insurance for the property.

So the grand total for my monthly nut is about $2300.

You're correct the condo is 1 bed plus a den or office. Not even a two bedroom. So it's kinda tight for two adults.

So, yes, the more you know about my situation the worse it sounds.

I checked with a coworker, a short sale does not mean automatic revocation of my clearance. I would probably have to go through re-investigation but to me that's lots of annoying paperwork, a pain, but doable, and I would probably be able to keep my job with my clearance it good shape. DOD had to adjust their stance over the last ten years because so many have been in this situation, there wouldn't be enough people to fill positions.

I am going to contact a tax attorney to see what it would take to go through a short sale. Probably a pain and my credit rating would be crushed, but better than going broke over twenty years in a condo I don't really like.

You are right about home ownership, it's benefits are really overblown. It's not really as good as it was 40 years ago. It's a way more volatile investment than many would have you believe. It probably shouldn't even be called an investment.

This goes without saying, but definitely do everything you can to get your situation on paper with a personnel/HR person and try to get something in writing from them stating that a short sale will not cost you your job.

On the is it an investment or not front - without laying out a bunch of math - if you buy a house at 35 years old, pay it off in 15 years (15 year mortgage obviously), and use that principal and nothing else for every other home you ever live in, yes, it is a great investment. Otherwise, it is debatable.

You shouldn't need a tax attorney, at least not yet. But you probably should talk to a realtor about how to get the process going. Usually, you have to be behind on your mortgage for the bank to even consider a short sale. Then you'll need an interested buyer who can wait out the bank, which might take a while to close. You might want to talk to an accountant about whether the forgiven balance will be taxable income. I believe there is still an exemption for short sales of primary residences but you'll need to check that before going through with it. Also, make sure you don't have free funds floating around in your bank accounts or on recent statements, as that can be seen by the bank as a source of funds you can access to pay your mortgage with.
Thanks for being open with the info needed and letting us help. Report back as it progresses.Eta....do you research, and spend the time figuring out what to expect and what to do

You won't lose clearance over a short sale. We're buying a short sale from a dod employee right now.

That said, because you've been making payments, its going to be very difficult to prove your hardship to the bank. They're likely to force a promissory note on you for the remainder of your loan. This is making our short sale take forever to go through. You might lose some buyers if it takes more than a couple of months. It sucks to be punished for paying, but delinquent houses are easier to buy.

[quote name='gwchem' timestamp='1418730567' post='10599901']
You won't lose clearance over a short sale. We're buying a short sale from a dod employee right now.

That said, because you've been making payments, its going to be very difficult to prove your hardship to the bank. They're likely to force a promissory note on you for the remainder of your loan. This is making our short sale take forever to go through. You might lose some buyers if it takes more than a couple of months. It sucks to be punished for paying, but delinquent houses are easier to buy.
[/quote]

This seems correct. I probably won't lose my clearance is I try to do a short sale.

Unfortunately I will have a difficult time convincing the bank to accept the short sale. They seem to do it if there is a death in the family or medical emergency but probably not for someome like me, drowning in debt but still alive.

It also seems like in some circumstance even after the short sale goes through the lender does not give up it's right to sue for the loss they take on the short sale.