Tired of hearing "start the downswing from the ground up"

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

I hate the cliche too just because no one has any idea what it really means but it gets thrown around like its well known specific terminology. I'm not sure "arms" is the answer either, I think feels are individual. Some people might feel more arms and some might feel more lower body. But it's certainly not universal enough to act like either one is the "correct" way.

That said, "start the downswing from the ground up" is a favorite cliche of the charlatans because it sounds sort of sophisticated even though it is devoid of practical meaning, so I doubt it's going anywhere. There will certainly be replies to this thread saying how important it is to start from the ground up and that if you only lose arms you'll flop or EE or something. Those posts as well are equally unhelpful, but that's the way golf instruction debates work.

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the downswing does start from the ground up.

Tired of hearing "start the downswing from the ground up"

 

It is a useless phrase for the most part.

That said, "start the downswing from the ground up" is a favorite cliche of the charlatans because it sounds sort of sophisticated even though it is devoid of practical meaning, so I doubt it's going anywhere.

Totally devoid.

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

They do ?

I don't follow.

Forinstance, I dont see how the arms could help the hip move properly.

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the PROPER downswing does start from the ground up.

Corrected.

Many if not the majority of average hackers start their downswings with their hands.

FWIW, if you have a proper backswing, you have no choice but to start the downswing with the lower body.

A good shoulder turn and hip turn ... I get the feeling that my lower back and butt is facing the target, and my left knee is flexed. From there, unwinding the hips is the only way out ! And as I unwind the hips, my left foot gets more pressure into the ground.

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the downswing does start from the ground up.

Not necessarily.

http://bestperformancegroup.com/?page_id=475

RH

 

Forinstance, I dont see how the arms could help the hip move properly.

Have you tried to swing a club with just your arms without rotating your hips? You have to actively restrict them to even come close to doing so. Your body is forced to turn the hips in order to keep itself in balance, so even when you get the feeling of starting with the arms, your body will force the swing to "start from the ground up" if you don't purposely restrict your hips. It's a feeling that plenty of instructors teach for people who get stuck.

The "planting and unwinding" you're talking about in the next comment is part of a good pressure/weight shift (whatever you want to call it), but it's super easy to leave your arms behind if you're not getting them into the equation early enough.

When some instructors mention from the ground up I think this video is what they mean. In Palmer's swing there is an incredible amount of separation from the upper and lower body. On the downswing, Palmer's left knee probably moves a good 6 inches towards the target before the shoulders and arms even move. The clubhead is still going back.

I don't think this is teachable though. It's the athletic part of the swing and you either have it or you don't. I don't think you need to have that much separation to play good golf but it certainly helps.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Abbr2bdeuQI

It's about "coiling" properly to release your power properly.

Like the accounting term.

LIFO - Last In First Out

Last thing to "turn/coil" in the backswing is the lower body.

First thing to "turn/uncoil" in the downswing is the lower body.

:dntknw:

It is a feeling. I played it both ways where the lower body leads and the upper follows. Or vice versa. Like stated before if you lead the downswing with your hands and forearms the lower body will naturally follow and it is much easier to learn. when hips fire to fast or early it is really hard for the arms to catch up (block) without flipping (hook). Hips to slow hands flip. When you start with the hands and forearms the lower body instinctively follows. starting with hands and forearms creates less timing issues

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the downswing does start from the ground up.

 

Not necessarily. http://bestperforman...om/?page_id=475 RH

Doesn't Monte's Zipper away mean the downswing starts in the middle. :taunt:

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the PROPER downswing does start from the ground up.

Corrected.

 

Many if not the majority of average hackers start their downswings with their hands.

Never seen this happen once when measured with 3D. Haven't seen a single players who's arms start down first.

Actually maybe gravity is what starts the downswing.

As I get near the top of my backswing, I get the feeling my right hip is alot higher than my left.

and when the right hip gets to a certain level above the left ... i get the feeling it's time to start the downswing.

Well ... not really .... just checked the mirrors ... I'm reverse pivoting because of the exaggeration. Haha.

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the PROPER downswing does start from the ground up.

Corrected.

 

Many if not the majority of average hackers start their downswings with their hands.

 

Never seen this happen once when measured with 3D. Haven't seen a single players who's arms start down first.

I've heard this too. This is just the problem when people resort to cliches they don't understand or that are just wrong, it causes all kinds of incorrect assumptions. Based on actual measurements, nobody actually starts with the hands, in fact many don't move their hands fast enough. So telling these people to "start with the lower body" will only make things worse.

But I'm sure we'll get quotes from random golfers and books et al still debating this even though it's just a feel. Data on the mechanics shows that this supposed fatal flaw of "starting with the hands" just doesn't really happen, so everyone bringing it up is just tearing down a strawman.

Never seen this happen once when measured with 3D. Haven't seen a single players who's arms start down first.

I don't know the 3D shows, but the average beginner moves uses his hands and arms too much on the backswing and does the same going forward.

Hitting from the top doesn't seem like it is generated from the legs.

Of course the hands and arms and shoulders are connected to the torso ... I wouldn't be surprised if the torso starts it all, especially with your hips and shoulders turned different amounts.

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the downswing does start from the ground up.

 

Not necessarily.

 

http://bestperformancegroup.com/?page_id=475

It's just another way to understand the same thing, in order to uncoil/unwind, you have to brace yourself with your front foot.

 

What you feel isn't real most of the time, I have pretty active hips and if I feel like I start the downswing by throwing my arms out it usually end up a good swing.

 

 

 

 

RH

Never seen this happen once when measured with 3D. Haven't seen a single players who's arms start down first.

I don't know the 3D shows, but the average beginner moves uses his hands and arms too much on the backswing and does the same going forward.

Hitting from the top doesn't seem like it is generated from the legs.

 

Of course the hands and arms and shoulders are connected to the torso ... I wouldn't be surprised if the torso starts it all, especially with your hips and shoulders turned different amounts.

If you admittedly don't know what the data shows, what are you arguing? Aren't you essentially admitting by saying you don't know what the data shows that you can't really have a fully informed opinion on this?

No beginner should learn the game using this method. It should be arms first. Its nonsense to even bother about the lower body considering the arms will dictate the the direction of the lower body.

 

Here a question "Do you initiate the swing with the hips?" Well there you go folks.

A proper downswing starts from the ground up. Good luck playing any other way...

I've heard this too. This is just the problem when people resort to cliches they don't understand or that are just wrong, it causes all kinds of incorrect assumptions. Based on actual measurements, nobody actually starts with the hands, in fact many don't move their hands fast enough. So telling these people to "start with the lower body" will only make things worse.

 

But I'm sure we'll get quotes from random golfers and books et al still debating this even though it's just a feel. Data on the mechanics shows that this supposed fatal flaw of "starting with the hands" just doesn't really happen, so everyone bringing it up is just tearing down a strawman.

That makes alot of sense.

It probably looks on video like the hands are moving first but that is because they are further away from the body so the movements are easier to see on video. Whereas the torso movements are harder to see (small movements, not easily seen on video).

A proper downswing starts from the ground up. Good luck playing any other way...

What does that mean to you ?

How does your downswing "start" ?

My downswing starts from the core of the earth and goes up from there. Much lower than the ground. I think my pivot is superior to that of those who only start from the ground up.

Easiest way to spot a hack is the guy swinging with all upper body. Most unathletic thing you could do in golf, it is a vital part of the golf swing and really should be the first thing taught. We use our hands for everything. Ita easy to learn the upper body half of the swing. To avoid teaching the lower body would be to not teach a baseball player to step into the pitch. It's stupid. Sorry the you don't like hearing how vital it is, but it's the truth.

Several hundred times I have asked golfers of all skill levels, including the stereotypical over the top beginner/slicer, to start the downswing with the hands/arms and no lower body movement at all.

When someone is able to do it, I'll come here and report it.

Easiest way to spot a hack is the guy swinging with all upper body. Most unathletic thing you could do in golf, it is a vital part of the golf swing and really should be the first thing taught. We use our hands for everything. Ita easy to learn the upper body half of the swing. To avoid teaching the lower body would be to not teach a baseball player to step into the pitch. It's stupid. Sorry the you don't like hearing how vital it is, but it's the truth.

Actually, many hacks lead out with too much lower body/hip turn and makes it appear it's all upper body as the lower body runs out of range of motion too early.

A proper downswing starts from the ground up. Good luck playing any other way...

What does that mean to you ?

How does your downswing "start" ?

Mine? It starts from the ground up...

All shots start with the lower body , including chip shots

You could say with putting the motion is controlled above the hips on shorter strokes

your intent could be to start the downswing with whatever you want it doesn't matter, the lower body would facilitate that move

My downswing starts from the core of the earth and goes up from there. Much lower than the ground. I think my pivot is superior to that of those who only start from the ground up.

Oh you are underachieving, my downswing starts at the core of the galaxy, works up through sun then out to the core of the earth, and only goes up from there.

My downswing starts from the core of the earth and goes up from there. Much lower than the ground. I think my pivot is superior to that of those who only start from the ground up.

 

Oh you are underachieving, my downswing starts at the core of the galaxy, works up through sun then out to the core of the earth, and only goes up from there.

Sounds like a strong pivot. You been working with Gankas?

Regardless of what you feel or what you think you do, the downswing does start from the ground up.

 

Not necessarily.

 

http://bestperforman...om/?page_id=475

 

RH

Nice blog.