My 1-star review of Whistling Straits

Played Whistling Straits over the weekend. It was my second time there and first time since 2010 when I played it in awful conditions (over 100 degrees).

The facilities are top notch, no complaints there.

Problem started with the caddie. Never had a bad caddie in my life, but got a bad draw cause the guy we got was pretty bad. Some bad reads on putts, never gave enough info when giving distances, was obviously burned out from the job, was not engaged at all, think he smiled once all day. Got to the point where we wouldn't even ask him for reads anymore. He totally screwed me on #9. Hit my drive to the right side of the fairway, was sligthly blocked by the lone tree on the property. Caddie tells me its 175 to the pin, I tell him I could hit a hybrid that might be a few yards long (pin was towards the front) or I can hit a fade 5 iron that usually runs out to 170-175, He advised that I go with the latter. Hit what I thought was a perfect 5 iron to the left, it starts fading towards the pin and hits about 15 yards short and starts running. Caddie starts talking to the ball to avoid the bunker. Uhm, what bunker? Caddie never mentioned any bunker before I shot. Sure enough my perfect shot rolls right into the bunker. Get up the bunker and there is no sand in it, felt like I was at Harborside. Tried a normal bunker shot and bladed it into the 4 foot high face. Caddie tells me to close the face and try and chunk it out. Of course that doesn't work, I was stupid to even try it. Took an unplayable and carded a quad.

Earlier in the round the same thing happened where I pulled a wedge into a greenside bunker and there was no sand in it. Ended up with a quad on that one too. Had 2 birdies as well on the front so its not like I was playing bad. Ended up with a 47 on the front when I felt like I played well enough to be around 40 or 41. My back quit on me on the back nine and shot another 47 for a 94. My whole goal out there was to break 90 and I feel like I got screwed out of that by crappy course conditions at a $500 course.

The Caddie sucked but that's not why I give this course 1 star. Not having sand in greenside bunkers that have faces 4 feet and higher is inexcusable. And its not like they were washed out, there was no rain and there were plenty of other bunkers that had sand.

Kohler took money from me for the last time. I'll never go back to the place. Plenty of other options in Wisconsin for top end luxury golf where they actually care about the product.

wait a minute here.

you can't get mad at the caddie for not telling you about the bunker for two reasons, you brought up two shots that landed you on the green or just shy of it, not rolling into the bunker....and he couldn't possibly know it'd kick that hard. again, not his fault, just rub of the green.

it's not his fault you cant' get out of a bunker -- so again, don't blame him. he's not butch harmon or dave pelz giving you primo on-course instruction -- relax man.

the course (as you know) has as many sand bunkers as it has waste areas/dirt bunkers...that's an attribute to the course and not an indicator of quality of course; despite you thinking it is awful (many will attest to how nice it is).

the fact your back gave out sucks, but c'mon man, seems to me like you're putting WAAAAAAY too much on both the kid and the course for you havin a tough day. it happens.

you didn't get 'screwed out' b/c of conditions -- you got screwed b/c you got in your own head by assuming the caddie would have the course knowledge of someone named LaCava or Williams, AND b/c your back gave out on you --- you can't expect the bunkers to look like Augusta...that's not why whistling is...what it is.

*not looking to pick a fight, just sayin take a deep breath, things happen.

This thread has to be a joke.

I guess we'll have to disagree.

Where I come from, you pay $500 for golf there should be sand in the greenside bunkers. I understand the difference between waste areas and bunkers, the ones by the green were bunkers where you weren't allowed to ground your club.

And sorry, but I do blame the caddie for the shot on #9. I told him exactly what the shot would do, he should've told me about the bunker that I didn't see. Ball didn't take any odd bounce, it stayed in the fairway and rolled into the bunker which was on the left side of the fairway.

And as far as I know, the shot he was telling me to try was impossible unless I wanted to break my wrist or club. Trying to chop a ball off of hard pan over a 4 foot high face that's 2-3 feet away, if that shot is possible its definitely above my pay grade.

I guess we'll have to disagree.

 

Where I come from, you pay $500 for golf there should be sand in the greenside bunkers. I understand the difference between waste areas and bunkers, the ones by the green were bunkers where you weren't allowed to ground your club.

 

And sorry, but I do blame the caddie for the shot on #9. I told him exactly what the shot would do, he should've told me about the bunker that I didn't see. Ball didn't take any odd bounce, it stayed in the fairway and rolled into the bunker which was on the left side of the fairway.

 

And as far as I know, the shot he was telling me to try was impossible unless I wanted to break my wrist or club. Trying to chop a ball off of hard pan over a 4 foot high face that's 2-3 feet away, if that shot is possible its definitely above my pay grade.

...didn't you say you've played there before?

fool me once...shame on you...fool me twice...shame on...who?

*after re-reading your issue on 9...seems to me like if you were playing the fade, the 'miss' would be left of the pin. is it just possible that, regardless of the bunker to the right --- you hit it too far right of your line? clearly the bunker wasn't infront of the green, but i'm guessing right of the green?

Greenside bunkers should have sand. You expect hard pan on a $30 muni. You expect hard pan in a waste area. If the bunker has a rake, it should have sand.

I don't think the sand has to be pristine looking, but one should be able to hit a normal bunker shot out of it without bottoming out.

A course that prides itself on the number of bunkers should maintain said bunkers.

Greenside bunkers should have sand. You expect hard pan on a $30 muni. You expect hard pan in a waste area. If the bunker has a rake, it should have sand.

 

I don't think the sand has to be pristine looking, but one should be able to hit a normal bunker shot out of it without bottoming out.

 

A course that prides itself on the number of bunkers should maintain said bunkers.

clearly you didn't see the 'bunker' that DJ hit out of...did you?

Pics of the bunkers?

Also odd you're taking the advice of a caddie for how you should play a bunker shot, when you have such a degree of disdain for the guy and after you'd inexplicably taken his advise on the approach shot.

If you have a goal of a score to shoot when you are playing a 'destination course' you've started off with the wrong mindset.

Seems that 1-star review is a pretty simple self-fulfilling prophesy.

Greenside bunkers should have sand. You expect hard pan on a $30 muni. You expect hard pan in a waste area. If the bunker has a rake, it should have sand.

 

I don't think the sand has to be pristine looking, but one should be able to hit a normal bunker shot out of it without bottoming out.

 

A course that prides itself on the number of bunkers should maintain said bunkers.

 

clearly you didn't see the 'bunker' that DJ hit out of...did you?

DJ didn't hit out of bunker, he was in a waste area. According to our caddie, you can ground your club in any of the waste areas, but the greenside bunkers (with rakes) were treated as a normal sand bunker where you can't ground your club.

Pics of the bunkers?

Also odd you're taking the advice of a caddie for how you should play a bunker shot, when you have such a degree of disdain for the guy and after you'd inexplicably taken his advise on the approach shot.

If you have a goal of a score to shoot when you are playing a 'destination course' you've started off with the wrong mindset.

Seems that 1-star review is a pretty simple self-fulfilling prophesy.

I agree that it was stupid to take the caddies advise and try and shot I wasn't comfortable with. At the time I was in a bit of shock about the previous bunker shot and the condition of the bunker.

Greenside bunkers should have sand. You expect hard pan on a $30 muni. You expect hard pan in a waste area. If the bunker has a rake, it should have sand.

 

I don't think the sand has to be pristine looking, but one should be able to hit a normal bunker shot out of it without bottoming out.

 

A course that prides itself on the number of bunkers should maintain said bunkers.

 

clearly you didn't see the 'bunker' that DJ hit out of...did you?

 

 

DJ didn't hit out of bunker, he was in a waste area. According to our caddie, you can ground your club in any of the waste areas, but the greenside bunkers (with rakes) were treated as a normal sand bunker where you can't ground your club.

then the PGA has some 'splainin to do...

hate to say it but, if the bunkers were consistent...then what you get is what you get.

it's like someone saying they are pissed that they played in scotland and had 'too much wind' for scotland. it's a by-product of the course development -- the course wasn't meant to have soft bunkers mostly b/c of the fact that there were so many. the reason why it's easy to hit out of their fairway bunkers is why it's harder to hit out of the greenside ones -- but they're consistent.

Pics of the bunkers?

Also odd you're taking the advice of a caddie for how you should play a bunker shot, when you have such a degree of disdain for the guy and after you'd inexplicably taken his advise on the approach shot.

If you have a goal of a score to shoot when you are playing a 'destination course' you've started off with the wrong mindset.

Seems that 1-star review is a pretty simple self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

I agree that it was stupid to take the caddies advise and try and shot I wasn't comfortable with. At the time I was in a bit of shock about the previous bunker shot and the condition of the bunker.

you were 9 holes into your round man...you can't be 'shocked' about the condition of the bunker...

I guess we'll have to disagree.

 

Where I come from, you pay $500 for golf there should be sand in the greenside bunkers. I understand the difference between waste areas and bunkers, the ones by the green were bunkers where you weren't allowed to ground your club.

 

And sorry, but I do blame the caddie for the shot on #9. I told him exactly what the shot would do, he should've told me about the bunker that I didn't see. Ball didn't take any odd bounce, it stayed in the fairway and rolled into the bunker which was on the left side of the fairway.

 

And as far as I know, the shot he was telling me to try was impossible unless I wanted to break my wrist or club. Trying to chop a ball off of hard pan over a 4 foot high face that's 2-3 feet away, if that shot is possible its definitely above my pay grade.

 

...didn't you say you've played there before?

 

fool me once...shame on you...fool me twice...shame on...who?

 

*after re-reading your issue on 9...seems to me like if you were playing the fade, the 'miss' would be left of the pin. is it just possible that, regardless of the bunker to the right --- you hit it too far right of your line? clearly the bunker wasn't infront of the green, but i'm guessing right of the green?

Bunker was on the left side of the fairway and green, not on the right.

Like I said though, the 1 star review is not because of the caddie. If everything else was perfect I would've knocked off a star for the bad caddie and still given the course 3 stars out of 4. The poor conditon of the greenside bunkers is why I gave the course 1 star which I think is more than deserving for a $500 course.

at $500 any less than PERFECT conditions is unacceptable.

Greenside bunkers should have sand. You expect hard pan on a $30 muni. You expect hard pan in a waste area. If the bunker has a rake, it should have sand.

 

I don't think the sand has to be pristine looking, but one should be able to hit a normal bunker shot out of it without bottoming out.

 

A course that prides itself on the number of bunkers should maintain said bunkers.

 

clearly you didn't see the 'bunker' that DJ hit out of...did you?

 

DJ didn't hit out of bunker, he was in a waste area. According to our caddie, you can ground your club in any of the waste areas, but the greenside bunkers (with rakes) were treated as a normal sand bunker where you can't ground your club.

Technically DJ hit out of a "bunker", as a rule was put in place for the tournament that declared all sandy areas to be "bunkers". As you note, these areas are waste areas when the PGA is not in town.

Of course, I've never attended a tournament where spectators were allowed to walk in the "bunkers". I'd love to attend the Masters and plop my behind in a beach chair in Ray's Creek in front of the 12th green.

I guess we'll have to disagree.

 

Where I come from, you pay $500 for golf there should be sand in the greenside bunkers. I understand the difference between waste areas and bunkers, the ones by the green were bunkers where you weren't allowed to ground your club.

 

And sorry, but I do blame the caddie for the shot on #9. I told him exactly what the shot would do, he should've told me about the bunker that I didn't see. Ball didn't take any odd bounce, it stayed in the fairway and rolled into the bunker which was on the left side of the fairway.

 

And as far as I know, the shot he was telling me to try was impossible unless I wanted to break my wrist or club. Trying to chop a ball off of hard pan over a 4 foot high face that's 2-3 feet away, if that shot is possible its definitely above my pay grade.

 

...didn't you say you've played there before?

 

fool me once...shame on you...fool me twice...shame on...who?

 

*after re-reading your issue on 9...seems to me like if you were playing the fade, the 'miss' would be left of the pin. is it just possible that, regardless of the bunker to the right --- you hit it too far right of your line? clearly the bunker wasn't infront of the green, but i'm guessing right of the green?

 

Bunker was on the left side of the fairway and green, not on the right.

 

Like I said though, the 1 star review is not because of the caddie. If everything else was perfect I would've knocked off a star for the bad caddie and still given the course 3 stars out of 4. The poor conditon of the greenside bunkers is why I gave the course 1 star which I think is more than deserving for a $500 course.

 

at $500 any less than PERFECT conditions is unacceptable.

ok...so you missed the green to the left. again, not his fault. poor shot, chalk it up and move on.

if you're going to be that...judgemental about the course conditions prior to playing, perhaps you should've asked to use the practice facilities first -- ie a practice bunker...then ask the pro inside if those are representative of what you'd see on course.

as you said already: you played there before.

Pics of the bunkers?

Also odd you're taking the advice of a caddie for how you should play a bunker shot, when you have such a degree of disdain for the guy and after you'd inexplicably taken his advise on the approach shot.

If you have a goal of a score to shoot when you are playing a 'destination course' you've started off with the wrong mindset.

Seems that 1-star review is a pretty simple self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

I agree that it was stupid to take the caddies advise and try and shot I wasn't comfortable with. At the time I was in a bit of shock about the previous bunker shot and the condition of the bunker.

Fair enough :)

I've seen some sh1te caddies (1 playing partners had at Erin Hills and another time the ones we had in our foursome unfortunately at Pebble) over the years, but they still couldn't overpower the experience of the golf course, maybe dim it somewhat.

I have a lot of sympathy for the back, as someone who suffers myself; however, I think the Straits is an outstanding track and as said above me here, the shape of the bunkers on a seaside/lakeside course is soooooo very weather dependent. I can think of some courses I've played in the UK that are as highly regarded as they come and the sand available in some of their bunkers wouldn't build you a three-pale sand castle. I think a lot of North Americans forget bunkers are meant to be hazards.

 

 

 

 

then the PGA has some 'splainin to do...

 

hate to say it but, if the bunkers were consistent...then what you get is what you get.

 

it's like someone saying they are pissed that they played in scotland and had 'too much wind' for scotland. it's a by-product of the course development -- the course wasn't meant to have soft bunkers mostly b/c of the fact that there were so many. the reason why it's easy to hit out of their fairway bunkers is why it's harder to hit out of the greenside ones -- but they're consistent.

 

 

 

you were 9 holes into your round man...you can't be 'shocked' about the condition of the bunker...

PGA played different course/local rules than what they play out there for tourists. We were told on first tee that we can ground our clubs in any waste areas/bunkers that didn't have a rake, i.e. ALL the fairway bunkers like the one DJ was in.

Also, like I already said, the bunkers were NOT consistent. Some had plenty of sand, some had none.

Sorry, but even after 9 holes I was still shocked that the $500 course I was on had crappier bunkers than the muni's I play back home. And I was only in 2 of them at that point so its not like I was out scouting every other bunker out there. Both times I was in a greenside bunker I was hitting off hard pan trying to clear a high face.

Greenside bunkers should have sand. You expect hard pan on a $30 muni. You expect hard pan in a waste area. If the bunker has a rake, it should have sand.

 

I don't think the sand has to be pristine looking, but one should be able to hit a normal bunker shot out of it without bottoming out.

 

A course that prides itself on the number of bunkers should maintain said bunkers.

 

clearly you didn't see the 'bunker' that DJ hit out of...did you?

 

DJ didn't hit out of bunker, he was in a waste area. According to our caddie, you can ground your club in any of the waste areas, but the greenside bunkers (with rakes) were treated as a normal sand bunker where you can't ground your club.

 

Technically DJ hit out of a "bunker", as a rule was put in place for the tournament that declared all sandy areas to be "bunkers". As you note, these areas are waste areas when the PGA is not in town.

 

Of course, I've never attended a tournament where spectators were allowed to walk in the "bunkers". I'd love to attend the Masters and plop my behind in a beach chair in Ray's Creek in front of the 12th green.

...so technically he did. as the location in question was one of the billion or so bunkers on course. they were told prior to the tournament to treat ALL areas as bunkers to this effect. you can't have a tournament at Whistling Straits and avoid bunkers like you can at Augusta so...yea, sorry, you'll have to keep your chair in the respective places at Augusta.

then the PGA has some 'splainin to do...

 

hate to say it but, if the bunkers were consistent...then what you get is what you get.

 

it's like someone saying they are pissed that they played in scotland and had 'too much wind' for scotland. it's a by-product of the course development -- the course wasn't meant to have soft bunkers mostly b/c of the fact that there were so many. the reason why it's easy to hit out of their fairway bunkers is why it's harder to hit out of the greenside ones -- but they're consistent.

 

 

 

you were 9 holes into your round man...you can't be 'shocked' about the condition of the bunker...

 

 

PGA played different course/local rules than what they play out there for tourists. We were told on first tee that we can ground our clubs in any waste areas/bunkers that didn't have a rake, i.e. ALL the fairway bunkers like the one DJ was in.

 

Also, like I already said, the bunkers were NOT consistent. Some had plenty of sand, some had none.

 

Sorry, but even after 9 holes I was still shocked that the $500 course I was on had crappier bunkers than the muni's I play back home. And I was only in 2 of them at that point so its not like I was out scouting every other bunker out there. Both times I was in a greenside bunker I was hitting off hard pan trying to clear a high face.

well, if you were so miffed about it, you should've headed in and asked for either your money back, or compenation for holes not played.

I guess we'll have to disagree.

 

Where I come from, you pay $500 for golf there should be sand in the greenside bunkers. I understand the difference between waste areas and bunkers, the ones by the green were bunkers where you weren't allowed to ground your club.

 

And sorry, but I do blame the caddie for the shot on #9. I told him exactly what the shot would do, he should've told me about the bunker that I didn't see. Ball didn't take any odd bounce, it stayed in the fairway and rolled into the bunker which was on the left side of the fairway.

 

And as far as I know, the shot he was telling me to try was impossible unless I wanted to break my wrist or club. Trying to chop a ball off of hard pan over a 4 foot high face that's 2-3 feet away, if that shot is possible its definitely above my pay grade.

 

...didn't you say you've played there before?

 

fool me once...shame on you...fool me twice...shame on...who?

 

*after re-reading your issue on 9...seems to me like if you were playing the fade, the 'miss' would be left of the pin. is it just possible that, regardless of the bunker to the right --- you hit it too far right of your line? clearly the bunker wasn't infront of the green, but i'm guessing right of the green?

 

Bunker was on the left side of the fairway and green, not on the right.

 

Like I said though, the 1 star review is not because of the caddie. If everything else was perfect I would've knocked off a star for the bad caddie and still given the course 3 stars out of 4. The poor conditon of the greenside bunkers is why I gave the course 1 star which I think is more than deserving for a $500 course.

 

at $500 any less than PERFECT conditions is unacceptable.

 

ok...so you missed the green to the left. again, not his fault. poor shot, chalk it up and move on.

 

if you're going to be that...judgemental about the course conditions prior to playing, perhaps you should've asked to use the practice facilities first -- ie a practice bunker...then ask the pro inside if those are representative of what you'd see on course.

 

as you said already: you played there before.

Maybe I'm not being clear or maybe you are having a hard time understanding, but once again I did not miss the green to the left, I hit a great shot that rolled into a bunker that was in the fairway on the left side. If you look at a picture of the hole you can see the bunker I'm talking about.

Like I said, I played there 6-7 years ago and have no memory of the conditions of the bunkers.

Back to Zer0's review, I think it's more than fair to give a high-end course a 1 star rating for p*ss poor conditions. I played a $22 muni last Saturday, and I wasn't shocked that the bunkers were trash. You pay > $100, and you expect sand in the bunkers. You pay $500 for a top 100 course, and you expect darn near ideal conditions.

If you're every playing Cascata ask for Moses. Dude saved me 5-10 shots easy. Has some great stories about some pretty big names too (DJ, Tiger, etc).

#sorryforthreadjack

 

 

well, if you were so miffed about it, you should've headed in and asked for either your money back, or compenation for holes not played.

I'm not going to ask for my money back or ask for some freebie because of this issue, but yes, I was upset about it and will instead exercise my right to never go there again.

As for the caddie, I'm not going to complain about him because that's his livelihood and even though he was bad, its not like he was an a****** or anything like that. Just a bad caddie.

Back to Zer0's review, I think it's more than fair to give a high-end course a 1 star rating for p*ss poor conditions. I played a $22 muni last Saturday, and I wasn't shocked that the bunkers were trash. You pay > $100, and you expect sand in the bunkers. You pay $500 for a top 100 course, and you expect darn near ideal conditions.

so...you expect ideal conditions in the context of what exactly? the atmosphere/intent of the course?

i mean, i don't see people throwin up 1 star reviews for pinehurst b/c the fairways were burnt on the edges...

what, ya gonna go after pebble if there's a marine layer that comes in?

Marine layer is outside the control of the course. Having no sand in greenside bunkers is very much the choice of the course.

Pinehurst has made it very well known that they only have sprinklers in the middle of the fairways, so dry conditions should be expected near the natural areas.

I've wanted to play The Stadium Course at TPC Sawgrass, but I've read too many reviews that say that the conditions are garbage when the PGA isn't in town. No way to run a high end facility.

Back to Zer0's review, I think it's more than fair to give a high-end course a 1 star rating for p*ss poor conditions. I played a $22 muni last Saturday, and I wasn't shocked that the bunkers were trash. You pay > $100, and you expect sand in the bunkers. You pay $500 for a top 100 course, and you expect darn near ideal conditions.

 

so...you expect ideal conditions in the context of what exactly? the atmosphere/intent of the course?

 

i mean, i don't see people throwin up 1 star reviews for pinehurst b/c the fairways were burnt on the edges...

 

what, ya gonna go after pebble if there's a marine layer that comes in?

I expect perfect conditions in the sense that the course is 100% playable and maintained to keep it that way. The examples you just gave are not analogous to the greenside bunkers having hard pan.

Several years ago we had a bad service experience at the Straits. The course was perfect but how we were treated was incredibly poor. We were the second group off on a Friday morning at 7:10AM following a twosome. Got to the first tee at 7:05 and the starter literally yelled at us that we were late. We didn't know that we were supposed to be there 10 minutes before the tee time.

On the front, we were harassed by a ranger for being a hole behind the group in front of us. Keep in mind again that it was a 2 some.

At the turn, the ranger told us that we were going to be tossed from the course for slow play because we were now a hole and a half behind. There was no reasoning with him about the group behind us or the twosome in front of us. He wanted nothing to hear of the logic. On the 12th hole, we literally caught up to the twosome in front of us and were waiting to hit our shots.

After the round, I went and asked for the GM because I was extremely miffed. I asked him what was the normal pace of play and he said, "We'd like to see 4:20 but it's usually closer to 4:40." I asked what he would think of a foursome that played in 3:45. He said that would be amazing.

So I told him the story beginning with the starter, the ranger on the front, the ranger at the turn and how rushed our round was. He refunded us for the full round, gave us a complimentary round on the Irish Course and they picked up a night of lodging at the Inn on Woodlake.

Marine layer is outside the control of the course. Having no sand in greenside bunkers is very much the choice of the course.

i mean, is whistling straits KNOWN for perfect bunkers? sh*t, most ppl haven't been able to discern what is and isnt...

Back to Zer0's review, I think it's more than fair to give a high-end course a 1 star rating for p*ss poor conditions. I played a $22 muni last Saturday, and I wasn't shocked that the bunkers were trash. You pay > $100, and you expect sand in the bunkers. You pay $500 for a top 100 course, and you expect darn near ideal conditions.

 

so...you expect ideal conditions in the context of what exactly? the atmosphere/intent of the course?

 

i mean, i don't see people throwin up 1 star reviews for pinehurst b/c the fairways were burnt on the edges...

 

what, ya gonna go after pebble if there's a marine layer that comes in?

 

 

I expect perfect conditions in the sense that the course is 100% playable and maintained to keep it that way. The examples you just gave are not analogous to the greenside bunkers having hard pan.

if you had some pictures we'd be able to either agree/disagree with you. at this point its of your opinion as to the softness/hardness of the greens.

the way your initial post came across was a) damning to the caddie, b) damning to the course --- both of which are showing as opinions stemming from a bad day on course.

As Zer0 noted, if it has a rake, it's a bunker. Pretty simple concept really.

When I played it a few years back, the bunkers were in fine shape. The waste areas were just that, waste.

I've played WS more than my fair share of times. Many times on 9, I've watched what I thought was going to be a decent approach, roll off into a bunker, usually on the right side.

My problem with some of the green side bunkers is not the amount of sand, but some are so narrow you can't get your club on the ball. I also found there to be little pockets along the edges of some of the bunkers where it's an unplayable lie. Last time I played there this happened on both 11 and 18.

I still think WS is a great course, but I've personally decided I'd rather play five $100 rounds than one $500 round. FWIW, The River Course is my favorite in Kohler.

As Zer0 noted, if it has a rake, it's a bunker. Pretty simple concept really.

whistling's known for their ideal bunkers to hit out of tho...right? i mean, ya know, the ones with the rakes in them?