side saddle putters - what putter are you using?

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  • jiujitsugolfjiujitsugolf Members Posts: 8 ✭✭
    J-Tizzle wrote:



    Thank you everyone for the reassurance on the putter. I am going to pull the trigger on it. What the **** right? Besides its the guy who dies with the most putters wins right?




    The only problem is, once you get that F22, it might be the last one you buy for a long time...






    I HOPE!!!! But I still am probably in the running with putters....it's a sickness
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭

    J-Tizzle wrote:



    Thank you everyone for the reassurance on the putter. I am going to pull the trigger on it. What the **** right? Besides its the guy who dies with the most putters wins right?




    The only problem is, once you get that F22, it might be the last one you buy for a long time...






    I HOPE!!!! But I still am probably in the running with putters....it's a sickness




    The F22 will cure you!
  • hardpan1hardpan1 Members Posts: 38 ✭✭

    @J-Tizzle said:
    jiujitsugolf wrote:

    Thank you everyone for the reassurance on the putter. I am going to pull the trigger on it. What the **** right? Besides its the guy who dies with the most putters wins right?

    The only problem is, once you get that F22, it might be the last one you buy for a long time...

    My F22 came in today, will try tomorrow...looks great, feels good on the carpet :smiley:

  • jiujitsugolfjiujitsugolf Members Posts: 8 ✭✭

    Well I got my putter the other day, brand new F22. Took it out today and I love it!! I can tell my my misses are closer and already! Only regret was right after I emailed Robert Grace and ordered the putter I found one on ebay for a $100 less. I almost bought as a back up. I think If I find one or a Lets Face It I will get it. Now Im going to start getting rid of some of these putters!

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭

    @jiujitsugolf said:
    Well I got my putter the other day, brand new F22. Took it out today and I love it!! I can tell my my misses are closer and already! Only regret was right after I emailed Robert Grace and ordered the putter I found one on ebay for a $100 less. I almost bought as a back up. I think If I find one or a Lets Face It I will get it. Now Im going to start getting rid of some of these putters!

    No doubt, it's the best sidesaddle putter out there imho.

  • jiujitsugolfjiujitsugolf Members Posts: 8 ✭✭

    I'm already searching for a back up. Took it out this weekend and loved the way it rolled and lined up

  • brentflogbrentflog Members Posts: 69 ✭✭

    I got an F22 off of ebay. For those of you who have one, does your have a slight forward press to it when soled flat to the ground?

  • jiujitsugolfjiujitsugolf Members Posts: 8 ✭✭

    @brentflog said:
    I got an F22 off of ebay. For those of you who have one, does your have a slight forward press to it when soled flat to the ground?

    Yes mine has the **** kicker shaft and it bends towards the face, I think it is even with the face of the putter

  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,355 ✭✭

    @jiujitsugolf said:

    @brentflog said:
    I got an F22 off of ebay. For those of you who have one, does your have a slight forward press to it when soled flat to the ground?

    Yes mine has the **** kicker shaft and it bends towards the face, I think it is even with the face of the putter

    Mine does not. I had BG build it with a "standard" shaft instead of the AK shaft; the shaft is inserted 1/2" back from the face, and just off the centerline.

    It's a great putter; hope you enjoy it!

  • hardpan1hardpan1 Members Posts: 38 ✭✭

    To those of you with the F22 w/AK shaft...is it face balanced? The head came loose on mine before I had a chance to notice, I'll be doing the re epoxy myself, Anyone? :smiley:

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭

    @hardpan1 said:
    To those of you with the F22 w/AK shaft...is it face balanced? The head came loose on mine before I had a chance to notice, I'll be doing the re epoxy myself, Anyone? :smiley:

    Yes. Definately face balanced.

  • hardpan1hardpan1 Members Posts: 38 ✭✭

    @BigEx44 said:

    @hardpan1 said:
    To those of you with the F22 w/AK shaft...is it face balanced? The head came loose on mine before I had a chance to notice, I'll be doing the re epoxy myself, Anyone? :smiley:

    Yes. Definately face balanced.

    Thank you BigE!

  • deman77deman77 Posts: 176 ✭✭

    This is my first post in years on wrx.
    I just converted to face on yesterday after a particularly frustrating practice session where I concluded that I needed to practice way way more to get better conventionally. I decided I wanted putting facing the hole and after checking it seems people already do that. I have read this whole thread. Watched some videos but this thread tops them. Thanks to the regulars for all the info and supporting the thread - it has really helped me buy into the method.
    I’m 41, been playing for 10 years usually quite poorly 90-110 only occasionally breaking into mid 80s. I started working on the course with a pro and things started improving so I am 13.4 now and my low is 82. I can only play qualifying rounds once a month so they are really important to me to try and cut my index. I do practice nines once or twice a week on my course. We normally pick up on the green with my pro (I had lots of other problens) and now putting is consistently the weakest point.
    My strokes gained putting to scratch is 6-8 lost (after each round I punch my putting distances for each putt into V1 app - formerly bebrassie). I don’t think just counting putts per round tells the full story as i am low single digits in short game and irons according to the app - just really bad misses off the tee and a terrible putter. Whilst I get a fair number of ones, I three putt 2-3 times and four putt every other round. Last competition I had 11 greens - 2 inside 8ft, 4 inside 15ft. I sunk one 8 footer with the rest not even close. A 4 and a couple of 3s. Something had to be done.
    After reading for several hours, half hour mat practice last night and a 40 min practice green session before work today with my 35inch off the shelf two ball (F22 on order) I am already better than I ever was conventionally. There is no customary skip, the roll is superb every time - even on mishits, distance control much much better. The short putts are pure joy to hit. I only over had putts like that as non-repeatable flukes.
    Just thought i’d give encouragement for people reluctant to try. For the knowledgable regulars I will post again as I made some mods to the method and I would like people’s critique.

  • deman77deman77 Posts: 176 ✭✭

    Me again. For anyone starting up - DISREGARD this post. These are ramblings by a new convert with overactive brain who has no good track record of putting but bases the whole thing on two trial and error sessions and encouraging practice results. This is written for critique by the ss veterans.
    One thing really stuck for me reading this thread - question convention. So whilst I love the concept of facing the hole I questioned just about everything else when choosing my starting method. Here are my deviations. I say mine but I am sure someone already does that so I doubt this is that new.

    1) looking at the ball or target. I definitely look at the target. a) I can afford to start from low base - it will take something amazing to putt worse than I did but I do much better than I feared.
    b) I do not have to have my eyes over the ball other than when aligning and this gives me more stance options
    c) I’m a big believer in correct focus point. When I putt well conventionally there is a picture of the hole in my minds eye. When I chip well there is landing area in my head. Whenever my focus is on the ball I get yippy techniques problems, I start analysing putter path etc. I lose distance control.
    I play basketball recreationally and I had a major breakthrough shooting (just started dropping threes having never been a good shooter) after reading quantum golf which is big on focus point. I also remember when I trained to dunk three years ago as part of my midlife crisis - focusing on where I wanted my hands to end up over the rim gave me several inches more vertical than focusing on what my legs where doing - body just figured things out.
    I found that I mishit fewer than 5% of putts this way (f22 has more moi than 2ball so that should improve) and 20% do not start on the exact chosen line but roll perfect distance (this is probably something other in my technique but full disclosure is 25% putts are not perfect). I would take that as an error after just one session and I know it will only get better with significant benefits in the long run. I don’t think people object to this and mainly wouldn’t do it to avoid immediate dip in performance, but I think it’s very important as it also removed the need to have head over the ball and increase options for stroke technique.
    2) this is a big one and a heresy here but bear with me - I will give my reasons. I do not keep left hand still. I maintain the arm bend but let it rotate in left shoulder socket so my putter handle moves. My putter and both arms are a unit that swing up and down out of the two shoulder sockets and have no movement otherwise. I try to align both shoulder socket perpendicular to putt line. I think this is big and here are my reasons:
    a) distance control database. Since pivot point is in the shoulder sockets I rely on the same experience as with underhand throw for distance control. Classic ss players who pivot putter through the left hand grip 6 inches in front of their body need to recalibrate their distance control database. I attribute my instant improvements in distance control vs conventional mainly to this (and correct roll)
    b) I believe there is small amount of manipulation necessary in classic ss stroke. with any pendulum swing (inclined or vertical) it is not possible to have three fixed attachment points - left hand, right shoulder and right hand. Either one of those has to move or right elbow flex must change - else pendulum would not move. I can send some demo drawings and even calculate how much if people disagree but it’s geometrically provable.
    With two shoulders aligned and right and left arm fixed to the club you can swing the whole assembly as a unit in vertical plane without manipulation as from front view you only have two shoulder joints one behind the other and hence they behave like one from face on. There is the matter of having room for left arm to swing so it reduces set up options somewhat.
    c) it always bothered me how the hinge in left grip works - I think there is some friction and it’s possible to add tension there. I also think it’s the most likely point of manipulation as right shoulder is very stable, right grip is fixed and only elbow bend and left hand are two weak points.
    c) this is small and low chance it happens but still - future bans will be much harder - as left arm is swinging in shoulder socket - no anchor argument You can also do it with any putter so if something critical for ss putters gets banned I will go to my 2ball.
    d) you really do not need that upright a putter there is no advantage in more upright putter in this style other than being easier to lean to the right if you wish to stay on top of the line and look at the ball. I just align behind the ball then step aside from there I trust the line is fine and it’s only a question of speed, the. assemble two arms and putter to the side of the line - the whole thing stays in perpendicular to putt line plane - putter lie is just a matter of comfortable set up imo.

    Discuss.

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭

    @deman77 said:
    Me again. For anyone starting up - DISREGARD this post. These are ramblings by a new convert with overactive brain who has no good track record of putting but bases the whole thing on two trial and error sessions and encouraging practice results. This is written for critique by the ss veterans.
    One thing really stuck for me reading this thread - question convention. So whilst I love the concept of facing the hole I questioned just about everything else when choosing my starting method. Here are my deviations. I say mine but I am sure someone already does that so I doubt this is that new.

    1) looking at the ball or target. I definitely look at the target. a) I can afford to start from low base - it will take something amazing to putt worse than I did but I do much better than I feared.
    b) I do not have to have my eyes over the ball other than when aligning and this gives me more stance options
    c) I’m a big believer in correct focus point. When I putt well conventionally there is a picture of the hole in my minds eye. When I chip well there is landing area in my head. Whenever my focus is on the ball I get yippy techniques problems, I start analysing putter path etc. I lose distance control.
    I play basketball recreationally and I had a major breakthrough shooting (just started dropping threes having never been a good shooter) after reading quantum golf which is big on focus point. I also remember when I trained to dunk three years ago as part of my midlife crisis - focusing on where I wanted my hands to end up over the rim gave me several inches more vertical than focusing on what my legs where doing - body just figured things out.
    I found that I mishit fewer than 5% of putts this way (f22 has more moi than 2ball so that should improve) and 20% do not start on the exact chosen line but roll perfect distance (this is probably something other in my technique but full disclosure is 25% putts are not perfect). I would take that as an error after just one session and I know it will only get better with significant benefits in the long run. I don’t think people object to this and mainly wouldn’t do it to avoid immediate dip in performance, but I think it’s very important as it also removed the need to have head over the ball and increase options for stroke technique.
    2) this is a big one and a heresy here but bear with me - I will give my reasons. I do not keep left hand still. I maintain the arm bend but let it rotate in left shoulder socket so my putter handle moves. My putter and both arms are a unit that swing up and down out of the two shoulder sockets and have no movement otherwise. I try to align both shoulder socket perpendicular to putt line. I think this is big and here are my reasons:
    a) distance control database. Since pivot point is in the shoulder sockets I rely on the same experience as with underhand throw for distance control. Classic ss players who pivot putter through the left hand grip 6 inches in front of their body need to recalibrate their distance control database. I attribute my instant improvements in distance control vs conventional mainly to this (and correct roll)
    b) I believe there is small amount of manipulation necessary in classic ss stroke. with any pendulum swing (inclined or vertical) it is not possible to have three fixed attachment points - left hand, right shoulder and right hand. Either one of those has to move or right elbow flex must change - else pendulum would not move. I can send some demo drawings and even calculate how much if people disagree but it’s geometrically provable.
    With two shoulders aligned and right and left arm fixed to the club you can swing the whole assembly as a unit in vertical plane without manipulation as from front view you only have two shoulder joints one behind the other and hence they behave like one from face on. There is the matter of having room for left arm to swing so it reduces set up options somewhat.
    c) it always bothered me how the hinge in left grip works - I think there is some friction and it’s possible to add tension there. I also think it’s the most likely point of manipulation as right shoulder is very stable, right grip is fixed and only elbow bend and left hand are two weak points.
    c) this is small and low chance it happens but still - future bans will be much harder - as left arm is swinging in shoulder socket - no anchor argument You can also do it with any putter so if something critical for ss putters gets banned I will go to my 2ball.
    d) you really do not need that upright a putter there is no advantage in more upright putter in this style other than being easier to lean to the right if you wish to stay on top of the line and look at the ball. I just align behind the ball then step aside from there I trust the line is fine and it’s only a question of speed, the. assemble two arms and putter to the side of the line - the whole thing stays in perpendicular to putt line plane - putter lie is just a matter of comfortable set up imo.

    Discuss.

    1) Looking at the ball or the target is ok.
    2) I say do whatever works for you. But for me, keeping the left arm still - a.creates more of a pendulum motion - b. Is one less variable (moving part).
    2a) I don't see the left shoulder as a pivot point. Only the right - as a pivot point for the pistoning right arm.
    2b) Not sure what you're getting at here. But my right elbow flex does change. My stroke is a "pistoning" of the right elbow back and through.
    2c) I don't quite get your comment here. I don't feel I have any movement with my left arm - unless your referencing your stroke where you do move the left arm.
    2d) To me, the more upright the putter, the easier for a straight back, straight through putting motion.

  • deman77deman77 Posts: 176 ✭✭

    Thank you for explaining the fight elbow flex - I completely missed that it was moving. Now it makes sense to me. So your right elbow flex changes to match rotation of your right
    shoulder and your right hand angle to the putter has to change to accommodate different elbow flex asper picture. Do you agree?

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭

    @deman77 said:
    Thank you for explaining the fight elbow flex - I completely missed that it was moving. Now it makes sense to me. So your right elbow flex changes to match rotation of your right
    shoulder and your right hand angle to the putter has to change to accommodate different elbow flex asper picture. Do you agree?

    I honestly don't give it that much thought.
    My right elbow definately flexes on the BS, and then straightens a bit on the follow through.....a piston motion.
    Not sure what's happening to my right hand angle...."it does what it does" to suppoert the pistoning motion.

  • deman77deman77 Posts: 176 ✭✭

    This is what I try to do. No change in any flex, I do pivot through both shoulder joints but I am trying to align them so they act like one in this view

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭
    edited Mar 30, 2019 2:03pm #680

    @deman77 said:

    This is what I try to do. No change in any flex, I do pivot through both shoulder joints but I am trying to align them so they act like one in this view

    Like I said initially - if it works for you, great!
    I'm sure all of us Sidesaddle putters here do things slightly differently. Whether it's the grip, right or left foot forward, length of the putter, looking at the hole or the ball, putter vertical or soled, etc etc.
    Find what works for you and then go for it!

  • RohlioRohlio Members Posts: 2,310 ✭✭

    @BigEx44 said:

    @deman77 said:

    This is what I try to do. No change in any flex, I do pivot through both shoulder joints but I am trying to align them so they act like one in this view

    Like I said initially - if it works for you, great!
    I'm sure all of us Sidesaddle putters here do things slightly differently. Whether it's the grip, right or left foot forward, length of the putter, looking at the hole or the ball, putter vertical or soled, etc etc.
    Find what works for you and then go for it!

    My way of doing it differently is the correct one... All others are number 2 or lower!

    WITB:
    Driver: Ping G400 LST 8.5* Kuro Kage Silver TINI 70s
    FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
    Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
    Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
    Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
    Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle
  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭
    edited Mar 30, 2019 4:18pm #682

    @Rohlio said:

    @BigEx44 said:

    @deman77 said:

    This is what I try to do. No change in any flex, I do pivot through both shoulder joints but I am trying to align them so they act like one in this view

    Like I said initially - if it works for you, great!
    I'm sure all of us Sidesaddle putters here do things slightly differently. Whether it's the grip, right or left foot forward, length of the putter, looking at the hole or the ball, putter vertical or soled, etc etc.
    Find what works for you and then go for it!

    My way of doing it differently is the correct one... All others are number 2 or lower!

    For you...I 100% agree! Lol......

  • J-TizzleJ-Tizzle Hello Members Posts: 3,370 ✭✭

    @bluedot said:

    @jiujitsugolf said:

    @brentflog said:
    I got an F22 off of ebay. For those of you who have one, does your have a slight forward press to it when soled flat to the ground?

    Yes mine has the **** kicker shaft and it bends towards the face, I think it is even with the face of the putter

    Mine does not. I had BG build it with a "standard" shaft instead of the AK shaft; the shaft is inserted 1/2" back from the face, and just off the centerline.

    It's a great putter; hope you enjoy it!

    Hey Bluedot, could we see a picture of that? I could get on board with ordering one like that.

    M3 9.5* - Cobra LTD 14.5* - Cobra F6 Baffler 19.5*- Cobra Black SL 4-G - Gorge 2.0 56* (@ 55*), 60* - BG F22
  • hardpan1hardpan1 Members Posts: 38 ✭✭

    @J-Tizzle said:

    @bluedot said:

    @jiujitsugolf said:

    @brentflog said:
    I got an F22 off of ebay. For those of you who have one, does your have a slight forward press to it when soled flat to the ground?

    Yes mine has the **** kicker shaft and it bends towards the face, I think it is even with the face of the putter

    Mine does not. I had BG build it with a "standard" shaft instead of the AK shaft; the shaft is inserted 1/2" back from the face, and just off the centerline.

    It's a great putter; hope you enjoy it!

    Hey Bluedot, could we see a picture of that? I could get on board with ordering one like that.


    This mine but his description fits, I'm a lefty...just got the F22 w AK shaft, jury is still out.

  • deman77deman77 Posts: 176 ✭✭

    I got mine with a-kicker position. There is a slight toe hang (probably a 22degrees). Is that expected?

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭

    I have the F22 with the AK shaft and mine is definitely face balanced.

  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,355 ✭✭

    @hardpan1 said:

    @J-Tizzle said:

    @bluedot said:

    @jiujitsugolf said:

    @brentflog said:
    I got an F22 off of ebay. For those of you who have one, does your have a slight forward press to it when soled flat to the ground?

    Yes mine has the **** kicker shaft and it bends towards the face, I think it is even with the face of the putter

    Mine does not. I had BG build it with a "standard" shaft instead of the AK shaft; the shaft is inserted 1/2" back from the face, and just off the centerline.

    It's a great putter; hope you enjoy it!

    Hey Bluedot, could we see a picture of that? I could get on board with ordering one like that.


    This mine but his description fits, I'm a lefty...just got the F22 w AK shaft, jury is still out.

    I have NO idea how to post a picture, but Hardpan1 is right; mine is a righthanded version of his in terms of where the shaft inserts.

  • BigEx44BigEx44 Posts: 268 ✭✭

    @bluedot said:

    @hardpan1 said:

    @J-Tizzle said:

    @bluedot said:

    @jiujitsugolf said:

    @brentflog said:
    I got an F22 off of ebay. For those of you who have one, does your have a slight forward press to it when soled flat to the ground?

    Yes mine has the **** kicker shaft and it bends towards the face, I think it is even with the face of the putter

    Mine does not. I had BG build it with a "standard" shaft instead of the AK shaft; the shaft is inserted 1/2" back from the face, and just off the centerline.

    It's a great putter; hope you enjoy it!

    Hey Bluedot, could we see a picture of that? I could get on board with ordering one like that.


    This mine but his description fits, I'm a lefty...just got the F22 w AK shaft, jury is still out.

    I have NO idea how to post a picture, but Hardpan1 is right; mine is a righthanded version of his in terms of where the shaft inserts.

    Funny how looks effect confidence - and eventually our putting stroke. I originally a few years ago had an F22 with the normal shaft as pictured. Didn't like how it looked or setup for me. Same F22 putter head with a KA shaft however, and I'm all in, and in love. Go figure......

  • deman77deman77 Posts: 176 ✭✭

    @BigEx44 said:
    I have the F22 with the AK shaft and mine is definitely face balanced.

    Bobby explained that AK shaft fit of F22 is CG balanced which is a free turning design (with typical face balanced mallets the CG is severely behind the face balance point) - it may end up hanging different statically due to tolerances and very low resistance to turning but how it hangs is not important as it will not resist being turned with the shaft. The advantage of shaft going through CG is a more efficient energy transfer and better roll.
    I am still trying to get him to explain the disadvantages but my view it is less yip resistant to hand induced face twist than the face shafted model.

  • deman77deman77 Posts: 176 ✭✭

    Discussed a bit more. The low resistance to hand induced face twist is the one negative. This is similar to having a face balanced minimal blade where Shaft will point through CG. The blade will not have all the MOI though so will also have no resistance to mishit induced face twist which F22 with AK does.
    Now about CG vs face shafted mallet. With CG behind the shaft vector when you look in vertical (face on) plane the weight balance is encouraging deloft on backswing and reloft on the through swing as the weight puts a torque on the putter. It’s a bit like a toe hang but in a different plane.
    I suspect this is the reason on average it is harder to control the distance of the face shafted mallets (ie 99% of them). I say on average because solid stroke would not let this putter tendency affect the loft being presented at impact. So AK helps with that but watch out for face manipulation - it will hurt there. I only switched recently and had great results with face shafted two ball but when I started with AK F22 I started yipping short ones left and right. Turns out my putter was swinging across the line and I was just matching the face and 2ball was helping stabilise that but f22 with AK did not. So whilst it practically removed mishits due to massive MOI, I really struggled with the line and had to fix my stroke tendency to remove face manipulation.
    Here is a demo of the two putters propensity to resist face twist. I actually had to apply a bit more torque with my hand on 2ball than on F22 yet look at the difference.
    https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0V5p3ichKTaB5

  • ScratchyDawgScratchyDawg Members Posts: 335 ✭✭
    edited Apr 19, 2019 9:24am #691

    @deman77 said:
    Discussed a bit more. The low resistance to hand induced face twist is the one negative. This is similar to having a face balanced minimal blade where Shaft will point through CG. The blade will not have all the MOI though so will also have no resistance to mishit induced face twist which F22 with AK does.
    Now about CG vs face shafted mallet. With CG behind the shaft vector when you look in vertical (face on) plane the weight balance is encouraging deloft on backswing and reloft on the through swing as the weight puts a torque on the putter. It’s a bit like a toe hang but in a different plane.
    I suspect this is the reason on average it is harder to control the distance of the face shafted mallets (ie 99% of them). I say on average because solid stroke would not let this putter tendency affect the loft being presented at impact. So AK helps with that but watch out for face manipulation - it will hurt there. I only switched recently and had great results with face shafted two ball but when I started with AK F22 I started yipping short ones left and right. Turns out my putter was swinging across the line and I was just matching the face and 2ball was helping stabilise that but f22 with AK did not. So whilst it practically removed mishits due to massive MOI, I really struggled with the line and had to fix my stroke tendency to remove face manipulation.
    Here is a demo of the two putters propensity to resist face twist. I actually had to apply a bit more torque with my hand on 2ball than on F22 yet look at the difference.
    https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0V5p3ichKTaB5

    Of course it's going to take more effort to spin the head all the way around in that position. Does that necessarily mean that it's harder to turn the face a few degrees one way or another in the actual playing position?

    [font="times new roman, times, serif"]"Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson[/font]
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