Swing-weighting Graphite Iron Shafts

I need some guidance from the experts.

I have made the decision to try some Recoils and I am trying to figure out how to add weight to bring the swing weight up. I have tip weights for a graphite shaft and I know how to swing weight steel shafted irons but here is the issue...

Obviously the internal diameter of the graphite shafts is smaller than a steel shaft and I have the tip weights for graphite shafts. The problem is that tip weights I have come with a thicker "head" than the brass ones I use on the steel shafts (where the thickness is negligible) and if I were to use them on the graphite iron shaft it lengthens the overall length of the iron. The thicker head also lessens the depth the graphite shaft is inserted into the iron head. For some of the tip weights it is only about 1/8 inch but for the heavier weights it is close to 1/4 of an inch.

So...the question I have is 1) am I missing something like I have the wrong tip weights for iron graphite shafts or is this normal? And 2) will the shaft's performance be affected by the shorter insertion into the iron?

Thanks in advance for any wisdom or guidance you can provide.

Ken

Could you give a little more information- Which Recoil shafts are you using. .370 or .355 ? The heads are ? Do have the heads weights ? swing weight target ? Standard 38" 5 Iron ? UST has some swing weighting information on their web site- have you seen this ? Not sure how accurate it is -

You have the correct weights, but in order to do this correctly you need to first swingweight each and every club accurately to figure out exactly how much weight needs to be added to each individual iron to get the SW you desire. Then, pick the appropriate tip weight for each shaft to get to that SW and you will need to trim the tip of the shaft the exact length of the thicker "head" of the tip weight to account for the added length that the tip weight causes and to keep the shaft flex consistent. It's not too difficult, but takes some time for sure.

There are some other threads that go over the concept I just talked about...I used it when installing some Nunchuk xi graphite shafts into my MB2s and I'm no professional club builder. But you do NEED a swingweight scale to do it accurately. Otherwise you're just wasting your time...

Thanks gang....it appears I am on the right track based on rtaudt's response. I have the scale and I have swing weighted irons with steel shafts many times so I was familiar with the process but I was surprised with the size of the tip weights for the graphite shafts. Never done a graphite shaft before so I figured I might have missed something.

I had prepped the shafts, etc. so I just need to adjust for the additional length from the tip weights. Basically start from scratch and recalculate everything again including keeping in mind the need to maintain the shaft flex.

I play my irons at 0.5 over standard (38.5 - 5 iron) and I like to play my 8-PW at D4. I am putting together some Mizuno combo set of MP69 and MP59 into some Recoil shafts with midsize VDR grips.

Now that I know I am not missing anything obvious I can work through what needs to be done. Thanks again for taking the time to post a response!

Ken

[quote name='snafu34' timestamp='1428542456' post='11315751']
Could you give a little more information- Which Recoil shafts are you using. .370 or .355 ? The heads are ? Do have the heads weights ? swing weight target ? Standard 38" 5 Iron ? UST has some swing weighting information on their web site- have you seen this ? Not sure how accurate it is -
[/quote]

I haven't seen that info but I will see what I can find just to add to my knowledge base. Thanks for the info.

Ken

[quote name='kencanuck' timestamp='1428545608' post='11316093']
Thanks gang....it appears I am on the right track based on rtaudt's response. I have the scale and I have swing weighted irons with steel shafts many times so I was familiar with the process but I was surprised with the size of the tip weights for the graphite shafts. Never done a graphite shaft before so I figured I might have missed something.

I had prepped the shafts, etc. so I just need to adjust for the additional length from the tip weights. Basically start from scratch and recalculate everything again including keeping in mind the need to maintain the shaft flex.

I play my irons at 0.5 over standard (38.5 - 5 iron) and I like to play my 8-PW at D4. I am putting together some Mizuno combo set of MP69 and MP59 into some Recoil shafts with midsize VDR grips.

Now that I know I am not missing anything obvious I can work through what needs to be done. Thanks again for taking the time to post a response!

Ken
[/quote]

No worries, glad I could point you in the right direction! I agree, the size of them seems weird when coming from the discrete steel tip weights, but with the ID being so small on graphite I guess the mass has to go somewhere...

[quote name='rtraudt' timestamp='1428544139' post='11315939']You have the correct weights, but in order to do this correctly you need to first swingweight each and every club accurately to figure out exactly how much weight needs to be added to each individual iron to get the SW you desire. Then, pick the appropriate tip weight for each shaft to get to that SW and you will need to trim the tip of the shaft the exact length of the thicker "head" of the tip weight to account for the added length that the tip weight causes and to keep the shaft flex consistent. It's not too difficult, but takes some time for sure.[/quote]

I was about to start a post with the exact same question. I'm about to build a DI wit a graphite shaft. I have a tip weight with a head of 1/4". I've already tipped my shaft 1/2" per manufacturer spec. Is it correct to say I need to tip it another 1/4" to account for the tip weight's head (extra length)?

As other's have mentioned, it is "normal" - although not really ideal - but for the most part, we're kind of stuck with it unless you want to revert to using lead tape on the head.

It is ok to drill out and enlarge the ID of the shaft a bit to help get the stem of the weights to fit inside the shaft - although what the limit are are hard to say exactly.

For tapered tip shafts, you want to trim the tip to make room for the weight. For parallel shafts, the ideal is technically the same but in reality there will be little difference between trimming from the tip or the butt for 1/4" or less. BUT BE CAREFUL - especially with irons that have short bore depths. You want to make sure you have at least 1" of the actual shaft inserted into the hossel for a good glue joint. In extreme cases, you may actually have to drill the bore deeper to make room for the weight.

Hireko golf has some 7.5 gm brass tip weights for graphite shafts that take up almost no room. The barrel is about the same size as the tungsten rubber weights though so it wont fit in the recoils w/o drilling the ID out quite a bit. I've used them with recoils (95's) but it's only a recent build and don't have much time hitting the clubs so can't say if drilling that much out of the ID was "too much" or not.

[url="http://www.hirekogolf.com/golf-components/clubmaking-tools-supplies/clubmaking-supplies/7-5g-weight-plug-for-graphite-wood-iron-shaft.html"]http://www.hirekogol...iron-shaft.html[/url]

Haven't tried it but had a thought while using those tip weights - copper is actually a small bit denser than brass so was thinking next time I might try some larger guage (maybe 8 or 10), uninsulated copper electrical/grounding wire instead. Only potential problem might be getting it back out after gluing if I ever have to pull the shaft and use it in a different build.

Glad somebody posted this question as I had it too. Good to know about the tip trim on taper tip shafts as I wondered whether tip or butt trim would be best. I recently built three TEE CB ProH long irons with Recoil 95 shafts and couldn't get the swingweights where I wanted (D2). I didn't really like (or trust) the heavier tip weights so I ended up using lead tape. Next time I give the tip weights and shot.

From my experience, the Recoil 95's swingweight on the heavier side.

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1428567137' post='11317263']
As other's have mentioned, it is "normal" - although not really ideal - but for the most part, we're kind of stuck with it unless you want to revert to using lead tape on the head.

It is ok to drill out and enlarge the ID of the shaft a bit to help get the stem of the weights to fit inside the shaft - although what the limit are are hard to say exactly.

For tapered tip shafts, you want to trim the tip to make room for the weight. For parallel shafts, the ideal is technically the same but in reality there will be little difference between trimming from the tip or the butt for 1/4" or less. BUT BE CAREFUL - especially with irons that have short bore depths. You want to make sure you have at least 1" of the actual shaft inserted into the hossel for a good glue joint. In extreme cases, you may actually have to drill the bore deeper to make room for the weight.

Hireko golf has some 7.5 gm brass tip weights for graphite shafts that take up almost no room. The barrel is about the same size as the tungsten rubber weights though so it wont fit in the recoils w/o drilling the ID out quite a bit. I've used them with recoils (95's) but it's only a recent build and don't have much time hitting the clubs so can't say if drilling that much out of the ID was "too much" or not.

[url="http://www.hirekogolf.com/golf-components/clubmaking-tools-supplies/clubmaking-supplies/7-5g-weight-plug-for-graphite-wood-iron-shaft.html"]http://www.hirekogol...iron-shaft.html[/url]

Haven't tried it but had a thought while using those tip weights - copper is actually a small bit denser than brass so was thinking next time I might try some larger guage (maybe 8 or 10), uninsulated copper electrical/grounding wire instead. Only potential problem might be getting it back out after gluing if I ever have to pull the shaft and use it in a different build.
[/quote]

If I used a 8g or 10g tip weight, in addition to tipping the shaft, tipping ~1/4" for the little head of the weight.... do i need to tip the shaft additionally now that the head weight would be now heavier? my thinking - because head weight is now 10g heavier, the shaft will play softer, because it plays softer now I should tip the shaft more to stiffen it back up?

1. assume we start with no tipping to begin with = 0" tipping
2. tip ~1/4" to account for room in the hosel for the tip weight's head.
3. tip additional 1/2" to stiffen up the shaft a bit?
total tipping = 3/4" ?

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1428567137' post='11317263']
As other's have mentioned, it is "normal" - although not really ideal - but for the most part, we're kind of stuck with it unless you want to revert to using lead tape on the head.

It is ok to drill out and enlarge the ID of the shaft a bit to help get the stem of the weights to fit inside the shaft - although what the limit are are hard to say exactly.

For tapered tip shafts, you want to trim the tip to make room for the weight. For parallel shafts, the ideal is technically the same but in reality there will be little difference between trimming from the tip or the butt for 1/4" or less. BUT BE CAREFUL - especially with irons that have short bore depths. You want to make sure you have at least 1" of the actual shaft inserted into the hossel for a good glue joint. In extreme cases, you may actually have to drill the bore deeper to make room for the weight.

Hireko golf has some 7.5 gm brass tip weights for graphite shafts that take up almost no room. The barrel is about the same size as the tungsten rubber weights though so it wont fit in the recoils w/o drilling the ID out quite a bit. I've used them with recoils (95's) but it's only a recent build and don't have much time hitting the clubs so can't say if drilling that much out of the ID was "too much" or not.

[url="http://www.hirekogolf.com/golf-components/clubmaking-tools-supplies/clubmaking-supplies/7-5g-weight-plug-for-graphite-wood-iron-shaft.html"]http://www.hirekogol...iron-shaft.html[/url]

Haven't tried it but had a thought while using those tip weights - copper is actually a small bit denser than brass so was thinking next time I might try some larger guage (maybe 8 or 10), uninsulated copper electrical/grounding wire instead. Only potential problem might be getting it back out after gluing if I ever have to pull the shaft and use it in a different build.
[/quote]

If I used a 8g or 10g tip weight, in addition to tipping the shaft, tipping ~1/4" for the little head of the weight.... do i need to tip the shaft additionally now that the head weight would be now heavier? my thinking - because head weight is now 10g heavier, the shaft will play softer, because it plays softer now I should tip the shaft more to stiffen it back up?

1. assume we start with no tipping to begin with = 0" tipping
2. tip ~1/4" to account for room in the hosel for the tip weight's head.
3. tip additional 1/2" to stiffen up the shaft a bit?
total tipping = 3/4" ?

Yes, adding weight [u]might[/u] require some additional tipping (for parallel tip shafts) or actual stepping (for taper tip shafts) to offset the effect of the added weight. If you happen to tip taper tip shafts more then 1/4 or 3/8" then the tip will not fit properly in the hossel. [b]BUT [/b]that should be based not just on the amount of weight added, but rather the total head weight (orig head weight + added weight) as compared to what is a 'standard' head weight for the given iron. For example, if you had to add 8 gm because you happened to have a club head that is lighter than normal, then you would not necessarily need any additional tipping or adjustment.

And "have to" is a bit strong. It may be the ideal but he difference can be pretty subtle and many might not even notice any difference. Depends a lot on the mechanics of the swing and how the shaft is loaded and unloaded - in addition to the sensitivity of the player and the bend profile of the specific shaft. The softer the shaft tip section and the more aggressive the transition and/or the later the release, the more chance it might be noticed.

For the recoils, unless you are trying to get a heavier SW than 'normal' or are playing shorter than 'standard', if you need that much weight I would suspect that the actual heads are on the light side to begin with. In my experience, they tend to balance nicely and very close to D2 for 'standard' length builds with standard weight heads (and 50 gm grips). And Mizuno does make lighter than normal weight heads for longer playing lengths.

Yes, adding weight [u]might[/u] require some additional tipping (for parallel tip shafts) or actual stepping (for taper tip shafts) to offset the effect of the added weight. If you happen to tip taper tip shafts more then 1/4 or 3/8" then the tip will not fit properly in the hossel. [b]BUT [/b]that should be based not just on the amount of weight added, but rather the total head weight (orig head weight + added weight) as compared to what is a 'standard' head weight for the given iron. For example, if you had to add 8 gm because you happened to have a club head that is lighter than normal, then you would not necessarily need any additional tipping or adjustment.

And "have to" is a bit strong. It may be the ideal but he difference can be pretty subtle and many might not even notice any difference. Depends a lot on the mechanics of the swing and how the shaft is loaded and unloaded - in addition to the sensitivity of the player and the bend profile of the specific shaft. The softer the shaft tip section and the more aggressive the transition and/or the later the release, the more chance it might be noticed.

For the recoils, unless you are trying to get a heavier SW than 'normal' or are playing shorter than 'standard', if you need that much weight I would suspect that the actual heads are on the light side to begin with. In my experience, they tend to balance nicely and very close to D2 for 'standard' length builds with standard weight heads (and 50 gm grips). And Mizuno does make lighter than normal weight heads for longer playing lengths.

Cork and powder still work. I do it all the time. Just need to refine the process a bit. PM me.

Cork and powder still work. I do it all the time. Just need to refine the process a bit. PM me.

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1429287760' post='11381353']
Yes, adding weight [u]might[/u] require some additional tipping (for parallel tip shafts) or actual stepping (for taper tip shafts) to offset the effect of the added weight. If you happen to tip taper tip shafts more then 1/4 or 3/8" then the tip will not fit properly in the hossel. [b]BUT [/b]that should be based not just on the amount of weight added, but rather the total head weight (orig head weight + added weight) as compared to what is a 'standard' head weight for the given iron. For example, if you had to add 8 gm because you happened to have a club head that is lighter than normal, then you would not necessarily need any additional tipping or adjustment.

And "have to" is a bit strong. It may be the ideal but he difference can be pretty subtle and many might not even notice any difference. Depends a lot on the mechanics of the swing and how the shaft is loaded and unloaded - in addition to the sensitivity of the player and the bend profile of the specific shaft. The softer the shaft tip section and the more aggressive the transition and/or the later the release, the more chance it might be noticed.

For the recoils, unless you are trying to get a heavier SW than 'normal' or are playing shorter than 'standard', if you need that much weight I would suspect that the actual heads are on the light side to begin with. In my experience, they tend to balance nicely and very close to D2 for 'standard' length builds with standard weight heads (and 50 gm grips). And Mizuno does make lighter than normal weight heads for longer playing lengths.
[/quote]

Thanks Stuart! As usual, you are uber helpful!

Actually, I'm trying to build up a 20* DI. I figured this thread is completely similar which is why I asked my questions here. Want to test with a speeder hb9.8X, which is .370. DI Head weight 241g, which I don't think is any lighter than normal (at least per one of your previous reply to one of my posts ). I've already tipped 0.5" per Fuji tip trim instructions for a 18-20*. When I do a dry fit (with grip) with uncut butt end, it swing weights around E3.5 at 42.5", so doing the math, if I cut down to 40" finished length it should end up around C8.5. If I then add 10g of tip weight that should move me 5 points to D3.5 which is about where I was trying to get to. I also have 8g weights if I want it a little lighter and get to D2.5. As such I'd have 241g+10g = 251g. Just wondering if that'll make much of a difference to require additional tip trimming? I'll leave some extra room on the butt so that I can tip further.

You mentioned previously for taper tip or parallel shafts to trim to account for that tip weight head, since this is .370 shaft, should I still tip trim additional 1/4" to account for that (not including any other tip trimming already done or will do) ? <Thinking out loud here> This is because the shaft is now not inserted in the hosel by 1/4" and thus in theory is slightly softer (not that anyone would notice) or kick point is now different by 1/4" or whatever that science is, and by tip trimming that 1/4" to account for the tip weight the shaft can now be inserted the same depth as with no tip weights. Sorry I think I'm repeating something you've already said, just trying to fully understand it.

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1429287760' post='11381353']
Yes, adding weight [u]might[/u] require some additional tipping (for parallel tip shafts) or actual stepping (for taper tip shafts) to offset the effect of the added weight. If you happen to tip taper tip shafts more then 1/4 or 3/8" then the tip will not fit properly in the hossel. [b]BUT [/b]that should be based not just on the amount of weight added, but rather the total head weight (orig head weight + added weight) as compared to what is a 'standard' head weight for the given iron. For example, if you had to add 8 gm because you happened to have a club head that is lighter than normal, then you would not necessarily need any additional tipping or adjustment.

And "have to" is a bit strong. It may be the ideal but he difference can be pretty subtle and many might not even notice any difference. Depends a lot on the mechanics of the swing and how the shaft is loaded and unloaded - in addition to the sensitivity of the player and the bend profile of the specific shaft. The softer the shaft tip section and the more aggressive the transition and/or the later the release, the more chance it might be noticed.

For the recoils, unless you are trying to get a heavier SW than 'normal' or are playing shorter than 'standard', if you need that much weight I would suspect that the actual heads are on the light side to begin with. In my experience, they tend to balance nicely and very close to D2 for 'standard' length builds with standard weight heads (and 50 gm grips). And Mizuno does make lighter than normal weight heads for longer playing lengths.
[/quote]

Thanks Stuart! As usual, you are uber helpful!

Actually, I'm trying to build up a 20* DI. I figured this thread is completely similar which is why I asked my questions here. Want to test with a speeder hb9.8X, which is .370. DI Head weight 241g, which I don't think is any lighter than normal (at least per one of your previous reply to one of my posts ). I've already tipped 0.5" per Fuji tip trim instructions for a 18-20*. When I do a dry fit (with grip) with uncut butt end, it swing weights around E3.5 at 42.5", so doing the math, if I cut down to 40" finished length it should end up around C8.5. If I then add 10g of tip weight that should move me 5 points to D3.5 which is about where I was trying to get to. I also have 8g weights if I want it a little lighter and get to D2.5. As such I'd have 241g+10g = 251g. Just wondering if that'll make much of a difference to require additional tip trimming? I'll leave some extra room on the butt so that I can tip further.

You mentioned previously for taper tip or parallel shafts to trim to account for that tip weight head, since this is .370 shaft, should I still tip trim additional 1/4" to account for that (not including any other tip trimming already done or will do) ? <Thinking out loud here> This is because the shaft is now not inserted in the hosel by 1/4" and thus in theory is slightly softer (not that anyone would notice) or kick point is now different by 1/4" or whatever that science is, and by tip trimming that 1/4" to account for the tip weight the shaft can now be inserted the same depth as with no tip weights. Sorry I think I'm repeating something you've already said, just trying to fully understand it.

OK so different project.

Once you get into hybrid shafts and heads, the waters get real muddy. From what I've seen, there isn't nearly as much standardization in hybrid head weight as there are with iron heads - nor with what weight's the individual shaft manufacturers trimming instructions were based on. If you choose the particular shaft from testing with a specific head, then you really need to know the head weight of the tested club to be able to match your build to that demo club. If you haven't done any testing, then there is really no expectation of what "true to flex" really means for that particular shaft so better off starting with less tipping then might be needed and testing it first. If you do find it's a bit on the soft side, you can go back and tip it some more. And yes, leaving an extra 1/2" or 1" for the playing length is a good idea to make room for this potential future tipping - just make sure you choke up the appropriate amount when testing the club. You can also use that range test to check the SW and make sure the feel really does match what you are looking for.

In theory, yes the ideal the would be to tip trim to make room for the weight but 1/4" difference in tip trimming or not is generally noticeable so usually doesn't matter if you tip trim that or take it off the butt end later when you cut to length..

OK so different project.

Once you get into hybrid shafts and heads, the waters get real muddy. From what I've seen, there isn't nearly as much standardization in hybrid head weight as there are with iron heads - nor with what weight's the individual shaft manufacturers trimming instructions were based on. If you choose the particular shaft from testing with a specific head, then you really need to know the head weight of the tested club to be able to match your build to that demo club. If you haven't done any testing, then there is really no expectation of what "true to flex" really means for that particular shaft so better off starting with less tipping then might be needed and testing it first. If you do find it's a bit on the soft side, you can go back and tip it some more. And yes, leaving an extra 1/2" or 1" for the playing length is a good idea to make room for this potential future tipping - just make sure you choke up the appropriate amount when testing the club. You can also use that range test to check the SW and make sure the feel really does match what you are looking for.

In theory, yes the ideal the would be to tip trim to make room for the weight but 1/4" difference in tip trimming or not is generally noticeable so usually doesn't matter if you tip trim that or take it off the butt end later when you cut to length..

If there are only a couple of the irons that require the tip trim to accommodate the tip weight, would you recommend tip trimming the other shaft to maintain "impact to flex" from tipping?

No. Tip trimming to make room for the weight has NO impact on the flex. The tip weight takes up the space of the tip section that was removed so the shaft does not sit any deeper in the hosel than if there was no tipping and no tip weight - therefore no flex change. It's only if you tip and the new tip goes deeper into the hosel that the flex might change.