Hogan's Forward Sway

Since it's so quiet in here and I don't like the stuff they talk about out there == new topic.

Forward movement seems very out of fashion. Everyone wants to stay centred and get right elbow in front of hip, hands in front of body and all that nonsense.

Its quite amazing how far forward Hogan got. His left shoulder and left knee and hip are way outside where they started.

His head has not moved forward very much. His right leg is very stretched because of the forward movement.

His hands at impact are actually in front of where his left hip was at address.

Compared to McIlroy, who's head moves back and then further back, left shoulder stays inside original position and goes backwards early, which explains his very "scrunched up" look at impact.

My idea about this is that to be able to move forward strongly and continuously you must keep your hands and right elbow as far behind you as you can (that's the other side of this topic).

As soon as you get your arms and hands "in front" your body has to stall.

The really major benefit of moving strongly forward and keeping ur hands/right elbow behind is that this movement will bring your arms down to hitting position with nothing else required and it brings the shaft down on plane.

Says me anyhow!

here's the pic i hope
attachment=2938546:Hogan_faceon-shoulders_mcilroy.jpg][attachment=2938546:Hogan_faceon-shoulders_mcilroy.jpg]

Interesting! There's no doubt Hogan moved agressively, and significantly into his left side. What are the pros and cons of this type of movement? It will be interesting to hear some of our resident swing gurus comments in this thread.

Pin, here's how to get it

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STpivHaEGhM"]https://www.youtube....h?v=STpivHaEGhM[/url]

Thanks Joe, nice.
Bit like Sam Snead spreading the knees.
Bit like keeping your right foot anchored too.

Off my own topic but a general comment.
As a heavy practicer and thinker (probably need less of both!) I do so many different things as experiments, dumb things just to see what happens,, try pretty much everything and anything i see or read about, so you would think there is nothing new to feel.
But fairly often on the range I say to myself "gee i've never felt that before".
The possibilties of what your body can do with a simple golf club seem infinite.
I had another one last night, its a simple thing but I had just never done it before. Its kinda two parts and I had done the first part but not the second part.
Then I say to myself "you're so stupid, why haven't you thought of that before".
I am not saying it is "correct" or anything, just befuddled by the fact that after 30 years or more and hundreds of thousands of range swings you can still find something you never felt before. I am so stupid.
Makes me admire Hogan as an incredibly efficient researcher and analyser.

I'd take range research over playing every time.

The Hat likes to use the ground with shear forces, but this guy thinks Hogan bounces his left side off a braced right side:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFPtl6tfbtc"]https://www.youtube....h?v=CFPtl6tfbtc[/url]

His right leg is very stretched because of the forward movement or the forward movement is because the right leg is very stretched?

The Hat is pushing off his right foot, which I'm guessing Hogan also did, because of the extra spike on his right shoe.

Yes I think so. It was a rhetorical question reversing what was said above. He sets up that diagonal post at address abd is then his furthest left when the left side is still wrapping itself around that right post. Keeping that right leg angle in place must make everything move left because every bit of out and back of the left hip will force the right hip in and forward to some extent. Unless he has some sort of superhuman left glute/elastic hip joint.

Ben Hogan had a superhuman brain, not a f'n glute. Please lol

Right leg braces the force of the backswing sway, stopping the lower body's momentum, and allows the right side to stretch to the top of the backswing. The weight simply goes forward before he initiates the downswing.

Swing arc and mechanics being equal, if the body - pivot center - shifts forward, the bottom of the swingarc shifts ahead of the ball as well. This creates a descending blow with a slightly open face. Hogan had the hooks really bad early in his career; I'm assuming this shift helped him produce his go to knuckle fade ball flight without having to hold off the clubface.

Rory's go to shot shape is a high draw. Also, the camera angle is a bit different.

--- End of post that uses my crap swing knowledge ---

As per this excerpt of Five Lessons, Hogan was intentionally trying to make a significant lateral bump.

Also, here's a picture of Hogan following through with a slightly open face, debunking the crap I typed earlier. I just like the picture.

Also, the second swing here is my favorite Hogan swing vid, and it shows what I mean by "knuckle fade". I wonder if it's his true ball flight or movie magic.

Would equipment not have something to do with this as well, especially Rory, dont we keep getting told we should be hitting up with the driver which is probably why rory "hangs back" a bit?

Swing arc and mechanics being equal, if the body - pivot center - shifts forward, the bottom of the swingarc shifts ahead of the ball as well. This creates a descending blow with a slightly open face. Hogan had the hooks really bad early in his career; I'm assuming this shift helped him produce his go to knuckle fade ball flight without having to hold off the clubface.

 

Rory's go to shot shape is a high draw. Also, the camera angle is a bit different.

--- End of post that uses my crap swing knowledge ---

 

As per this excerpt of Five Lessons, Hogan was intentionally trying to make a significant lateral bump.

 

Also, here's a picture of Hogan following through with a slightly open face, debunking the crap I typed earlier. I just like the picture.

One needs to be careful looking at pictures. The orange "correct arc" is a two dimensional view and does not show the inside depth which is mostly behind the dark arrows representing the back swing. The arcs are offset with respect to each other, meeting within the impact interval, so they are basically one in front of the other relative to the depth dimension so it can alter one's perception about how much lateral movement forward there really is, or needs to be.

this is THE greatest Hogan video. the man was 65 when they filmed this in Florida. I get emotional watching it. even Michelangelo couldn't have depicted more beautifully a pair of hands put on a golf club.

Ben Hogan had a superhuman brain, not a f'n glute. Please lol

I was being facetious pal, relax.

Swing arc and mechanics being equal, if the body - pivot center - shifts forward, the bottom of the swingarc shifts ahead of the ball as well. This creates a descending blow with a slightly open face. Hogan had the hooks really bad early in his career; I'm assuming this shift helped him produce his go to knuckle fade ball flight without having to hold off the clubface.

 

Rory's go to shot shape is a high draw. Also, the camera angle is a bit different.

--- End of post that uses my crap swing knowledge ---

 

As per this excerpt of Five Lessons, Hogan was intentionally trying to make a significant lateral bump.

 

Also, here's a picture of Hogan following through with a slightly open face, debunking the crap I typed earlier. I just like the picture.

 

One needs to be careful looking at pictures. The orange "correct arc" is a two dimensional view and does not show the inside depth which is mostly behind the dark arrows representing the back swing. The arcs are offset with respect to each other, meeting within the impact interval, so they are basically one in front of the other relative to the depth dimension so it can alter one's perception about how much lateral movement forward there really is, or needs to be.

 

this is THE greatest Hogan video. the man was 65 when they filmed this in Florida. I get emotional watching it. even Michelangelo couldn't have depicted more beautifully a pair of hands put on a golf club.

Hogan wasn't BSing when he opens saying good golf starts with a good grip. No lie, my start lines were so much tighter after re reading his advice on the grip and making a couple of minor setup adjustments. It's easy to get caught up in the proper swing motions, but if you're not set up to make the swing you want, you're setting yourself up for a lot of frustration.

Also I pinched a nerve in my wrist a day after this Hogan epiphany and could barely grip a club. Scary moment.

Why would the bottom of the swing move forward? Wouldn't it still always be under the left shoulder?

When you say pivot centre, are you referring to the moving the centre of the pivot which imo is the C7 and which I think he didn't move forward?

Hogan's C7 moves down and forward at 2:11

[media=]

Why would the bottom of the swing move forward? Wouldn't it still always be under the left shoulder?

 

When you say pivot centre, are you referring to the moving the centre of the pivot which imo is the C7 and which I think he didn't move forward?

Evidence of him sliding forward is the subject of the thread. It opened with photographic evidence. Gr8 b8 m8, would r8 8/8

Hogan's C7 moves down and forward at 2:11

 

[media=]

[/media]

I think it depends in where you characterise the 'end' of the backswing. I disagree because I think he transitions and then pivots around it. Or more precisely a point in front of it.

I can't find a decent rear view unfortunately.

Why would the bottom of the swing move forward? Wouldn't it still always be under the left shoulder?

 

When you say pivot centre, are you referring to the moving the centre of the pivot which imo is the C7 and which I think he didn't move forward?

 

Evidence of him sliding forward is the subject of the thread. It opened with photographic evidence. Gr8 b8 m8, would r8 8/8

Not baiting you. Disagreeing and 'baiting' are not mutually exclusive. If he swayed forward unless he swung more out to in he'd be more likely to hook it from a backwards ball position not less, which is effectively what you are saying. His face wouldn't necessarily be open but might be.

He'd have to be aligned left of the target line, possibly quite a way left to fade it with an open face and an in to out swing which is what you are suggesting. I don't think he did that but it is difficult to say from the video that exists where he is aiming and what shot he is playing. There are numerous shots that you can only see the start of the ball flight, have to make inferences about the outcome, where he looks square, open, closed with either or both shoulders and stance and a lot of the time it is simply difficult to see the target. Or his orientation to it. Certainly to within a degree or three. He could easily have swung three degrees left, path a degree left with a half degree closed face and hit powerful drop fade that would be imperceptible to detect from his stance and alignment and swing. It's not like his stance is like Lee Trevino's

The alternative is he swayed off the ball and then back on to it. I think there is a slight element of this.

I think it comes down to where you characterise the 'end' of the backswing.

I think he got forward, a lot; but I don't think he moved the bottom of his swing. I think it is an essential part of his swing, personally. He may have had an extended forward arc or he may have thought he did, per the pictures from 5 lessons. But I don't think that was a product of a sway/movement forward of the centre of his swing.

Why would the bottom of the swing move forward? Wouldn't it still always be under the left shoulder?

 

When you say pivot centre, are you referring to the moving the centre of the pivot which imo is the C7 and which I think he didn't move forward?

 

Evidence of him sliding forward is the subject of the thread. It opened with photographic evidence. Gr8 b8 m8, would r8 8/8

 

Not baiting you. Disagreeing and 'baiting' are not mutually exclusive. If he swayed forward unless he swung more out to in he'd be more likely to hook it from a backwards ball position not less, which is effectively what you are saying. His face wouldn't necessarily be open but might be.

He'd have to be aligned left of the target line, possibly quite a way left to fade it with an open face and an in to out swing which is what you are suggesting. I don't think he did that but it is difficult to say from the video that exists where he is aiming and what shot he is playing. There are numerous shots that you can only see the start of the ball flight, have to make inferences about the outcome, where he looks square, open, closed with either or both shoulders and stance and a lot of the time it is simply difficult to see the target. Or his orientation to it. Certainly to within a degree or three. He could easily have swung three degrees left, path a degree left with a half degree closed face and hit powerful drop fade that would be imperceptible to detect from his stance and alignment and swing. It's not like his stance is like Lee Trevino's

 

The alternative is he swayed off the ball and then back on to it. I think there is a slight element of this.

 

I think it comes down to where you characterise the 'end' of the backswing.

 

I think he got forward, a lot; but I don't think he moved the bottom of his swing. I think it is an essential part of his swing, personally. He may have had an extended forward arc or he may have thought he did, per the pictures from 5 lessons. But I don't think that was a product of a sway/movement forward of the centre of his swing.

What I suggest is that a club face is almost always open before it hits the bottom of the swing arc. I have no idea what a drop fade is, and that's ignorance on my part. Can you elaborate on the ballflight principles? I want a better understanding of them. EDIT: Never mind, I found a very informative page. http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

Thanks for questioning my post and helping me expand my knowledge. :D. Still don't know what a drop fade is . . .

You claim the bottom of the swing arc is below the left armpit. Hogan's left armpit clearly shifted toward the target in the first photo posted in the thread. What are the benefits of keeping it - bottom - in the same spot - or behind - as address? I'm not denying there are benefits; in fact, I think there are some.

What I suggest is that a club face is almost always open before it hits the bottom of the swing arc. I have no idea what a drop fade is, and that's ignorance on my part. Can you elaborate on the ballflight principles? I want a better understanding of them. EDIT: Never mind, I found a very informative page. http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

Thanks for questioning my post and helping me expand my knowledge. :D. Still don't know what a drop fade is . . .

 

You claim the bottom of the swing arc is below the left armpit. Hogan's left armpit clearly shifted toward the target in the first photo posted in the thread. What are the benefits of keeping it - bottom - in the same spot - or behind - as address? I'm not denying there are benefits; in fact, I think there are some.

I've made a huge assumption about your description of a 'knucklefade' being a type of 'push fade'. Is that how you would describe it? I personally can't see how one hit from the 'outside' is going to be any less powerful. And in the description of the KF I read it was also suggested that some players like to stand closer and play the ball up, both of which adjustments run counter to it. It makes me doubt that one can say definitively this is what he hit.

I still think it is all about where the backswing ends and at what point he starts to unwind. I think from address his pivot centre (and therefore the shoulder effectively) clearly gets ahead, but not from when he starts to transition. Where that exact point is in a very flowing swing might be somewhat open to interpretation.

EDIT: I'd say 32 seconds and one frame is the top of his backswing; and 33 seconds is when he starts to unwind. I don't see his pivot centre moving forward from that point. I think the still picture at the top of the page is from the equivalent of 31 seconds in this footage.

A 'drop fade' to me is a ball that starts straight and appears to drop a fraction to the right at its apex.

I think you're right in that if you get ahead of it before the downswing commences, to have a relatively neutral path you'd likely (probably would instinctively) steepen the shaft and swing plane to avoid being excessively in to out. I think that could open the face significantly and not slightly though. He shallows it in most footage I've seen though which is another reason why I don't think he got ahead of it. If you got ahead of it and shallowed you're going to hit all sorts depending upon face-path with (I would have thought) a severely in-to-out path.

I personally don't think there is any 'advantage' to keeping your left shoulder 'where it is' but I don't see that McIlroy does that. First of all I don't think Ben Hogan is at the top of his backswing in picture 2. But let's assume he is. His left shoulder has travelled just over 'half' the width of the purple and green line, then through the line. McIlroy's travels the full width of the lines and then from the top of the backswing nearly all the way back. It appears to me to move on a higher angle too. From the top of their respective backswing positions I would argue he gets at least as 'through the shot', just on a higher angle relative to the ground and from a point further back.

I think this difference is because he is striking a completely different design and loft of driver and ball.

A push fade has more compression than an outside-in wipe fade.