Right handed golfers should be using a reverse overlap grip for full swing.

Reverse Overlap for the last twenty five years

May 26 2015, 6:10 PM

I have been using the reverse overlap grip for over twenty five years and could not go back to any of the grips I had before.

I started playing about 50 years ago and as a kid I used the 10 finger grip. At the age of 13, with an 8 handicap, I decided to take the game more seriously and visited our club professional. He took a look at my set up and insisted on me changing my grip as, in his words, I was never going to become a better golfer with the 10 finger grip. So, I changed to the interlock grip and stuck with it for over 10 years. I never felt completely comfortable with it but persevered because I believed the club pro must be right. My handicap improved to a 4 during this period but it was a slow process and I had days where my grip felt comfortable and I scored well but many other days where it felt lousy and I scored badly.

I changed pros at this stage, and discussed the possibility of finding a grip that felt consistently comfortable. He changed me to the Vardon, overlapping grip and made references to the fact that the vast majority of tour pros were using this grip so it must be the best. 10 years later and with a handicap of 5, I was beginning to doubt every part of my game. There were days when this grip felt terrific but these were few and far between and for me it was back to the drawing board. I dropped these two grips which, I had stuck by for about 10 years each, and decided to return to my childhood preference and adopted the 10 finger grip again. My ball striking improved immediately but somehow my hands weren't working together like they seemed to do with the other two grips.

That's when I adopted the reverse overlap and immediately began improving.

Since this change, and a few tweaks along the way, I never, never feel uncomfortable with this grip. I have also discovered along the way why I did have problems with the other grips and will be discussing this later in this post. I will also provide detailed images of this grip.

For me interlock, overlap,10 finger is completely irrelevant, I could play a round alternating between them if I chose and it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. I play a lot of other sports so frequently have to change my grip due for one reason or another. Hell the last 2 weeks i've been play with the left thumb round the shaft Sarazen style due to a left thumb sprain i've done this with an interlock, overlap and 10 finger as well.

Grip strength, consistency of grip pressure and the relationship between the strength of each hand and how it relates to wrist alignment are all significantly more important IMO

So because it works for you, everyone else should automatically do the same? Hmmmm.

Why is this advice limited to right-handed golfers?

[quote name='BeTheBall_' timestamp='1432725634' post='11634238']
So because it works for you, everyone else should automatically do the same? Hmmmm.
[/quote]

I'm opening a discussion here and its my opinion that the reverse overlap should be adopted by more golfers. I will back up my argument. Hmmm!

[quote name='Fade' timestamp='1432727019' post='11634328']
Why is this advice limited to right-handed golfers?
[/quote]

Good point. Of course the post title should read,

[b] "Golfers should be using a reverse overlap grip for the full swing."[/b]


What I should have said was, "Golfers should adopt a grip where they are guiding the club with their dominant hand."

For me interlock, overlap,10 finger is completely irrelevant.

There a big difference between the 10 finger and the other two you've mentioned. Its the use of the right pinky that makes all the difference. Look at this image of the muscle structure of the hand.

Viewing the structure of the finger muscles, its quite apparent that the pinky has considerably more muscle volume than the other holding fingers and should be in a more dominant position when holding the handle.

Grip strength, consistency of grip pressure and the relationship between the strength of each hand and how it relates to wrist alignment are all significantly more important IMO

Using the vardon or overlap grip, strength and pressure is biased to more left hand control. By popping the right pinky on the handle this changes significantly.

Post the images and make your case some more.

I use the reverse overlap grip for putting and it has helped a lot.

Need a new grip for irons though.

I want to get the part of the palm of both hands where the fingers meet the palm on the grip.

If I overlap or reverse overlap I lose that connection with the grip. So that's why I interlock.

You better tell Rory quick before he throws his career away.

i just started fiddling with this a couple of days ago but haven't gotten to the course with it yet. i tinkered with it in order to get the club more in the palm of my left hand, and this just feels comfortable. i've used the normal overlap for years to a 7 handicap, but i'm always looking for more consistency. i'm glad to see i'm not the only mid-low handicapper willing to make significant changes to get better.

It worked for Steve Jones (he had an injury and used a reverse overlap to win the US Open IIRC).

Jim Waldron (instructor who posts on this site) says he used to use the reverse overlap grip for years before switching to a modified 10 finger grip.

This quote is from an older thread so it is possible he has refined his views on this:
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/614267-interlocking-grip-interesting-thought-and-question/page__st__30__p__6299435__hl__+reverse%20+overlap#entry6299435

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1359161100' post='6299435']

I discovered the reverse overlap grip almost by accident about 20 years ago. I have medium-large hands, but with short finger length and large palm. For years I struggled with my right pinkie slipping off of my left index finger knuckle with my Vardon overlap grip. That slippage often caused the face angle to change, usually to open. I sometimes had a tough time hitting a draw with that overlap grip. I of course was using the conventional reverse overlap putting grip and one day while practicing after having just hit another pinkie slippage fade, thought to myself "why not try the reverse overlap". Instant improvement and easy to hit a draw, Also - much more stable feeling of the handle in my hands as you have discovered. And more feedback from club to my brain since all five digits of my dominant hand were on the handle. I also gained about a half of club in distance.

You overlap your left index finger over your right pinkie or the groove between the pinkie and the ring finger. Most of my students say it feels really good right away, or within a few swings. Some report that it feels really strange, but after hitting balls for about a half hour, it starts to get real comfortable.

So naturally I ditched the overlap and went to the reverse method! And started teaching it to students here in Oregon and in Hawaii. Some folks here in the Northwest call that the "Waldron grip" since until two years ago almost all of my students were using it. I now use the ten finger Power Grip and really like it a lot. What makes the ten finger part work well in terms of hand unity (the big minus for a ten finger grip using conventional grip/handle positioning) is the long left thumb, it creates space so that your hands stay close together in the vertical dimension. The ten fingers allow you to have the highest amount of feedback from club to brain/mind, and the most physical control/stability without holding on too tight in terms of overall grip pressure, which is vitally important if using a passive wrist c0ck release method.

Ten finger grip does have that lack of hand unity drawback with conventional grip, ie around a 20-30 degree diagonal angle of handle to left hand. The Power Grip angle is only around 10 degrees and totally in the fingers, which creates the long left thumb, kind of like how you hold a tennis racket or baseball bat.

Having all five fingers of right hand helps most folks turn the face over a little bit, whether using Power Grip/ten finger option or conventional/reverse overlap, which is why Golf Digest in 1999 end slice forever issue listed it as one of the most reliable and easiest to learn ways to stop slicing. Steve Jones won the US Open with the reverse overlap, Balaine McCallister has used it since he was a kid and I think Skip Kendall used it for a few years, and there have been a few other tour players whose names escape me at the moment. Tiger hits a lot of his chips and short pitches with the revrese overlap, don't know wn\hy, but maybe because of more feel/feedback with his dominant hand?

Vardon created his overlap grip as a cure for his snap hooking problem. He was using a ten finger baseball grip at the time, literally like holding a baseball bat with both thumbs wrapped around the handle, and most golfers at the time used the same grip. A pro friend of his suggested that he would reduce clubface closure if he put both thumbs on the handle, gripped it more in his palms, ie not fully in his fingers, and overlapped with his right pinkie. It fixed his hook, but what do most average golfers suffer from, a hook or a slice?

Ten finger grip with conventional handle/palm position can have opposite effect, ie leave the face open and cause a slice due to hands being far apart in vertical dimension. Try hitting your driver with a one inch gap between your hands and you will see what I mean.

If you are a mid to high handicap who hits it short and slices, it is just crazy for you continue with interlock grip as there is a very high chance that you are really squeezing those two digits way too tightly.

You can certainly use reverse overlap with driver, likely to get a few more yards at least and for sure easier to draw the ball. Reverse overlap has a slight edge in making it a little bit harder to flip the wrists during Release, which is probably why it has been used in putting and chipping. Pretty big advantage when hitting L wedge flop shots with a controlled momentum "micro-flip" kind of Release, ie no or very little shaft lean at impact.

One potential drawback of reverse overlap for some folks is forming a blister at right pinkie where left index finger contacts it. Usually that is resolved if one uses non-tapered grips, which I recommend to everyone no matter which grip you use, and grips that are the right size diameter for your hand size. Many male golfers hands are too big for standard men's grip size, and the taper in the right hand just makes that problem worse. Too tight a grip overall pressure contributes to that blister issue.

Hope that helps and good luck!
[/quote]

I've experimented with the reverse overlap, but have never put it in play. I had a boxer's fracture of the right hand pink (5th metacarpal) that never healed right and that bone has a slight curve in it, so it never feels like my pinky wants to fit with a "traditional" grip. I do feel like I have more awareness of what my hands are doing with the reverse overlap and have thought about going to it full time recently.

[quote name='TheJollyGolfer' timestamp='1432727432' post='11634358']
[quote name='Fade' timestamp='1432727019' post='11634328']
Why is this advice limited to right-handed golfers?
[/quote]

Good point. Of course the post title should read,

[b] "Golfers should be using a reverse overlap grip for the full swing."[/b]


What I should have said was, "Golfers should adopt a grip where they are guiding the club with their dominant hand."
[/quote]

Yup, especially if you're content slapping the ball and not hitting down on it and compressing it. As opposed to creating lag by pulling the club with your left hand (for a righty).

You've been a member here for three years, you should've know better than to start a thread telling WRX'ers what they should be doing.

[quote name='naventhirty3' timestamp='1432737122' post='11635298']
i just started fiddling with this a couple of days ago but haven't gotten to the course with it yet. i tinkered with it in order to get the club more in the palm of my left hand, and this just feels comfortable. i've used the normal overlap for years to a 7 handicap, but i'm always looking for more consistency. i'm glad to see i'm not the only mid-low handicapper willing to make significant changes to get better.
[/quote]

Why would you want to hold the club in palm of your left hand?

For me interlock, overlap,10 finger is completely irrelevant.

 

There a big difference between the 10 finger and the other two you've mentioned. Its the use of the right pinky that makes all the difference. Look at this image of the muscle structure of the hand.

 

 

Viewing the structure of the finger muscles, its quite apparent that the pinky has considerably more muscle volume than the other holding fingers and should be in a more dominant position when holding the handle.

 

 

Grip strength, consistency of grip pressure and the relationship between the strength of each hand and how it relates to wrist alignment are all significantly more important IMO

 

Using the vardon or overlap grip, strength and pressure is biased to more left hand control. By popping the right pinky on the handle this changes significantly.

No offense, but the picture and your description as to what that picture means are very far off from being correct.

The tendons that control the joints of the hand connect to different muscles further up the arm. The pinky, ring, and middle finder all unify to create grip strength. Using these 3 fingers alone to grip something results in more grip strength than grabbing something with all five (counting the thumb as a finger) does. It's anatomically true, and easy to test.

If an individual grabs something and squeezes as hard as possible using all five fingers, and then repeats the test using just the three fingers I've mentioned, the three finger grip will result in more grip strength than the five finger grip.

Why is this true? Your thumb and pointer finger exist for dexterity. They are finite movers, and they allow very fine motor patterns to be performed (such as writing fluidly in fine print using cursive).

The pic also shows a high volume of tissue in the thumb and thumbpad, but no one would want to grip a golf club exclusively with the thumb... It's not the muscular structure of the hand that has any relevance to the grip, but what those muscles/tendons connect to.

[quote name='jafstar' timestamp='1432736178' post='11635190']
Post the images and make your case some more.

I use the reverse overlap grip for putting and it has helped a lot.

Need a new grip for irons though.
[/quote]

I will have to take some pics on the range tomorrow as I can't locate the ones I have already prepared. If you adopt the reverse overlap, I would expect that you would use it for every club in the bag.

[quote name='Drudersh' timestamp='1432742222' post='11635872']
[quote name='TheJollyGolfer' timestamp='1432727432' post='11634358']
[quote name='Fade' timestamp='1432727019' post='11634328']
Why is this advice limited to right-handed golfers?
[/quote]

Good point. Of course the post title should read,

[b] "Golfers should be using a reverse overlap grip for the full swing."[/b]


What I should have said was, "Golfers should adopt a grip where they are guiding the club with their dominant hand."
[/quote]

Yup, especially if you're content slapping the ball and not hitting down on it and compressing it. As opposed to creating lag by pulling the club with your left hand (for a righty).

You've been a member here for three years, you should've know better than to start a thread telling WRX'ers what they should be doing.
[/quote]

Do I have to cut down my driver to 43 1/2 inches too?

[quote name='crater_divots' timestamp='1432758226' post='11637916']

No offense, but the picture and your description as to what that picture means are very far off from being correct.

The tendons that control the joints of the hand connect to different muscles further up the arm. The pinky, ring, and middle finder all unify to create grip strength. Using these 3 fingers alone to grip something results in more grip strength than grabbing something with all five (counting the thumb as a finger) does. It's anatomically true, and easy to test.

Have a strong individual grab something and squeeze as hard as possible using all five fingers. Now repeat the test using just the three fingers I've mentioned. The three finger grip will result in more grip strength than the five finger grip.

Why is this true? Your thumb and pointer finger exist for dexterity. They are finite movers, and they allow very fine motor patterns to be performed (such as writing fluidly in fine print using cursive).


[/quote]

I should have been clearer on this. The holding fingers in golf, in the dominant hand, are the two middle fingers when using overlap and interlock, and using the 10 finger or reverse overlap, the pinkie is much more involved. That's the three fingers you are also referring to. In principle, we're on the same page. However its the pinkie that gives the other holding fingers increased strength. Try gripping with just the two middle fingers and then include the pinkie and you'll feel a significant difference. BTW, when I using the vardon or interlock grip, efficient hold/grip is being compromised.

[quote name='crater_divots' timestamp='1432758226' post='11637916']

The pic also shows a high volume of tissue in the thumb and thumbpad, but no one would want to grip a golf club exclusively with the thumb... It's not the muscular structure of the hand that has any relevance to the grip, but what those muscles/tendons connect to.
[/quote]

The vast muscles on the thumb do not enhance the pressure of the holding fingers but they do significantly enhance the pressure that can be exerted by the index finger, and as you have mention that is not a desirable function.

[quote name='TheJollyGolfer' timestamp='1432760340' post='11638168'] In principle, we're on the same page. [/quote]

I'm with you, thanks for the clarification.

[quote name='Drudersh' timestamp='1432742222' post='11635872']

Yup, especially if you're content slapping the ball and not hitting down on it and compressing it. As opposed to creating lag by pulling the club with your left hand (for a righty).

[/quote]

Yup, if you were using the reverse overlap, you would be creating lag using your dominant hand. As a plus handicapper I have rarely been accused of slapping the ball.


[quote name='Drudersh' timestamp='1432742222' post='11635872']

You've been a member here for three years, you should've know better than to start a thread telling WRX'ers what they should be doing.
[/quote]

Perhaps WRX'ers should pay more attention to logic.

[quote name='Fairways_and_Greens' timestamp='1432736994' post='11635284']
You better tell Rory quick before he throws his career away.
[/quote]

Ha ha ha f___ing ha!

Too much effort...

Very few topics in the instruction forum really get me thinking...well done, Jolly.

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1432762082' post='11638370']
Too much effort...
[/quote]

Your life must be really easy if you think swapping the overlapping finger is [b]too much effort...[/b]

[quote name='stryper' timestamp='1432762651' post='11638444']
Very few topics in the instruction forum really get me thinking...well done, Jolly.
[/quote]

Thanks!

IMO Vardon had the right idea when he overlapped, thus joining the hands and neutralizing the pressure of the thumbs , but I believe he put the wrong finger on top-

You said you struggled to hit draws before, right?

I play overlap and already struggle with a left miss, so what benefits would I see in switching?

[quote name='baloo' timestamp='1432764178' post='11638574']
You said you struggled to hit draws before, right?

[/quote]
No that was a reply post, a draw is my natural shot and my misses were also left.


[quote name='baloo' timestamp='1432764178' post='11638574']

I play overlap and already struggle with a left miss, so what benefits would I see in switching?
[/quote]
In using your dominant hand for club head and club face control, you are going to achieve more consistency in thid area. Bear with me, I will get down to the nitty gritty on this further in this thread. Adopt the reverse overlap and I will supply the fine points in due course.

I have always used the interlocking grip. The 10 finger grip is a no go for me. The Vardon grip is horribly uncomfortable.

I grabbed a club to check this out.. it was uncomfortable. To make it comfortable while swinging, it dang near almost turned into a reverse interlocking grip where the right pinky was inside the webbing between my left pointer and middle finger, instead of outside it. I think I'm going to try this out, even if it isn't exactly what you described.. it didn't feel quite as loose as the interlocking.. while being an interlocking/overlap hybrid grip that is comfortable to me.