Help with upper body separation in backswing please

So my fault is allowing both upper and lower body to swing together in the backswing with not enough upper body separation. Result is little or no torque and hitting behind the ball all too often (as a loss of balance is another result). In addition I end up overtorquing my left knee and causing problems there (re: surgery). When I can get some separation, shorten my backswing, and feek as though my legs are locked more to the ground I tend to hit it much better. The problem is I alway revert back to overswinging as it never feels as though I am swinging far enough. In the process of trying the beach ball between the knees drill and workouts that will help to define the upper body separation, but am looking for any advise on creating a better swing that will result in improved contract on irons. Separately was thinking of trying the DST but think I might need to improve my swing first? Funny thing is as bad as my swing can be looks wise, I hit the ball very consistently and straight, just not that long with my irons due to the lack of torque. HELP.

I saw something recently while looking for tips on shortening my backswing that seemed to have helped me somewhat. In effect they were similar to Monte's videos on "no turn, cast" and "full turn". Basically, they said that arm overrun was many times due to too much hip and shoulder turn too early in the back swing, so you keep moving your arms until you feel wound up, which ends up being too far back. The "fix" is basically just lifting your arms up and back and setting your wrists. Not really trying to restrict hip turn, but just letting your arms take your shoulder and hips along for the ride. Video yourself doing it and you'll be amazed at how much your shoulders and hips turn when you feel like they didn't move at all.

As a former lifetime desk jockey, I always played golf with the problem you mentioned - EE, shanks, etc. The main issue is the timely activation of the core muscle group. Jim Waldron's materials provided the most information for me.

My current concept is in golf swing, like multistage rockets, there are three stages of engines - the lower body muscle groups - leg muscles and glute, the mid body muscle group - the core, and the shoulder muscle group.

Each muscle group acts against a foundation or a base to propel a load. The base of the lower body muscle group is the ground and the load is the pelvis and everything on top of it. The base of the core muscle group is the pelvis and the load is the torso and every thing attached to it, etc. Our friend Reasonability once posted a question here about the role of the shoulder muscles in a golf swing and received no good responses. So, this is still murky to me but I think Monte's no-turn-cast drill is to focus on this muscle group.

My key thought to the lower/upper body separation is in backswing, navel moves before genital, and in downswing, genital moves before navel (please pardon my language, but this is my inner thought). Others may chime in for better key thoughts.

One big question or observation is that I now tend to feel my legs and knees are locked more securely in place in order to separate the upper body better. I actually have to almost tense up my legs to keep from overturning the lower body in the back swing. An odd feeling that I'm not sure the correct one. I'm trying to work a little more with mirror swings and it's very reveling how hard it is to properly separate the upper body in the backswing and not the over swing either (it's tough getting old huh?). I've added some fitness drills to help as well and am pushing hard to fix this swing fault before the new season.

Any thoughts to add on technique or drrills?

This is a guess without a video, but it's likely your overswing is more of an arm width and/or faulty pivot problem than an upper/lower separation problem. If you focus on separation, you will likely end up restricting your hips, which is not ideal for distance, consistency or your back. Consciously forcing yourself to "create torque" is highly overrated and something that happens naturally with a good pivot and allowing your body to turn freely.

One big question or observation is that I now tend to feel my legs and knees are locked more securely in place in order to separate the upper body better. I actually have to almost tense up my legs to keep from overturning the lower body in the back swing. An odd feeling that I'm not sure the correct one. I'm trying to work a little more with mirror swings and it's very reveling how hard it is to properly separate the upper body in the backswing and not the over swing either (it's tough getting old huh?). I've added some fitness drills to help as well and am pushing hard to fix this swing fault before the new season.

 

Any thoughts to add on technique or drrills?

Post a video!

This is a guess without a video, but it's likely your overswing is more of an arm width and/or faulty pivot problem than an upper/lower separation problem. If you focus on separation, you will likely end up restricting your hips, which is not ideal for distance, consistency or your back. Consciously forcing yourself to "create torque" is highly overrated and something that happens naturally with a good pivot and allowing your body to turn freely.

Thanks for the advise!! I agree that holding my hips in place will create even more problems, but at the same time I need to restrict having too much lower body movement (causing knee collapse, etc.). When swinging my worst both hips and shoulders turn about the same or swing without any torque - that's when I get lazy in my swings. My goal now is to allow more rotation with my shoulders/ upper body while restricting somewhat my lower body. It's a difficult thing when you thought you were swinging correctly but realize that at times you are actually swinging with no torque and end up overswinging too. Getting a better rotation of my upper body is really the goal I guess.

It's likely setup and the angle of your rotation.

One big question or observation is that I now tend to feel my legs and knees are locked more securely in place in order to separate the upper body better. I actually have to almost tense up my legs to keep from overturning the lower body in the back swing. An odd feeling that I'm not sure the correct one. I'm trying to work a little more with mirror swings and it's very reveling how hard it is to properly separate the upper body in the backswing and not the over swing either (it's tough getting old huh?). I've added some fitness drills to help as well and am pushing hard to fix this swing fault before the new season.

 

Any thoughts to add on technique or drrills?

Also figured out that the minor knee surgeries I've had have really weakened my legs and that's a big cause of the lower body rotating too much - I just haven't been able to maintain a stable base to turn over. Figuring it out though I can now work to strengthen my legs and also work on some drills to make my swing better too. Falling into bad habits really happens quickly if you don't watch out I guess. Now if I can fix my faults I hope to gain some distance with my irons!!

I believe that too much emphasis is placed on separation of upper and lower body for the average everyday amateur. For older golfers or those of us who can't hit hundreds of balls a week on the range, attempting to separate top from bottom leaves to considerable inconsistency and injuries. Simply learning to connect your club with your core on the way back and then down and through cures all of these issues. Thoughts of leading with your hips and creating lag

I believe that too much emphasis is placed on separation of upper and lower body for the average everyday amateur. For older golfers or those of us who can't hit hundreds of balls a week on the range, attempting to separate top from bottom leaves to considerable inconsistency and injuries. Simply learning to connect your club with your core on the way back and then down and through cures all of these issues. Thoughts of leading with your hips and creating lag like the pros causes more problems and injuries than simply hitting the golf ball with your core.