Pete Dye courses?

So what's the strategy for playing a Pete Dye course. I had the pleasure of Playing Mystic Rock at Nemacolin woodlands in Pa for the fourth time and the lowest I have shot was a 89. Normal courses I'm a 4-6 hcp. I shot an 90 over the weekend and was playing really well. I just don't get it, I had well place tee balls that hit the fairway and then faced with an impossible approach because of mounding/elevated greens and just flat out being in the wrong place. Every approach shot required a yardage other then what the GPS required. For example one hole I hit a driver with a draw and the ball rolled to about 280 and had a 97 yard approach to a front pin that had severe sloping in the front of the green. Miss it short and your playing for double bogey. I played a 3/4 pitching wedge and the ball flight was perfect and hit 4' right of the flag and released 40' down the green and up onto the next tier. I was faced with a putt that I had to aim 90* left of the pin and putt the ball up the hill and have it almost stop and release to the pin. I have no clue how I was supposed to play that hole. Full GW would spin off the front and 3/4 PW didn't spin enough to hold the tier on the green. I played two well struck shots and was rewarded with a kick to the groin. The par 5's were just flat out impossible. Well struck drive that hits the fairway would run OB or into a lake. Seemed like every shots landing zone was an upside down bowl. I know he is famed for target golf but this was absurd. If you don't hit his target on the tee ball then you are left with a 180 yard shot that had to carry a bunker to an elevated green with a water hazard behind it. Ughhhh! Had a buddy that plays to about same hcp as me shot and 86 and said that was his best round to date there. So what is the strategy for playing a Pete Dye course or should I just avoid it all together for my sanity?

I can't remember playing any Pete Dye course and actually enjoying it.

I've stopped playing them altogether.

Doesn't help that they're the most expensive options most of the time.

I've only played the Honors Course which many have said is his best course.

It's all about precision with every shot. I chipped excellent so that was a big help because some misses are unavoidable. Every shot seemed to be a grind, but very fair. I loved the course.

Tpc sawgrass is awesome and very fair. So is Kiawah. Teeth of the dog is another great course.

Nicklaus designs are the ones I completely hate playing.

I have only played one of Jack's courses. Long Bay in S.C. and shot a 74 on it. I can still remember I was playing the 2009 Ap2's with the first version of the Bridgestone B330-RX. Seemed like every ball bounced to the center of the fairway and all the greens funneled the ball to the hole. Then we played Myrtle beach National the next day and now I hate Arnold Palmer. Just a boring course with squirrels the size of small dogs that come out to greet you.

Pete Dye courses almost always stress the driver. He wants you to hit it well. The good news is that most of them don't require you to hit it super long. Just make good contact, good trajectory and be accurate. What I dislike about his designs is that he tends to have a lot of blind tee shots with trouble on both sides and it's hard to gauge where exactly the trouble is. Even worse, you might hit a shot slightly offline and then because you can't see the shot land, you can have a hard time finding it.

However, that doesn't apply to all of his courses. For example, Old Marsh is one of my favorite courses ever and it is a Pete Dye design. For the most part, no holes are like that.

Anyway, Dye likes to really mess with the visuals off the tee. He loves to aim the tee box crooked so the golfer aims over there. He likes to make a landing area seem smaller than it really is. All of those little tricky things to throw the golfer off. That's why when you look at the events on Tour that are Pete Dye designs, usually they favor the golfers that drive it the best that week.






RH

Dye has designed hundreds of courses, so there is no one specific answer. Most of his courses are very fair, but some of the resort courses he's done are a bit over the top. Usually at the request of the developer who wants to brag about having a ridiculously hard golf course. Such is likely the case here, though I've never played this course in question

As mentioned above, Dye tries to mentally deceive you off the tee. It looks impossible most of the time and then when you get halfway to your ball you see that there was a lot of landing room. He also likes to use elevations to make the hole harder. Finally, he loves sand and railroad ties as a way to frame the course. If you can play each hole one at a time instead of trying to play each 9, it becomes more of a chess game. Last time I played Whistling Straits, I shot 74 and had a mental picture of taking Pete's Queen in chess and him sitting back in his chair and asking me to play again. It is a gratifying feeling to beat Pete.

[quote name='Barracuda' timestamp='1441719748' post='12280352']Tpc sawgrass is awesome and very fair. So is Kiawah. Teeth of the dog is another great course.

Nicklaus designs are the ones I completely hate playing.[/quote]
Or you could be like me and enjoy Nicklaus designs and think TPC Sawgrass is the least fun golf course I have played more than 5 times.

The only Dye course that I have enjoyed is Long Cove. Like a couple of posters here I actually go out of my way to avoid his courses if possible. I've played pretty much all of the name ones and felt they were an attempt to extract all enjoyment from the game

Now, if you really want to play a bunch of Dye courses I recommend heading to Indiana.

ETA that driver is by far the strongest part of my game and I still struggle to enjoy any Dye course.

I play several Dye courses in the Hilton Head area and some are a $itch, but a couple are somewhat fair.
Long Cove in Hilton Head is a great Dye track and actually pretty fair. Harbour Town on the other hand is a PITA - especially if you aren't driving it perfectly. It's one of the few courses where you can hit your tee shot in the fairway and still not have a shot at the pin because you were on the "wrong side" of the fairway.
The Dye course in Colleton River is ok too and the most "open" Dye course I have ever played is Hampton Hall out in Bluffton. However, if you end up in a fairway bunker you may as well get your sandwedge out because with the high lips, it's going to be a layup. Course is LONG too, around 7500 and it seems like the wind is ALWAYS blowing there.

Dye definitely plays with your head off the tee box. If you aren't driving it well on a Dye course you're going to have a long day.
Better bring a great short game too.

I find Dye very fair. You miss a shot don't try hero it back just take your medicine. He has a way to make you think you still have a chance. Sawgrass is a good example. In the trees you typically have a shot but even though it looks ok you have almost zero chance of holding the green and will probably end up in a bad bunker or worse and make double. Most of his courses will give you this option from troubled shots off the tee. That's where I found my success on his courses. And when you rip a tee shot birdies are in range but just don't force them. Might need to make some 15ft putts.

I have started to turn the corner on Dye and now find myself enjoying some of his layouts, quirks and styles. I used to pretty much despise his tracks until a trip last year to Kohler. Played Black Wolf Run - River (which I hated by the way) and both WS courses. Playing the courses with a caddie certainly helped me understand the course design and how things would work beyond simply what your eye tells you. About a month after playing in Kohler, I made it to The Ocean Course. That place is truly a masterpiece and really gave me a new found respect for Dye.

The thing for me is that his courses generally take playing it more than once to understand the lines, slopes, etc. It's not like a Donald Ross or a Seth Raynor track where what you see is what you get. Dye's designs are very deceptive. Playing them with a caddie certainly helped me understand this and shaved some serious strokes off my round.

I used to play his Kampen course at Purdue all the time and echo what a lot of people say. You have to drive the ball well and grind a lot of shots out. If you try to hit hero shots you'll usually get punished severely--so you have to play a particular course enough to learn the visual tricks, play fairly conservative golf (sometimes that means not shooting for pins), and chip well.

I've played the Kohler courses a lot over the years. I really like The River Course and The Irish Course. But I find Whistling Straights frustrating. There're too many lies in green side bunkers that are too narrow to take a stance, little pockets on the perimeters that your ball can roll in, but aren't wide enough to even put one foot in. The last time I played there it happened three times on 9, 11 and 18.

From Pete Dye- "Bury Me In a Pot Bunker"

[b][i]"The first thing most golfers do when they play my courses is pick the wrong tees."[/i][/b]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1441815115' post='12287840']
From Pete Dye- "Bury Me In a Pot Bunker"

[b][i]"The first thing most golfers do when they play my courses is pick the wrong tees."[/i][/b]
[/quote]


I think the same could be said for every course.

I'm playing Pete Dye's French Lick course on Sunday, I'll definitely be playing the 6100 yard tees as opposed to the next in line 6700 yard tees. Seems odd that there isn't an option in the middle though.

[quote name='zer0' timestamp='1441818249' post='12288142']
[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1441815115' post='12287840']
From Pete Dye- "Bury Me In a Pot Bunker"

[b][i]"The first thing most golfers do when they play my courses is pick the wrong tees."[/i][/b]
[/quote]


I think the same could be said for every course.

I'm playing Pete Dye's French Lick course on Sunday, I'll definitely be playing the 6100 yard tees as opposed to the next in line 6700 yard tees. Seems odd that there isn't an option in the middle though.
[/quote]

Zer0-

No one is forcing you to play 18 tees of the same color.
If you need some length, then adjust some at the turn (or the par 3s), but remember...this is Pete Dye.

[quote name='zer0' timestamp='1441818249' post='12288142']
[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1441815115' post='12287840']
From Pete Dye- "Bury Me In a Pot Bunker"

[b][i]"The first thing most golfers do when they play my courses is pick the wrong tees."[/i][/b]
[/quote]


I think the same could be said for every course.

I'm playing Pete Dye's French Lick course on Sunday, I'll definitely be playing the 6100 yard tees as opposed to the next in line 6700 yard tees. Seems odd that there isn't an option in the middle though.
[/quote]
Hope you enjoy - French Lick is one of the best experiences of my life. Totally heavenly setting and not near as penal as Whistling Straits as recovery shots are possible.

I've played quite a few Pete Dye courses with a real love hate relationship. I think the key is that you have to get used to the fact that he is going to trick you visually, especially off the tee. I got over one nemesis course by studying a yardage book until I had the exact lines for every tee shot. If a shot into the green looks short and easy, beware, because it likely is not and you should play it a little safer. The final thing is that more so than most courses, be prepared for good and bad bounces - he makes it that way - although a few of the things described in the original post may be due to the local set up.

No modern architect brings different angles into lines of play as effectively as Pete Dye.

Mr. Dye is completely incapable of drawing a straight line.

I mean that as a compliment.

For those who have never imbibed, Mystic Rock is one of the few courses in the world where for one tee shot, you literally aim for the windmill.

Pete's one of the best architects in golf. Thing is, you need to buy the yardage book and work your way backwards to understand his Dye-abolical thinking. I usually play better on his tracks, same for mid 80s Nicklaus courses....the harder the better.

Maybe this is what I'm missing. I have been using my Skycaddie and really don't pay attention once I figure out a yardage to a bunker or a tree. A lot of the tee balls at Mystic require a line that does not feel natural. Aim the ball at the lake on 16 even though you cant reach it. If you aim short of the trap on the right about 270, A 3W rolls right into it because the way it slopes when the ball lands at about 230 and you cant carry it with a driver because it sticks up like a baseball glove to catch your drive.. Im going have to look around to see if I can find a yardage book. Even the approach shots I would look at my GPS and It would say 140 and I automatically grab an 8 iron and play away. Meanwhile my ball hits center of the green and bounds off the back into a butt-hole of a bunker and I'm now playing for double bogey.

[quote name='Hondabuff' timestamp='1441826183' post='12288780']
Maybe this is what I'm missing. I have been using my Skycaddie and really don't pay attention once I figure out a yardage to a bunker or a tree. A lot of the tee balls at Mystic require a line that does not feel natural. Aim the ball at the lake on 16 even though you cant reach it. If you aim short of the trap on the right about 270, A 3W rolls right into it because the way it slopes when the ball lands at about 230 and you cant carry it with a driver because it sticks up like a baseball glove to catch your drive.. Im going have to look around to see if I can find a yardage book. Even the approach shots I would look at my GPS and It would say 140 and I automatically grab an 8 iron and play away. Meanwhile my ball hits center of the green and bounds off the back into a butt-hole of a bunker and I'm now playing for double bogey.
[/quote]

Yeah, there is a par 3 (#5) on his Kampen course that has a back pin in a sort of crescent that opens to the back of the green. If the pin is back there, you can't really go after the pin unless you hit a spot he size of a towel or it always bounces off the back. You have to play off the green to the right and chip over and putt for par, or putt up a tough slope with crazy breaks, or hope your ball rolls up the slope and settles.

I worked the women's NCAA championship there some year back, and of all the morning groups only one player got her shot to stick.

I've only played Karsten in Tempe, AZ, once. Not a world renowned Pete Dye course, but I felt I got a sense of what everyone talks about when it comes to the Architect. In most cases, if you decide to attack the pin and miss your shot then you will be punished. I have never played a course that looked so easy yet proved to be so difficult. This was the first time on the golf course I felt like I was playing chess with the Architect. I guess that's why you'll hear Faldo and other's call his courses Dye-abolical.

On a side note, my group had nearly been hit twice on the green from the group on the adjacent hole. I not sure if the golfers here are that bad, this course is that cramp, or Pete is that ruthless. Probably something to do with the age of the course, the limited space available, modern golf equipment and really bad golfers.

[quote name='Hondabuff' timestamp='1441826183' post='12288780']
Maybe this is what I'm missing. I have been using my Skycaddie and really don't pay attention once I figure out a yardage to a bunker or a tree. A lot of the tee balls at Mystic require a line that does not feel natural. Aim the ball at the lake on 16 even though you cant reach it. If you aim short of the trap on the right about 270, A 3W rolls right into it because the way it slopes when the ball lands at about 230 and you cant carry it with a driver because it sticks up like a baseball glove to catch your drive.. Im going have to look around to see if I can find a yardage book. Even the approach shots I would look at my GPS and It would say 140 and I automatically grab an 8 iron and play away. Meanwhile my ball hits center of the green and bounds off the back into a butt-hole of a bunker and I'm now playing for double bogey.
[/quote]

I took a golf trip to Pittsburgh about a decade ago. We played old Stonewall/Mystic Rock/Oakmont...It was the most miserable golf of my life...I can't imagine 3 harder courses to play back to back to back...Dye courses I have found to be some of the most challenging tracks because they require pinpoint accuracy and the green complexes (especially because of his affinity for elevating a green) make for nearly impossible 2nd shots. You can hit a couple of great shots and be rewarded with an impossible putt, or a chip that you can't possibly get close...

Honestly, I have played Mystic Rock a couple times and i just dont find it as hard as you make it out to be. Maybe it was because I was playing shorter tees but I felt like the course fit my eye nicely. Las time I played there, I shot the same score as you but as a 13. My short game was on fire that day though so that definitely helped.

With a white tee slope of 136, it is hard to argue against the difficulty of the course...also, if you play to a 13 (roughly an 85 average), but you had to have a day where your short game was on fire to shoot 5 strokes worse than your hc, that speaks to the difficulty...I know from the championship tees the course plays to a 77/150, which is absolutely ridiculous.

[quote name='bcawley01' timestamp='1442238235' post='12310978']
Honestly, I have played Mystic Rock a couple times and i just dont find it as hard as you make it out to be. Maybe it was because I was playing shorter tees but I felt like the course fit my eye nicely. Las time I played there, I shot the same score as you but as a 13. My short game was on fire that day though so that definitely helped.
[/quote]

This was the 4th time I have played Mystic and the tee's where back. The white was where the blue normally are. The course was firm fast and it was 90* out. Only 9-Wedges where holding the greens with a Prov1x, even at that I had a few wedges release on me from the fairway.

Number 15 here in the Picture, My buddy and I hit it both 290 off the tee and had 97 to the pin on the GPS. Both of us hit the green within 4 yards of the pin and where off the back of the green. Pin was about 10' from the back edge on a backwards facing slope. Proper play was 85 yards to the downslope to let it release down to the pin. You can see from the picture that a Pete Dye design, you have no clue how big that green was.

[url="http://imageshack.com/a/img537/7853/UFerhw.jpg"]http://imageshack.co...7853/UFerhw.jpg[/url]

I've found Dye courses to be tough and require a certain level of course management, ie hitting to a particular side of the fairway or portion of the green but basically fair, especially for the senior or average player. Whereas I've found a number of Nicklaus courses fair for the strong player but unplayable on some holes for the average player from the white tees. Like having the carry distance for a par-3 to be 215-220 from the white tees. Sorry but the average golfer can't carry 210 or so, especially if there is some wind into his face.

Actually played a number of times, a Dye course without railroad ties at all - Pound Ridge in Pound RIdge NY doesn't have a rr tie on the course (all rock formations). Southern Hills in Florida is another where elevation and bunkers are the obstacles. But both have typical Dye carry lines to the fairway and typical pot bunkers scattered near several greens.

Pound Ridge is a tough track.