Too Shallow = No spin Monte Help

 lawrencedc1 ·  
lawrencedc1lawrencedc1 Members  718WRX Points: 71Handicap: 12.1Posts: 718 Golden Tee
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So...Here it goes!



First let me disclose I am a mid-cap hack who as of recent is a ardent follower of Monte on here.



I am on a quest to get spin. I went to a trackman fitting today and posted these averages:



BS: 118.9 CSpeed: 84.5 Launch ang. 16.2 Spin rate: 4810 Carry 179.7 Total: 193.5 Attack Ang: -1.1 club path 4.1



Dynamic loft: 20.2 land ang: 41.1 Smash: 1.41



All of this with the mizuno optimizer which was fairly mundane at 4-5 except my release factor which was an 8! Very Early! Am I a dreaded Flipper?



So the fitter tells me after numerous shafts, I am too shallow and do not create enough spin on the ball, and proceeds to tell me to get steep! image/nono.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':nono:' />

I can say this "Monte if your listening" my only feel or intent from the columbus clinic is "right shoulder at ball in a secondary tilt" Now I miss Fat and miss left frequently. Should I have another "intent" or am I just gonna have to live with low spin and an early release. Help
Posted:
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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 MaineMembers  20333WRX Points: 900Posts: 20,333 Titanium Tees
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    If you are making good contact, you should be getting good spin, all things being equal.



    Unless that is where the "mid-cap hack" part comes in...?
    Posted:


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  • jut111jut111 Members  1759WRX Points: 340Posts: 1,759 Platinum Tees
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    what club are you hitting with those numbers?
    Posted:
  • lawrencedc1lawrencedc1 Members  718WRX Points: 71Handicap: 12.1Posts: 718 Golden Tee
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    6 iron. Smash in the high 140s still produces same Results
    Posted:
  • KuchhhhhhKuchhhhhh Members  2244WRX Points: 98Posts: 2,244 Platinum Tees
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    How long have you worked on the new intent?
    Posted:
    Taylormade M4 10.5 Atmos X stiff
    Taylormade M4 16.5 Proforce V2
    Titleist 716 T-MB 3 & 4 iron, 716 AP2 5-PW X100
    Titleist SM6 50, 54, 60 S300
    Taylormade Spider Red
  • lawrencedc1lawrencedc1 Members  718WRX Points: 71Handicap: 12.1Posts: 718 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jan 25, 2016 #6
    Kuchhhhhh wrote:
    How long have you worked on the new intent?




    His Columbus 2014 clinic. So roughly 18 months
    Posted:
  • SchneeSchnee SOTABM NortheastClubWRX  5571WRX Points: 712Posts: 5,571 ClubWRX
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    Kuchhhhhh wrote:
    How long have you worked on the new intent?




    His Columbus 2014 clinic. So roughly 18 months




    Could be time for a new intent. 18 Months is plenty of time for changes to set in. You probably just have to find a happy medium. I'd take some video for Monte.
    Posted:
    Taylormade M6 10.5* Graphite Design AD DI 
    Taylormade SIM Max 15° Project X Even Flow Riptide 70X
    Taylormade SIM Max Rescue 22° AD DI 85S
    Titleist 714 AP2 4-PW Tour Issue S400
    Vokey SM7 50.12F, 54.14F Stealth S200
    Vokey SM8 60.8M S400 
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  • GaryReadGaryRead Members  291WRX Points: 0Posts: 291
    Joined:  edited Jan 25, 2016 #8
    You can have a steep swing, Cast and still be shallow!! Be careful what you deduce from that fit and the fitters advice to be steeper.



    And if you a mid to high capper chances are... You are all the above, especially considering the mizuno thing indicated and early release.



    Need video to determine.
    Posted:
  • lawrencedc1lawrencedc1 Members  718WRX Points: 71Handicap: 12.1Posts: 718 Golden Tee
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    I'll see if I can drudge Montes video of my swing up. I will say if he thought I was steep then I would have got a comment regarding that, but who knows
    Posted:
  • starsail85starsail85 Members  4832WRX Points: 205Posts: 4,832 Titanium Tees
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    Regardless of what you could or should be doing swing wise , try the project a taylormade ball, perfect for your numbers
    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190G atmos 6s
    Mizuno MP18 2fh / PX 6.0
    Mizuno MP18 3-Pw/ PX 6.0
    Mizuno S18 5310+5812/PX 6.0
    Ping TR Anser 1966/ 34”

    Ball - pro v1x
    Grips - Crossline cord

    Lofts 18 , 21.5, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, 53, 58
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18849WRX Points: 1,460Posts: 18,849 Titanium Tees
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    This is what happens when someone with a launch monitor and tour averages ruins someone. Just because the tour average is 6000, doesn't mean 4800 is something that needs changing. It's also very possible if you changed your swing to get steeper you could spin it less.



    Most people would kill for down 1 and 20* of dymanic loft on a 6 iron that goes 180 with a 4 right path. A 6 iron has roughly 30-32 loft, so 20 dynamic loft is not flipped. Could make an augment that's not enough loft and hitting down more would decrease that number.



    I am not hacking on you Lawrence, I am hacking on the guy who told you this nonsense.
    Posted:
  • starsail85starsail85 Members  4832WRX Points: 205Posts: 4,832 Titanium Tees
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    That would equate to 11-13 degrees of shaft lean at impact , weakening lofts could help here ?
    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190G atmos 6s
    Mizuno MP18 2fh / PX 6.0
    Mizuno MP18 3-Pw/ PX 6.0
    Mizuno S18 5310+5812/PX 6.0
    Ping TR Anser 1966/ 34”

    Ball - pro v1x
    Grips - Crossline cord

    Lofts 18 , 21.5, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, 53, 58
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  • lawrencedc1lawrencedc1 Members  718WRX Points: 71Handicap: 12.1Posts: 718 Golden Tee
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    Always a breath of fresh air. Thank you Monte, you are appreciated
    Posted:
  • KuchhhhhhKuchhhhhh Members  2244WRX Points: 98Posts: 2,244 Platinum Tees
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    Always a breath of fresh air. Thank you Monte, you are appreciated




    If you did want more spin, starsail was right in that the project a balls do spin a lot. Hard not to let peoples suggestions get to you sometimes especially at fittings. I was barely taking divots for a month during the summer although I was playing my best I ever have, a friend of mine noticed it and said man you must be doing something wrong if you're not taking divots hardly at all. Ended up torching my AOA. And that's why I've made a deal with myself to only implement what my instructor says.
    Posted:
    Taylormade M4 10.5 Atmos X stiff
    Taylormade M4 16.5 Proforce V2
    Titleist 716 T-MB 3 & 4 iron, 716 AP2 5-PW X100
    Titleist SM6 50, 54, 60 S300
    Taylormade Spider Red
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members  17148WRX Points: 1,345Posts: 17,148 Titanium Tees
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    I'd still say -1.1 is way too shallow with a 6 iron and is why you tend to hit it fat. At that angle of attack the bounce will often hit before the leading edge moving low point behind the ball. Not to mention when you get to longer clubs low point won't be far enough forward resulting in dropkicks and fat shots



    To me it has nothing to do with the low spin number. It's about making solid contact with low point far enough in front of the ball.
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18849WRX Points: 1,460Posts: 18,849 Titanium Tees
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    ^That is the point.



    What do the numbers say in relation to your miss, not against a chart of arbitrary correctness.
    Posted:
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members  17148WRX Points: 1,345Posts: 17,148 Titanium Tees
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    ^That is the point.



    What do the numbers say in relation to your miss, not against a chart of arbitrary correctness.




    But you said most would kill for 1 down on a 6 iron. I'm saying that if most got to -1 on a 6 iron they'd hit as many fat shots and solid ones and would be far too shallow.



    Your post makes it seem like his aoa is fine and there is no issue.
    Posted:
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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18849WRX Points: 1,460Posts: 18,849 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 25, 2016 #18
    iteachgolf wrote:



    ^That is the point.



    What do the numbers say in relation to your miss, not against a chart of arbitrary correctness.




    But you said most would kill for 1 down on a 6 iron. I'm saying that if most got to -1 on a 6 iron they'd hit as many fat shots and solid ones and would be far too shallow.



    Your post makes it seem like his aoa is fine and there is no issue.




    I was making a point it wasn't about AoA and spin. If you can deliver down 1 and 20* and a 6 iron and hit it, spin of 4800 isn't a problem.



    I was refuting getting steeper for spin just because was a joke.



    Getting his right shoulder out more and less down will move the swing bottom forward. He shouldn't be trying to swing down more to get more spin.
    Posted:
  • lawrencedc1lawrencedc1 Members  718WRX Points: 71Handicap: 12.1Posts: 718 Golden Tee
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    Is there something I should be doing extra to stop the fat shots, or continue to perfect the right shoulder out?
    Posted:
  • GaryReadGaryRead Members  291WRX Points: 0Posts: 291
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    Get a decent video up!!!!!
    Posted:
  • PJ1120PJ1120 Members  761WRX Points: 109Posts: 761 Golden Tee
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    iteachgolf wrote:



    ^That is the point.



    What do the numbers say in relation to your miss, not against a chart of arbitrary correctness.




    But you said most would kill for 1 down on a 6 iron. I'm saying that if most got to -1 on a 6 iron they'd hit as many fat shots and solid ones and would be far too shallow.



    Your post makes it seem like his aoa is fine and there is no issue.




    I was making a point it wasn't about AoA and spin. If you can deliver down 1 and 20* and a 6 iron and hit it, spin of 4800 isn't a problem.



    I was refuting getting steeper for spin just because was a joke.



    Getting his right shoulder out more and less down will move the swing bottom forward. He shouldn't be trying to swing down more to get more spin.




    I'm a little confused. Dropping right shoulder down in DS is a shallowing move right? So more out and less down would increase AoA (steepen) wouldn't it. I know if I swing too shallow I it fat shots.
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18849WRX Points: 1,460Posts: 18,849 Titanium Tees
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    PJ1120 wrote:


    iteachgolf wrote:



    ^That is the point.



    What do the numbers say in relation to your miss, not against a chart of arbitrary correctness.




    But you said most would kill for 1 down on a 6 iron. I'm saying that if most got to -1 on a 6 iron they'd hit as many fat shots and solid ones and would be far too shallow.



    Your post makes it seem like his aoa is fine and there is no issue.




    I was making a point it wasn't about AoA and spin. If you can deliver down 1 and 20* and a 6 iron and hit it, spin of 4800 isn't a problem.



    I was refuting getting steeper for spin just because was a joke.



    Getting his right shoulder out more and less down will move the swing bottom forward. He shouldn't be trying to swing down more to get more spin.




    I'm a little confused. Dropping right shoulder down in DS is a shallowing move right? So more out and less down would increase AoA (steepen) wouldn't it. I know if I swing too shallow I it fat shots.




    Correct. My original point was not to chase numbers...and hitting down more is a result, not something you chase.
    Posted:
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members  17148WRX Points: 1,345Posts: 17,148 Titanium Tees
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    iteachgolf wrote:



    ^That is the point.



    What do the numbers say in relation to your miss, not against a chart of arbitrary correctness.




    But you said most would kill for 1 down on a 6 iron. I'm saying that if most got to -1 on a 6 iron they'd hit as many fat shots and solid ones and would be far too shallow.



    Your post makes it seem like his aoa is fine and there is no issue.




    I was making a point it wasn't about AoA and spin. If you can deliver down 1 and 20* and a 6 iron and hit it, spin of 4800 isn't a problem.



    I was refuting getting steeper for spin just because was a joke.



    Getting his right shoulder out more and less down will move the swing bottom forward. He shouldn't be trying to swing down more to get more spin.




    Except that moving the should more out will get him hitting more down on it and being steeper. So by trying to get his shoulder out he is trying to hit more down on it. Your post is confusing to me.



    Getting steeper wasn't just because, he is too shallow. He needs to get steeper. It will likely also help him spin it more which would almost certainly help his longer clubs as I'm guessing he has issues keeping long irons in the air and hit them at all due to both spin and AOA.
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18849WRX Points: 1,460Posts: 18,849 Titanium Tees
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    Is there something I should be doing extra to stop the fat shots, or continue to perfect the right shoulder out?




    Would have to see it. Right shoulder out more moves swing bottom forward, but there could be another issue (s).
    Posted:
  • starsail85starsail85 Members  4832WRX Points: 205Posts: 4,832 Titanium Tees
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    Someone explain to me how getting steeper increases spin? I was under the impression that when attack angle goes down so does dynamic loft?
    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190G atmos 6s
    Mizuno MP18 2fh / PX 6.0
    Mizuno MP18 3-Pw/ PX 6.0
    Mizuno S18 5310+5812/PX 6.0
    Ping TR Anser 1966/ 34”

    Ball - pro v1x
    Grips - Crossline cord

    Lofts 18 , 21.5, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, 53, 58
  • CapeCape Members  744WRX Points: 0Posts: 744
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    Can someone provide what the ideal range is for a 6i AoA and spin numbers based on 95MPH swingspeed? just so I have a reference point. I never knew coming in too shallow can result in fat shots...
    Posted:
  • starsail85starsail85 Members  4832WRX Points: 205Posts: 4,832 Titanium Tees
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    Cape wrote:


    Can someone provide what the ideal range is for a 6i AoA and spin numbers based on 95MPH swingspeed? just so I have a reference point. I never knew coming in too shallow can result in fat shots...




    I know that mine is 87mph and they were fitting me to 6000 spin 18 degree launch angle



    I'm guessing yours wouldn't be that different to that .
    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190G atmos 6s
    Mizuno MP18 2fh / PX 6.0
    Mizuno MP18 3-Pw/ PX 6.0
    Mizuno S18 5310+5812/PX 6.0
    Ping TR Anser 1966/ 34”

    Ball - pro v1x
    Grips - Crossline cord

    Lofts 18 , 21.5, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, 53, 58
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  • GaryReadGaryRead Members  291WRX Points: 0Posts: 291
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    starsail85 wrote:
    Someone explain to me how getting steeper increases spin? I was under the impression that when attack angle goes down so does dynamic loft?




    If attack angle steepens more than the dynamic loft lowers then the face and path are further away from one another so it would in that case increase spin.



    Posted:
  • starsail85starsail85 Members  4832WRX Points: 205Posts: 4,832 Titanium Tees
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    GaryRead wrote:

    starsail85 wrote:
    Someone explain to me how getting steeper increases spin? I was under the impression that when attack angle goes down so does dynamic loft?




    If attack angle steepens more than the dynamic loft lowers then the face and path are further away from one another so it would in that case increase spin.




    Yes that makes sense



    I was under the impression that that attack and dynamic loft tend to lower by the same amount when you steepen the attack ?
    Posted:
    Mizuno ST190G atmos 6s
    Mizuno MP18 2fh / PX 6.0
    Mizuno MP18 3-Pw/ PX 6.0
    Mizuno S18 5310+5812/PX 6.0
    Ping TR Anser 1966/ 34”

    Ball - pro v1x
    Grips - Crossline cord

    Lofts 18 , 21.5, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, 53, 58
  • GaryReadGaryRead Members  291WRX Points: 0Posts: 291
    Joined:  #30
    Perhaps in some cases but in others steep could be caused or is accompanied by an open face. An open face is more lofted relatively speaking so before you know it you've got a recipe for a spinny go no where where slice!



    Posted:
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  • lawrencedc1lawrencedc1 Members  718WRX Points: 71Handicap: 12.1Posts: 718 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jan 25, 2016 #31
    iteachgolf wrote:


    I'd still say -1.1 is way too shallow with a 6 iron and is why you tend to hit it fat. At that angle of attack the bounce will often hit before the leading edge moving low point behind the ball. Not to mention when you get to longer clubs low point won't be far enough forward resulting in dropkicks and fat shots



    To me it has nothing to do with the low spin number. It's about making solid contact with low point far enough in front of the ball.




    http://www.golfwrx.c...your-low-point/



    Maybe it's as simple as a "bump"? It would be nice to not have two intents or swing thoughts though, as things can spin out of control quick, no pun intended
    Posted:
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