Why swinging over the top is good and how is shallows the swing.

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  • trapsmv15trapsmv15 Plattsburgh, NY 1756WRX Points: 121Handicap: 10-12Members Posts: 1,756 Platinum Tees
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    lv_2_hack wrote:


    lv_2_hack wrote:


    Typically a really good fade pattern.




    I was hitting some pretty powerful push draws with ease, almost automatic . I think it all stems from your original tip to me of the karate chop move.




    Awesome mate. The karate chop move (iteach taught it to me) is great for people who are overly connected. Helps get lead arm off the chest coming down. For you, your backswing might have gotten a bit too deep, so the shift out helped get you back on plane.



    Overall you are right, most of the WRX crowd hates seeing any downswing that's steeper than the backswing.


    I do a karate chop move with my right forearm (feel, of course). Is this a feel of the whole left arm chopping down?
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  • trapsmv15trapsmv15 Plattsburgh, NY 1756WRX Points: 121Handicap: 10-12Members Posts: 1,756 Platinum Tees
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    parallax wrote:


    Can someone define "over the top"?



    I thought it was the club head path in relation to the ball.


    In this sense, it is that the plane of the downswing is above the plane of the backswing. So, the backswing plane is a little inside of the 'on plane/ideal' and then the downswing comes down 'on plane', slightly over the top of the backswing.
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  • FatReedFatReed FatReed  601WRX Points: 1Unregistered Posts: 601 Bunkers
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    iteachgolf wrote:


    Every swing I make is "OTT". As are most of my students




    . . . but you do not cast; you do not get too steep; you do not early extend to shallow things out; and you do not swing out-to-in. Nor, I am certain, do any of your better students.



    OTT pathology stems from the forearms and wrists. . . not the shoulders.
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  17088WRX Points: 1,228Members Posts: 17,088 Titanium Tees
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    FatReed wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    Every swing I make is "OTT". As are most of my students




    . . . but you do not cast; you do not get too steep; you do not early extend to shallow things out; and you do not swing out-to-in. Nor, I am certain, do any of your better students.



    OTT pathology stems from the forearms and wrists. . . not the shoulders.




    My arms work OTT of my backswing plane. As do most of my students. Those other things are completely separate.



    Btw my "plane" is definitely left of my stance line as are all my divots
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  • FatReedFatReed FatReed  601WRX Points: 1Unregistered Posts: 601 Bunkers
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    iteachgolf wrote:

    FatReed wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    Every swing I make is "OTT". As are most of my students




    . . . but you do not cast; you do not get too steep; you do not early extend to shallow things out; and you do not swing out-to-in. Nor, I am certain, do any of your better students.



    OTT pathology stems from the forearms and wrists. . . not the shoulders.




    My arms work OTT of my backswing plane. As do most of my students. Those other things are completely separate.



    Btw my "plane" is definitely left of my stance line as are all my divots




    I know Dan . . . I am just ribbing you a bit :-)



    I know you have a stable of better players but, for what I suspect is the majority, I doubt that you tell them, "hey, we need to get you coming over the top."
    Posted:
  • FatReedFatReed FatReed  601WRX Points: 1Unregistered Posts: 601 Bunkers
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    Dan,



    Actually, I find the “swinging left” part in you prior post to be interesting, as it pertains to your OTT comments. Probably would have been good for the swinging left thread. I certainly notice JC really gets left in the videos you referenced; honestly was not looking at his shoulder action.



    It’s akin to when someone says they are flipping versus the professional flip we dissected, for example, with Phil in the swinging left thread. OTT certainly carries a negative connotation for the majority of golfers, however, as you suggest, there is what I will call the professional OTT move.



    I am under the impression that if someone has a professional OTT move, it requires aggressively swinging left to be effective???
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  17088WRX Points: 1,228Members Posts: 17,088 Titanium Tees
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    FatReed wrote:


    Dan,



    Actually, I find the “swinging left” part in you prior post to be interesting, as it pertains to your OTT comments. Probably would have been good for the swinging left thread. I certainly notice JC really gets left in the videos you referenced; honestly was not looking at his shoulder action.



    It’s akin to when someone says they are flipping versus the professional flip we dissected, for example, with Phil in the swinging left thread. OTT certainly carries a negative connotation for the majority of golfers, however, as you suggest, there is what I will call the professional OTT move.



    I am under the impression that if someone has a professional OTT move, it requires aggressively swinging left to be effective???




    The opposite. The transition and shift out shifts path left from there no intent to swing left. My arms are in front of me. I just happen to be facing left. I hit more draws than fades with all clubs but driver.



    GMac has "OTT" move but definitely doesn't swing left and extends down target line
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  • FatReedFatReed FatReed  601WRX Points: 1Unregistered Posts: 601 Bunkers
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    iteachgolf wrote:

    FatReed wrote:


    Dan,



    Actually, I find the "swinging left" part in you prior post to be interesting, as it pertains to your OTT comments. Probably would have been good for the swinging left thread. I certainly notice JC really gets left in the videos you referenced; honestly was not looking at his shoulder action.



    It's akin to when someone says they are flipping versus the professional flip we dissected, for example, with Phil in the swinging left thread. OTT certainly carries a negative connotation for the majority of golfers, however, as you suggest, there is what I will call the professional OTT move.



    I am under the impression that if someone has a professional OTT move, it requires aggressively swinging left to be effective???




    The opposite. The transition and shift out shifts path left from there no intent to swing left. My arms are in front of me. I just happen to be facing left. I hit more draws than fades with all clubs but driver.



    GMac has "OTT" move but definitely doesn't swing left and extends down target line




    Dan, is this related to what you were saying about Hunter in the last thread. Namely, his release pattern (let's call it 'stable') causes his hands to disappear around him in DTL view quicker than his club head, so it only APPEARS he might be swinging more left than, let's say Phil or VJ. However, as you keenly pointed out, his arms/hands were actually swinging more out to ball (right); hence, his draw tendency, and I suspect yours as well?
    Posted:
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  17088WRX Points: 1,228Members Posts: 17,088 Titanium Tees
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    Different. Hunter is way deeper than me coming down. My draw tendency comes from my AoA and how far forward low point is in my swing
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  • Michael C.Michael C. Things that make you go hmmm  4520WRX Points: 217Members Posts: 4,520 Titanium Tees
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    This OTT move, I think, is one of the biggest misconceptions in golf. I see people stall and drop their trail shoulder

    to try to get their path more inside or their arms trail from holding them back to get more inside.



    If you take a person with a huge slice and put them on a sidehill lie with the ball above their feet, most of the time

    they will hit a straight shot or hook because it forces the shoulders to turn more level on the downswing and/ or

    they'll sequence better because they think they need to get their arms more in front of them to hit the ball.



    It seems it works the same way with telling someone to slow their swing down. They're actually only slowing down

    the transition which allows them to sequence correctly and into a more powerful hitting position.



    Am I way off base here?
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  • FatReedFatReed FatReed  601WRX Points: 1Unregistered Posts: 601 Bunkers
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    iteachgolf wrote:


    Different. Hunter is way deeper than me coming down. My draw tendency comes from my AoA and how far forward low point is in my swing




    Dan, you have access and have reviewed just about every swing on the planet, and are brilliant at giving good visual analyses.



    I do not know if you have time, but would it be possible to demonstrate in some DTL views the difference between you, Hunter and/or whomever else you feel represents a good example – as it pertains to a professional OTT move being discussed here?



    Thanks
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  • b_f_c_99b_f_c_99 No Warm Up Needed.  286WRX Points: 63Handicap: 4Members Posts: 286 Greens
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    Pull up some videos of Cory Pavin, he is almost a text book example of Montes "No Turn, cast drill" as well as iteach's 'over the top'. Just went out in my yard and hit a few into the field with this move. Produced a nice little pull type draw for me.
    Posted:
  • JonnybagadonutsJonnybagadonuts  1089WRX Points: 35Handicap: 3Members Posts: 1,089 Bunkers
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    FatReed wrote:



    So many of us are under the impression that swinging "over the top" is the worst thing that you can do. Also we get caught up in trying to shallow the swing

    by dropping the club behind us or trying to turn the left arm clockwise while in transition ( Hogan,) .



    i dont know if you have ever tried turning your arms clockwise in transition but its extremely difficult motion and requires a tremendous amount of timing.



    We are looking at the transition of the great players and misinterpreting what is going on . What actually is happening is that they are swinging " OVER THE TOP " of the initial plane . Which in turn

    is squaring the club face. I like to call it swinging over the top from the inside. There is no conscious twisting or chain pulling or side arm throwing. Its simply getting to a backswing position where the club is in sync with the body and on a neutral plane to slightly underneath . From there its simply rotating what feels like over the top. The pieces of the puzzle fall in place the club drops behind the player slighty which shallows out the swing path and the shoulders have more then enough room to rotate freely .



    A perfect example is Robert Rock.







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    Johnny, perhaps you could explain a little bit more about what you are seeing. . . nothing about Rock's swing looks OTT to me.



    You do indicate "what feels" like OTT, and I could never argue anyone's feels, however, I do not see OTT with Rock.



    I am familiar with McLean's planes and, if memory serves me, Floyd is a good example of someone who goes back under plane and re-routes up and onto a higher plane, if you will. I do not know what he 'feels', but pretty sure that is not what most would consider an OTT move.




    All I mean is over the top of the original plane or the backswing plane . However if you take the club outside on then OTT then obviously that would be bad .



    If you take the club back neutral to slightly inside then swing slightly OTT allowing the club to reroute without pulling the handle or jerking on the club,the natural forces will force the shaft to shallow. In turn delivering a square club face along with speed without manipulation .





    These moves are subtle yet should be evident .
    Posted:
  • YonkmanYonkman  29WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 29
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    Carl Pettersson is another great example of this OTT move..
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  • YonkmanYonkman  29WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 29
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    The King AP also.
    Posted:
  • Dan DrakeDan Drake  2093WRX Points: 297Handicap: 1.3Members Posts: 2,093 Platinum Tees
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    Johnny, IMHO the "hands inside, club outside" backswing and "hands outside, club inside" downswing is more prevalent (and always have been) at the highest levels of golf than any other single pattern or whatnot.



    Great pickup by you.



    PS. I remember being a young man arguing with a guy about how Hogan "came over the top." He acted like I had called his grandmother a horrible cook or something. I mean, he was mad. And yet there it was, a hand path on the downswing that was above the hand path on the backswing.
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  • YonkmanYonkman  29WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 29
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    Understanding this has really helped me.....
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  • tweedygenttweedygent  422WRX Points: 31Members Posts: 422 Greens
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    OTT is only bad because you have no room to swing coming down.



    If you come over and still have room for the hands to swing it's fine. Problem is, most players that come over the top have no room to swing, thus early extension, flip etc happens and that's where the problem with coming over the top lies.
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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83  5762WRX Points: 475Members Posts: 5,762 Titanium Tees
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    this is a really good thread for shallowing the shaft. IMO, this is the correct way to shallow the shaft, it will only look over the top if the takeaway is inside.



    ps, What is the karate chop move that iteach taught lv?
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  • HawkeyeDanHawkeyeDan  894WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 894
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    Here is one of my own swings - not the best swing I have ever done, but pretty representative of my game. I think I am doing what you are talking about:



    [media=]
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  • Hot Rod 71Hot Rod 71 #TheWRX  8953WRX Points: 307Handicap: lowClubWRX, BST Volunteer Mods Posts: 8,953 ClubWRX
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    Nice smooth swing there Dan. image/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' />
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  • NoHipMoveNoHipMove  53WRX Points: 25Members Posts: 53 Bunkers
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    Another useless thread focusing on the semantics of teaching a golf swing, without actually helping anyone.



    Looks like you are helping many of the high handicappers to continue on with their outside-in swings, good job!
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  • thekruthekru HeadSteady  828WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 828
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    NoHipMove wrote:


    Another useless thread focusing on the semantics of teaching a golf swing, without actually helping anyone.



    Looks like you are helping many of the high handicappers to continue on with their outside-in swings, good job!




    ^^That was informative.
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  • pinhigh27pinhigh27  9808WRX Points: 333Members Posts: 9,808 Titanium Tees
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    NoHipMove wrote:


    Another useless thread focusing on the semantics of teaching a golf swing, without actually helping anyone.



    Looks like you are helping many of the high handicappers to continue on with their outside-in swings, good job!




    anyone that comes here and reads threads honestly expecting to improve from what they read is insane.
    Posted:
  • Redjeep83Redjeep83  5762WRX Points: 475Members Posts: 5,762 Titanium Tees
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    HawkeyeDan wrote:


    So, if I am following correctly, you are defining "over the top" as simply coming in steeper than where you started, correct? So would Kuchar be another example of this, or is he simply going underplane in the backswing then back on plane at impact?




    not really. Most am's steepen the shaft, bring the club in and swing over the top while steepening. This is a bit of a different move, correct way to do it the shaft will lay flatter from top as a result of swinging arms out. Right shoulder will feel over the top
    Posted:
  • NoHipMoveNoHipMove  53WRX Points: 25Members Posts: 53 Bunkers
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    pinhigh27 wrote:

    NoHipMove wrote:


    Another useless thread focusing on the semantics of teaching a golf swing, without actually helping anyone.



    Looks like you are helping many of the high handicappers to continue on with their outside-in swings, good job!




    anyone that comes here and reads threads honestly expecting to improve from what they read is insane.




    Good point, but a year ago, this site area did provide me with many useful insights. Maybe I've just gotten better and many of the threads are not as useful as they once were. But this particular thread just bugs me. ....Even worse then the swinging left thread.
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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83  5762WRX Points: 475Members Posts: 5,762 Titanium Tees
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    NoHipMove wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:

    NoHipMove wrote:


    Another useless thread focusing on the semantics of teaching a golf swing, without actually helping anyone.



    Looks like you are helping many of the high handicappers to continue on with their outside-in swings, good job!




    anyone that comes here and reads threads honestly expecting to improve from what they read is insane.




    Good point, but a year ago, this site area did provide me with many useful insights. Maybe I've just gotten better and many of the threads are not as useful as they once were. But this particular thread just bugs me. ....Even worse then the swinging left thread.




    bugs you cause you dont understand it?
    Posted:
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to Canada 13328WRX Points: 2,195Handicap: 1.6Members Posts: 13,328 Titanium Tees
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    I second the request for the high KARATE chop move !
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  • jaydrojaydro  367WRX Points: 55Members Posts: 367 Greens
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    pinhigh27 wrote:

    NoHipMove wrote:


    Another useless thread focusing on the semantics of teaching a golf swing, without actually helping anyone.



    Looks like you are helping many of the high handicappers to continue on with their outside-in swings, good job!




    anyone that comes here and reads threads honestly expecting to improve from what they read is insane.


    i don't know if that's totally accurate. I've picked up a lot of helpful stuff from folks around here, including yourself by the way.
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  • rustyhoborustyhobo  268WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 268
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    Good thread. It's a common pattern. It's certainly different from the casting OTT of bad players. Better synch of arms and lower body, and creating a wide arc with a good elbow move. That's the difference.
    Posted:
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