side saddle putters - what putter are you using?

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  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    br61 wrote:
    J-Tizzle wrote:
    J-Tizzle wrote:
    Alright so the last few days I have been diving into this thread and researching online and watching videos etc. and I am starting to believe in the merits of this style. I want to give it a try but I also don’t want to drop the coin for a Bobby Grace, etc. Anyone have ideas on a cheap way to get started? That way I can see if it’s something I really want to pursue and I can upgrade at that point in the future. I found this one on eBay - the Hefty. Has anyone used this one? Seems like the shaft is close to the face.
    This is just a personal thing, but I've always seemed to putt better when the shaft is more behind the face than even with the face. But I'm sure that just fits my style better, so I'm sure you could make any of them work.
    Yeah I had noticed that most of the “better” SS putters have the shaft a little further back from the face. This one has the 80 degree lie angle and is 500 grams and multiple length options. Might pull the trigger and see how it feels.
    80* and heavy (500g+) are two of the biggest things I've noticed that improved my side saddling going from the LFI to the F22. The F22 is just a piece of art honestly. If you got one and didn't like it I'd probably take it off your hands, lol.
    Hey J, Are you saying my LFI that I bought from you is a piece of crap? Ha, I do like it so far!




    Of course not! I still have my other LFI, but it doesn't have the insert and the insert feels soooooo good compared to the solid face one that I have.
    G410 10.5* - F8+ 15* - F6 18* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Hi Toe 54* & 60* - BG F22
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Tko22 wrote:


    I borrowed a JaunPutt putter this evening from a friend, and tried it on my putting green for an hour.



    Eeek!



    Watched a few YouTube vids and flat could not get any consistency out of anything I tried. That putter seemed super heavy, and with the shaft vertical, the alignment looked screwy.



    I'm afraid you can't teach this old dog new tricks. I don't have the determination to stick with it for a 6-8 months learning curve. And I don't know why I thought I would try it at this time as I'm putting conventually pretty darn good lately.




    I will say, the Juan Putt is a solid putter, but it didn't work for how I ended up figuring out how to side saddle. I really disliked being all bent over and the head is very wide, so you can't really hold the putter straight up and down like I can with the Bobby Grace putters.
    G410 10.5* - F8+ 15* - F6 18* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Hi Toe 54* & 60* - BG F22
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 28, 2018 #454
    Tko22 wrote:


    I borrowed a JaunPutt putter this evening from a friend, and tried it on my putting green for an hour.



    Eeek!



    Watched a few YouTube vids and flat could not get any consistency out of anything I tried. That putter seemed super heavy, and with the shaft vertical, the alignment looked screwy.



    I'm afraid you can't teach this old dog new tricks. I don't have the determination to stick with it for a 6-8 months learning curve. And I don't know why I thought I would try it at this time as I'm putting conventually pretty darn good lately.




    FWIW, I don't think the learning curve is 6-8 months, though all of this is dependent on how much you want or are able to practice.



    When I changed, I intended to give it a full year, as per Randy Haag's advice; and I practiced A LOT, plus I played competitively that way from Day One. Two months in, I got rid of all of my conventional putters except one with sentimental value and one Scotty that I didn't think I could get my money out of because I knew I was never going back to conventional putting.



    With ANY change in ANY sport, there is a period of time where you have to develop kinesthetic sense about where your body is and what it is doing. You've hit tens of thousands of conventional putts, so an hour of practice with a completely different putter and a completely different method is a pretty high bar to jump. I was a basketball coach for 39 years, and when I would fix a kid's shot, the universal comment was, "That feels weird!" It just takes time and reps for your body and brain to get it.



    But it ain't for everybody, for sure. While I have absolutely NO doubt that side saddle is a better way to putt a golf ball, it still takes time and commitment, not to mention the reaction of others to what you are doing.
  • Tko22Tko22 Members Posts: 45
    I gave ithe Juan Putt another 15 minutes this AM, and figured out that if I kept the putter head flat on the ground, and angled the shaft across my front, the alignment looked OK.



    Made a few 6-10 ft putts, but misses were way long, so work on distance control would be needed.



    Nothing about it feels right, but I’ll give it a few more practice sessions be fore I return it.
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Tko22 wrote:


    I gave ithe Juan Putt another 15 minutes this AM, and figured out that if I kept the putter head flat on the ground, and angled the shaft across my front, the alignment looked OK.



    Made a few 6-10 ft putts, but misses were way long, so work on distance control would be needed.



    Nothing about it feels right, but I'll give it a few more practice sessions be fore I return it.




    I think that was the big thing with the Juan, you have to keep that head flat on the ground, which like you said, actually puts the top of the grip more across your chest. I had been putting more with the top of the grip even with my right shoulder/center of my chest vs more on my left shoulder. The sole grinds for the BG putters allow you to set them where you're comfortable (in my opinion).
    G410 10.5* - F8+ 15* - F6 18* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Hi Toe 54* & 60* - BG F22
  • gomuskies09gomuskies09 Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    Ordered the Hefty off of eBay. I’ll post my thoughts on it when I get it but I don’t really have much to compare it to since this would be my first try at SS. Looking forward to receiving it and giving it a shot. Not sure that I will start messing with it right away or If I will wait and try to work with it over the winter and switch in the spring.



    Any suggestions or drills for a first timer? Has anyone manufactured or bought a training aid like the one that comes with the JuanPutt and if so does it work well?



    https://m.ebay.com/itm/HEFTY-Side-Saddle-Face-On-Balanced-putter-Customize-Most-Popular-/202390646183?oid=202344989692
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Ordered the Hefty off of eBay. I’ll post my thoughts on it when I get it but I don’t really have much to compare it to since this would be my first try at SS. Looking forward to receiving it and giving it a shot. Not sure that I will start messing with it right away or If I will wait and try to work with it over the winter and switch in the spring.



    Any suggestions or drills for a first timer? Has anyone manufactured or bought a training aid like the one that comes with the JuanPutt and if so does it work well?



    https://m.ebay.com/i...id=202344989692




    I think the key is to hit a zillion putts on a mat, so that you KNOW that the stroke is grooved. Juan's putting trac REALLY helped me, and though I don't use the JuanPutt anymore, it was invaluable as a way to start the process. There is a moment in the conversion process where your brain realizes that you don't have to manipulate the putter head anymore, and it is an incredibly freeing experience; the practice in what Juan calls "a pristine environment" really accelerates that.



    The only other issue, once you figure out the grip and ball position variables, is distance control, and IMO the difficulty of that is vastly overrated. Your brain and body have a MASSIVE database of how balls roll on a green; uphill, downhill, sidehill, with or against grain, fast or slow greens, bermuda or bent, and so on. All that has to happen is that you have to give yourself time for the database to get "translated" over from two hands to one; after that, it's easier because you aren't involving two hands and body movement and all the rest in the stroke. It just takes some time and patience, but not as much as some suppose.



    FWIW, I'm not convinced that biomechanically there is any advantage to holding the putter at 90* to the ground and/or to having the top hand more above the bottom hand than in front of you. All that matters is the path of the putter head, and it can go straight back and straight thru regardless of the position of the top hand; the key is that top hand has to be STILL, which is Randy Haag's #1 fundamental. I didn't necessarily agree with that at first, but think I do now. Think of a free throw shooter; the off hand is offset by the width of the basketball from the shooting hand, but all that matters is that the shooting hand be lined up correctly and that it goes straight to the rim. I see no biomechanical reason that my right arm ought not to be able to swing straight back and straight thru regardless of the shaft angle. It isn't like conventional putting where the body is sort of "in the way" of the swing of the front arm, so that the putter to some degree has to open and then close during the stroke; in sidesaddle, you just keep the top hand fixed and the bottom hand goes straight back and straight thru. The angle of the shaft has nothing to do with that as far as I can tell, and the shaft is only 10* off vertical anyway.
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Ordered the Hefty off of eBay. I’ll post my thoughts on it when I get it but I don’t really have much to compare it to since this would be my first try at SS. Looking forward to receiving it and giving it a shot. Not sure that I will start messing with it right away or If I will wait and try to work with it over the winter and switch in the spring.



    Any suggestions or drills for a first timer? Has anyone manufactured or bought a training aid like the one that comes with the JuanPutt and if so does it work well?



    https://m.ebay.com/i...id=202344989692




    If you wanted to build your own putting trac with 1x4's, it would be cheap and simple; you'd just attach the top pieces far enough apart so that there would only be a small clearance on each side rail. If you want the measurements of the JP trac and the putter head, let me know and I'll pull them out and measure.
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    bluedot wrote:



    Ordered the Hefty off of eBay. I’ll post my thoughts on it when I get it but I don’t really have much to compare it to since this would be my first try at SS. Looking forward to receiving it and giving it a shot. Not sure that I will start messing with it right away or If I will wait and try to work with it over the winter and switch in the spring.



    Any suggestions or drills for a first timer? Has anyone manufactured or bought a training aid like the one that comes with the JuanPutt and if so does it work well?



    https://m.ebay.com/i...id=202344989692




    If you wanted to build your own putting trac with 1x4's, it would be cheap and simple; you'd just attach the top pieces far enough apart so that there would only be a small clearance on each side rail. If you want the measurements of the JP trac and the putter head, let me know and I'll pull them out and measure.




    I almost kept my Juan Putt track when I sold it, looking back I should have. I do utilize a 1x6 that I just focus on keeping the putter on when things get out of whack.



    For just ideas, I agree with the above statement that really the keys are consistency in address, and keeping that top hand still (with the exception being when I just have to whack a putt I'll have some give in my top hand, but I've also topped and hit putts fat with it, so be warned). When most people try out my putter they try to stand even with the ball, when I have it 6-8" in front of my body, so thats a personal thing, just how I learned how to do it. I also fiddle with my right hand grip when things aren't going in.



    The biggest thing I can recommend is making sure you're accelerating through the putt, just like a normal putter. When I've putted my worst with a side saddle, its when it gets going back too far, and I slow down through the putt, which causes all types of problems as we all know. Make sure you're giving the ball a little "thump" and you should be fine.
    G410 10.5* - F8+ 15* - F6 18* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Hi Toe 54* & 60* - BG F22
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 308 ✭✭✭✭
    Tko22 wrote:


    I gave ithe Juan Putt another 15 minutes this AM, and figured out that if I kept the putter head flat on the ground, and angled the shaft across my front, the alignment looked OK.



    Made a few 6-10 ft putts, but misses were way long, so work on distance control would be needed.



    Nothing about it feels right, but I'll give it a few more practice sessions be fore I return it.




    There's no sidesaddle rule that the putter shaft has to be vertical.

    It's not some universal understanding by those who putt that way.

    I've been sidesaddle putting for 5 years now (and would never go back to conventional putting!!).

    I'm more comfortable, and the putter feels more stable for me, when the putter head sits flat on the ground.

    It's a matter of what works for you.
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 308 ✭✭✭✭
    bluedot wrote:



    Ordered the Hefty off of eBay. I’ll post my thoughts on it when I get it but I don’t really have much to compare it to since this would be my first try at SS. Looking forward to receiving it and giving it a shot. Not sure that I will start messing with it right away or If I will wait and try to work with it over the winter and switch in the spring.



    Any suggestions or drills for a first timer? Has anyone manufactured or bought a training aid like the one that comes with the JuanPutt and if so does it work well?



    https://m.ebay.com/i...id=202344989692




    1) I think the key is to hit a zillion putts on a mat, so that you KNOW that the stroke is grooved. Juan's putting trac REALLY helped me, and though I don't use the JuanPutt anymore, it was invaluable as a way to start the process. There is a moment in the conversion process where your brain realizes that you don't have to manipulate the putter head anymore, and it is an incredibly freeing experience; the practice in what Juan calls "a pristine environment" really accelerates that.



    2) The only other issue, once you figure out the grip and ball position variables, is distance control, and IMO the difficulty of that is vastly overrated. Your brain and body have a MASSIVE database of how balls roll on a green; uphill, downhill, sidehill, with or against grain, fast or slow greens, bermuda or bent, and so on. All that has to happen is that you have to give yourself time for the database to get "translated" over from two hands to one; after that, it's easier because you aren't involving two hands and body movement and all the rest in the stroke. It just takes some time and patience, but not as much as some suppose.



    3) FWIW, I'm not convinced that biomechanically there is any advantage to holding the putter at 90* to the ground and/or to having the top hand more above the bottom hand than in front of you.



    4( All that matters is the path of the putter head, and it can go straight back and straight thru regardless of the position of the top hand; the key is that top hand has to be STILL, which is Randy Haag's #1 fundamental. I didn't necessarily agree with that at first, but think I do now. Think of a free throw shooter; the off hand is offset by the width of the basketball from the shooting hand, but all that matters is that the shooting hand be lined up correctly and that it goes straight to the rim. I see no biomechanical reason that my right arm ought not to be able to swing straight back and straight thru regardless of the shaft angle. It isn't like conventional putting where the body is sort of "in the way" of the swing of the front arm, so that the putter to some degree has to open and then close during the stroke; in sidesaddle, you just keep the top hand fixed and the bottom hand goes straight back and straight thru. The angle of the shaft has nothing to do with that as far as I can tell, and the shaft is only 10* off vertical anyway.




    1) Agree. I bought a "boomerang" putting trainer which allowed me to hit a zillion sidesaddle putts in a short amount of time. It really accelerated my learning/getting comfortable curve.

    In fact, LOL, I'm using a Juan Putter in both of these videos.







    2) My lag putting actually improved right away. For me, the feeling like I was underhand tossing the ball to the hole felt so much more natural. It was only the really, REALLY long lag putts (>50 ft) that I had to get figured out.



    3) Also agree. As stated in my other post, and after literally hitting thousands of putts each way - I found berrter performance for me when the putter head was soled.



    4) Yes. Yes. Yes!
  • SchulzmcSchulzmc Members Posts: 71 ✭✭
    I’ve been practicing with a normal BG putter - love the concept and feel comfortable putting this way. I’ve always had a VERY open stance with my normal putter so fully facing the hole seems like it will work well. I just pulled the trigger on a BG F22 on the bay. Can’t wait to get it and start the process to switching style...
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    BigEx44 wrote:

    Tko22 wrote:


    I gave ithe Juan Putt another 15 minutes this AM, and figured out that if I kept the putter head flat on the ground, and angled the shaft across my front, the alignment looked OK.



    Made a few 6-10 ft putts, but misses were way long, so work on distance control would be needed.



    Nothing about it feels right, but I'll give it a few more practice sessions be fore I return it.




    There's no sidesaddle rule that the putter shaft has to be vertical.

    It's not some universal understanding by those who putt that way.

    I've been sidesaddle putting for 5 years now (and would never go back to conventional putting!!).

    I'm more comfortable, and the putter feels more stable for me, when the putter head sits flat on the ground.

    It's a matter of what works for you.




    When I started putting side saddle, the first putter I got was the GP, which is designed to be used with the shaft in a vertical position. Pretty quickly, I decided that the GP was just too light, and I ordered a JuanPutt. Having only been at it for about a month at that point, I still tried to hold the JP vertically, but wasn't sure whether or not this was a good way to proceed. So I emailed a question about to Juan Elizondo; he asked for my cell number, and we had two delightful and really helpful phone conversations, one before and one after he tried putting with one of his putters held vertically.



    His response was that it would work ok on short putts, but wouldn't work well on long putts because the sweet spot of the putter would be REALLY small with the heel of the club off the ground. And he was, of course, completely correct.



    The bottom line is that I don't really think about this much anymore. Putters, like any other golf club, work best when they are used as designed, which usually means soled; side saddle putters are no different. And the key fundamental for the top hand is that is is STILL, not where it is in relation to the bottom hand.
  • gomuskies09gomuskies09 Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.

  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.




    I'll add notes on what I can:



    1 - interesting, i'm always looking for more side saddle options, may have to give it a look.



    2 - heavy is your friend on side saddling in my opinion. Had the original LFI and it was way too light once i started putting with the heavier F22. Don't be afraid to extend it too where you're standing more upright, this was a big game changer for me. I had lost a lot of confidence with the side saddle using my LFI at 44", extended out my F22 to 48ish" and its a different game standing more upright.



    3 - i actually liked the Juan videos for learning the set up. straddle the line from behind, aim the putter, then step into your legal stance beside the ball, you kinda piece together the stance. With that said, for me, I really focus on the line of the putt first. I align the line on the ball exactly where I want it to go, then get behind i and step to the left of the ball and only hold the putter in my right hand, this allows it to hang straight up and down, set it down behind the ball and match the putter line to the ball line, then i grip with my top hand and take the pressure off my bottom hand, look at the hole, commit to the line, and let her go. This is personally why I hardly work on line or anything when warming up before a round, I'll just hit putts for speed because if I don't do this exact process, I'll miss plenty of putts for whatever reason.



    In regards to the 4th, this has been argued either here or other threads (I can't remember), but yes the approach is legal. As long as the putter is legal (80*) and you're abiding by the rules of not anchoring/straddling your line, then holding the putter at an angle greater than 80* is not against the rule.
    G410 10.5* - F8+ 15* - F6 18* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Hi Toe 54* & 60* - BG F22
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.




    Randy Haag is putting with an STX, and you can easily hold that putter vertically because the sweet spot is more or less the rounded center with the bullet back. So if the heel is up in the air by 10*, it doesn't reduce the effective sweet spot in the same way that other putters do. I got an STX simply because Haag uses one; it swings really well, but it's lighter, the insert is so soft and muted that I just couldn't get much feel with it, and it was miserable on slow greens, which Randy Haag probably doesn't play. There are also on alignment aids at all. So that putter, at least to me, is sort of an outlier, and it lasted a shorter period in my bag than even the GP did.



    As to the issue of vertical: The rule states that the straight part of the shaft must be at least 10* off vertical, BUT goes on to say that if the design of the putter is such that it can be held vertically and still be used as intended, there MAY be a requirement for an increased angle; that would be decided on an individual basis, I believe. This was exactly what happened to Dechambeau's putter, and I knew that putter was non-conforming the second day I saw him use it after I tried what he was doing on the practice green. The heel of his putter wasn't off the ground at all, and he was holding it dead vertical.



    So it's a little more complicated than just the 80 degree requirement, but that's the basic idea. I know that the GP putter is conforming, but it wouldn't surprise me if that changed if somebody ever brought it out on Tour. The others, like the JP or the BG versions, I think are fine, and no different that any other putter with a curved or beveled sole.
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 525 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bluedot wrote:



    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.




    Randy Haag is putting with an STX, and you can easily hold that putter vertically because the sweet spot is more or less the rounded center with the bullet back. So if the heel is up in the air by 10*, it doesn't reduce the effective sweet spot in the same way that other putters do. I got an STX simply because Haag uses one; it swings really well, but it's lighter, the insert is so soft and muted that I just couldn't get much feel with it, and it was miserable on slow greens, which Randy Haag probably doesn't play. There are also on alignment aids at all. So that putter, at least to me, is sort of an outlier, and it lasted a shorter period in my bag than even the GP did.



    As to the issue of vertical: The rule states that the straight part of the shaft must be at least 10* off vertical, BUT goes on to say that if the design of the putter is such that it can be held vertically and still be used as intended, there MAY be a requirement for an increased angle; that would be decided on an individual basis, I believe. This was exactly what happened to Dechambeau's putter, and I knew that putter was non-conforming the second day I saw him use it after I tried what he was doing on the practice green. The heel of his putter wasn't off the ground at all, and he was holding it dead vertical.



    So it's a little more complicated than just the 80 degree requirement, but that's the basic idea. I know that the GP putter is conforming, but it wouldn't surprise me if that changed if somebody ever brought it out on Tour. The others, like the JP or the BG versions, I think are fine, and no different that any other putter with a curved or beveled sole.




    Your statement on the issue of vertical is exactly how I understand the rule, but several posters told me I was wrong when I mentioned it several hundred posts ago. I don't think there is a real consensus as GP putters are conforming but claim that their design allows them to be held upright. I also agree with you that the putter works best when properly soled even though it's not a pure pendulum.
  • gomuskies09gomuskies09 Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    So if I hold my putter more upright and the heel of the putter is slightly off the ground then it’s still conforming? But if I had a putter that I could hold vertically with it soled flat it would be illegal?



    Obviously Randy Haag’s method is legal since he has played in so many USGA events.
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Ripper212 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:



    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.




    Randy Haag is putting with an STX, and you can easily hold that putter vertically because the sweet spot is more or less the rounded center with the bullet back. So if the heel is up in the air by 10*, it doesn't reduce the effective sweet spot in the same way that other putters do. I got an STX simply because Haag uses one; it swings really well, but it's lighter, the insert is so soft and muted that I just couldn't get much feel with it, and it was miserable on slow greens, which Randy Haag probably doesn't play. There are also on alignment aids at all. So that putter, at least to me, is sort of an outlier, and it lasted a shorter period in my bag than even the GP did.



    As to the issue of vertical: The rule states that the straight part of the shaft must be at least 10* off vertical, BUT goes on to say that if the design of the putter is such that it can be held vertically and still be used as intended, there MAY be a requirement for an increased angle; that would be decided on an individual basis, I believe. This was exactly what happened to Dechambeau's putter, and I knew that putter was non-conforming the second day I saw him use it after I tried what he was doing on the practice green. The heel of his putter wasn't off the ground at all, and he was holding it dead vertical.



    So it's a little more complicated than just the 80 degree requirement, but that's the basic idea. I know that the GP putter is conforming, but it wouldn't surprise me if that changed if somebody ever brought it out on Tour. The others, like the JP or the BG versions, I think are fine, and no different that any other putter with a curved or beveled sole.




    Your statement on the issue of vertical is exactly how I understand the rule, but several posters told me I was wrong when I mentioned it several hundred posts ago. I don't think there is a real consensus as GP putters are conforming but claim that their design allows them to be held upright. I also agree with you that the putter works best when properly soled even though it's not a pure pendulum.




    I assure you that is the rule; 80*, but with a further qualifier. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but the rule even says how much off vertical MIGHT be required depending on the design of the head; I think it's 30*, but I'm not positive about the exact number.



    At one time, PR Dionne had a letter from the USGA available for users of the GP putter that says that the putter has been judged to be conforming; I assume that he still does, and I assume that the putter is still on the conforming clubs list. But that list is subject to change, as we all know.
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Members Posts: 308 ✭✭✭✭
    bluedot wrote:

    Ripper212 wrote:

    bluedot wrote:



    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.




    Randy Haag is putting with an STX, and you can easily hold that putter vertically because the sweet spot is more or less the rounded center with the bullet back. So if the heel is up in the air by 10*, it doesn't reduce the effective sweet spot in the same way that other putters do. I got an STX simply because Haag uses one; it swings really well, but it's lighter, the insert is so soft and muted that I just couldn't get much feel with it, and it was miserable on slow greens, which Randy Haag probably doesn't play. There are also on alignment aids at all. So that putter, at least to me, is sort of an outlier, and it lasted a shorter period in my bag than even the GP did.



    As to the issue of vertical: The rule states that the straight part of the shaft must be at least 10* off vertical, BUT goes on to say that if the design of the putter is such that it can be held vertically and still be used as intended, there MAY be a requirement for an increased angle; that would be decided on an individual basis, I believe. This was exactly what happened to Dechambeau's putter, and I knew that putter was non-conforming the second day I saw him use it after I tried what he was doing on the practice green. The heel of his putter wasn't off the ground at all, and he was holding it dead vertical.



    So it's a little more complicated than just the 80 degree requirement, but that's the basic idea. I know that the GP putter is conforming, but it wouldn't surprise me if that changed if somebody ever brought it out on Tour. The others, like the JP or the BG versions, I think are fine, and no different that any other putter with a curved or beveled sole.




    Your statement on the issue of vertical is exactly how I understand the rule, but several posters told me I was wrong when I mentioned it several hundred posts ago. I don't think there is a real consensus as GP putters are conforming but claim that their design allows them to be held upright. I also agree with you that the putter works best when properly soled even though it's not a pure pendulum.




    I assure you that is the rule; 80*, but with a further qualifier. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but the rule even says how much off vertical MIGHT be required depending on the design of the head; I think it's 30*, but I'm not positive about the exact number.



    At one time, PR Dionne had a letter from the USGA available for users of the GP putter that says that the putter has been judged to be conforming; I assume that he still does, and I assume that the putter is still on the conforming clubs list. But that list is subject to change, as we all know.




    Not intentionally....but I see lots of guys with traditional putters have the toe or heel off the ground because the putter doesn’t fit them. No way that is illegal.....
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 525 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He's not implying that holding heel off the ground is illegal and it is clearly legal to hold putter at 90*. The issue in question is that a putter with 79* lie angle that is designed so it can be held at 90* may be judged non-conforming, and PJ Dionne advertises that his putter's design allows it to be used this this way.
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 525 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And that being said, after a whole summer of SS putting I'm going back to conventional, so if anyone wants to buy a 41" BG LFI putter send me a PM!
  • deca10deca10 deca10 Members Posts: 88 ✭✭✭
    Ripper212 wrote:


    And that being said, after a whole summer of SS putting I'm going back to conventional, so if anyone wants to buy a 41" BG LFI putter send me a PM!




    Is it lefty?
  • Ripper212Ripper212 Members Posts: 525 ✭✭✭✭✭
    deca10 wrote:

    Ripper212 wrote:


    And that being said, after a whole summer of SS putting I'm going back to conventional, so if anyone wants to buy a 41" BG LFI putter send me a PM!




    Is it lefty?




    Righty
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Ripper212 wrote:


    He's not implying that holding heel off the ground is illegal and it is clearly legal to hold putter at 90*. The issue in question is that a putter with 79* lie angle that is designed so it can be held at 90* may be judged non-conforming, and PJ Dionne advertises that his putter's design allows it to be used this this way.




    Correct. Here's the exact text from the Rules:





    Appendix II, 1d provides that:



    When the club is in its normal address position the shaft must be so aligned that:



    (i) the projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane through the toe and heel must diverge from the vertical by at least 10 degrees. If the overall design of the club is such that the player can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical in this plane by as much as 25 degrees;



    (ii) the projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane along the intended line of play must not diverge from the vertical by more than 20 degrees forward or 10 degrees backward.



    I think the key is the word "effectively" in section i of the above. When a player holds a putter with the toe or heel up, they are compromising the design of the putter by making both aim and solid contact more difficult, just as they would be with any other club. The rule isn't talking about that; it's aimed at putters that are beveled on the sole in such as way as to be used vertically without compromising aim or solid contact. That's decided on an individual basis when a club maker submits a club to the USGA seeking it to be ruled "conforming"; it doesn't apply in blanket form to ANY putter being used with the heel or toe slightly off the ground, or with the shaft at slightly less than 10* off vertical at address.



    I don't have any doubt that my Bobby Grace or the JP that I used to use are/were slightly less than 10* off vertical at address. I also know to a certainty that if I tried to use either one in a fully vertical position, I would have a very tough time aiming and making solid contact. That's where the word "effectively" comes in.
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    bluedot wrote:

    Ripper212 wrote:


    He's not implying that holding heel off the ground is illegal and it is clearly legal to hold putter at 90*. The issue in question is that a putter with 79* lie angle that is designed so it can be held at 90* may be judged non-conforming, and PJ Dionne advertises that his putter's design allows it to be used this this way.




    Correct. Here's the exact text from the Rules:





    Appendix II, 1d provides that:



    When the club is in its normal address position the shaft must be so aligned that:



    (i) the projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane through the toe and heel must diverge from the vertical by at least 10 degrees. If the overall design of the club is such that the player can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical in this plane by as much as 25 degrees;



    (ii) the projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane along the intended line of play must not diverge from the vertical by more than 20 degrees forward or 10 degrees backward.



    I think the key is the word "effectively" in section i of the above. When a player holds a putter with the toe or heel up, they are compromising the design of the putter by making both aim and solid contact more difficult, just as they would be with any other club. The rule isn't talking about that; it's aimed at putters that are beveled on the sole in such as way as to be used vertically without compromising aim or solid contact. That's decided on an individual basis when a club maker submits a club to the USGA seeking it to be ruled "conforming"; it doesn't apply in blanket form to ANY putter being used with the heel or toe slightly off the ground, or with the shaft at slightly less than 10* off vertical at address.



    I don't have any doubt that my Bobby Grace or the JP that I used to use are/were slightly less than 10* off vertical at address. I also know to a certainty that if I tried to use either one in a fully vertical position, I would have a very tough time aiming and making solid contact. That's where the word "effectively" comes in.




    Lets not revert this thread back to the legality of putting this way please? I'm under the assumption that if a side saddle putter is available for sale, that its legal to putt with. I have no idea of my F22 is legal, but given a respectable club manufacturer sells it, I'm assuming Bobby Grace took care of all that, lol.
    G410 10.5* - F8+ 15* - F6 18* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Hi Toe 54* & 60* - BG F22
  • gomuskies09gomuskies09 Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    Sorry I didn’t mean to get it off track. I was just curious and a bit confused on the rule. I have no doubt that the putter is legal. I was just concerned with the method of using it in a vertical position.



    Another question about the set up — do you guys try to lean to the right to get your head over the ball? Or not worry about it too much? Also do you try to set up with the ball in front of your head or in line with it? Thanks again
  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Sorry I didn’t mean to get it off track. I was just curious and a bit confused on the rule. I have no doubt that the putter is legal. I was just concerned with the method of using it in a vertical position.



    Another question about the set up — do you guys try to lean to the right to get your head over the ball? Or not worry about it too much? Also do you try to set up with the ball in front of your head or in line with it? Thanks again




    No worries, the thread just got very off track earlier, lol.



    I lean to the right, probably 80% if my weight is on my right side.
    G410 10.5* - F8+ 15* - F6 18* - G410 23* - i500 5-U - Hi Toe 54* & 60* - BG F22
  • gomuskies09gomuskies09 Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    J-Tizzle wrote:


    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.




    I'll add notes on what I can:



    1 - interesting, i'm always looking for more side saddle options, may have to give it a look.



    2 - heavy is your friend on side saddling in my opinion. Had the original LFI and it was way too light once i started putting with the heavier F22. Don't be afraid to extend it too where you're standing more upright, this was a big game changer for me. I had lost a lot of confidence with the side saddle using my LFI at 44", extended out my F22 to 48ish" and its a different game standing more upright.



    3 - i actually liked the Juan videos for learning the set up. straddle the line from behind, aim the putter, then step into your legal stance beside the ball, you kinda piece together the stance. With that said, for me, I really focus on the line of the putt first. I align the line on the ball exactly where I want it to go, then get behind i and step to the left of the ball and only hold the putter in my right hand, this allows it to hang straight up and down, set it down behind the ball and match the putter line to the ball line, then i grip with my top hand and take the pressure off my bottom hand, look at the hole, commit to the line, and let her go. This is personally why I hardly work on line or anything when warming up before a round, I'll just hit putts for speed because if I don't do this exact process, I'll miss plenty of putts for whatever reason.



    In regards to the 4th, this has been argued either here or other threads (I can't remember), but yes the approach is legal. As long as the putter is legal (80*) and you're abiding by the rules of not anchoring/straddling your line, then holding the putter at an angle greater than 80* is not against the rule.




    Appreciate all of the insight.



    You mentioned extending yours to 48”. Has anyone done the opposite? I’m 6ft and ordered mine at 44” but am wondering if I might like it better in the 41-42” range. Feel like that might help me get more vertical and on top of the ball.



  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    J-Tizzle wrote:


    The Inazone Hefty came yesterday and I spend most of the evening messing around with it. This is my first side saddle putter so I have nothing to compare it to but here are my initial thoughts.



    1. It’s higher quality than i expected. For $80 I was expecting some cheap terrible feeling putter but this thing is pretty well made. Solid feel at impact.



    2. This thing is heavy. Like way heavier than I thought. I knew it was 500g but I’ve never putted with anything that heavy so I don’t know what I was expecting but it’s got some heft to it image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    3. Struggling with the setup. I have watched a ton of videos online and a lot from Randy Haag. Not sure how far ahead to play the ball or how close to my right foot, etc. I’m sure that just takes time/practice



    4. Seems difficult to get this vertical. Randy Haag seems to have his very upright and I am struggling to get into that position. Seems to lift the heel of the club too much.



    On a side note— is that even legal? I know that the club has to have an 80* lie angle but if you manipulate it and putt with it more vertical is that agains the rules? The videos for the GP putter show it being used almost vertical too.




    I'll add notes on what I can:



    1 - interesting, i'm always looking for more side saddle options, may have to give it a look.



    2 - heavy is your friend on side saddling in my opinion. Had the original LFI and it was way too light once i started putting with the heavier F22. Don't be afraid to extend it too where you're standing more upright, this was a big game changer for me. I had lost a lot of confidence with the side saddle using my LFI at 44", extended out my F22 to 48ish" and its a different game standing more upright.



    3 - i actually liked the Juan videos for learning the set up. straddle the line from behind, aim the putter, then step into your legal stance beside the ball, you kinda piece together the stance. With that said, for me, I really focus on the line of the putt first. I align the line on the ball exactly where I want it to go, then get behind i and step to the left of the ball and only hold the putter in my right hand, this allows it to hang straight up and down, set it down behind the ball and match the putter line to the ball line, then i grip with my top hand and take the pressure off my bottom hand, look at the hole, commit to the line, and let her go. This is personally why I hardly work on line or anything when warming up before a round, I'll just hit putts for speed because if I don't do this exact process, I'll miss plenty of putts for whatever reason.



    In regards to the 4th, this has been argued either here or other threads (I can't remember), but yes the approach is legal. As long as the putter is legal (80*) and you're abiding by the rules of not anchoring/straddling your line, then holding the putter at an angle greater than 80* is not against the rule.




    Appreciate all of the insight.



    You mentioned extending yours to 48”. Has anyone done the opposite? I’m 6ft and ordered mine at 44” but am wondering if I might like it better in the 41-42” range. Feel like that might help me get more vertical and on top of the ball.




    Really, it's the opposite. If the putter is shorter, you have to bend over more, and it is more difficult to see the line unless you really want a LOT of knee bend. I don't think you are going to like "on top of the ball"; it's more comfortable with the ball 6-8" out front and several inches out to the side as well.



    44" is a good length for a 6' golfer, I think. One of the problems with side saddle, of course, is that you can't go over to Golf Galaxy and try out the putters, which can put you in trial and error mode. But fwiw, 44" is the length I settled on after starting a bit longer (46", I think?) and I'm a shade over 6' as well.

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