Most Over Rated Course on the Major Rotation

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  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,821 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 1, 2019 12:09pm #332

    "fitting in" is the wrong criteria imo. Does the super short 7th fit in? Or the diagonally positioned hourglass shaped 17th?

    What makes coores and Crenshaw so good is they take the land and build the best hole they can...they're not trying to "fit it in". How about using some imagination there? A punch bowl shaped , concave green could have been interesting. Or convex one with a pot bunker guarding the front, while allowing for entrance from either side? No, JN tries to make it "fit in" and in the process designs a kluge of a hole where it slopes front to back, and players can only aim for 1/3rd of the green no matter where the pin is.

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  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JD3 said:
    "fitting in" is the wrong criteria imo. Does the super short 7th fit in? Or the diagonally positioned hourglass shaped 17th?

    What makes coores and Crenshaw so good is they take the land and build the best hole they can...they're not trying to "fit it in". How about using some imagination there? A punch bowl shaped , concave green could have been interesting. Or convex one with a pot bunker guarding the front, while allowing for entrance from either side? No, JN tries to make it "fit in" and in the process designs a kluge of a hole where it slopes front to back, and players can only aim for 1/3rd of the green no matter where the pin is.

    A punch bowl would fit even less. You are not limited to aiming for only 1/3 of the green. Going for dead center over the front bunker is very reasonable. The green slopes with the natural lay of the land. I’ll also note that the old 5th was not heavily bunkered. It had a fairly wide bunker a bit in front of the green with a high lip which, along with the uphill tee shot, made the green somewhat blind. If anything the old 5th did not fit in with the rest of the course and the new 5th is much more of a fit.

  • irvnastyirvnasty Members Posts: 263 ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think the 5th at Pebble is a great hole, but not every hole needs to be great. It fits in well enough IMO. But I agree with sentiments that it's not more than a decent hole with a spectacular view. I suppose the front-to-back green slope and potential to and the ball off the green and run it on add a bit of variety to the course.

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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @FairwayFred said:> The prominent bunkers on 5 pinch the middle of the green in a way unlike the other holes at PB.

    You are either blind or just exposing your dislike of Nicklaus designs. Bunkers on #5 and #6 are almost identical and both greens are "pinched in". Hole number five fits the others perfectly.

    Hole 5:

    Hole 6:

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @JD3 said:
    "fitting in" is the wrong criteria imo. Does the super short 7th fit in? Or the diagonally positioned hourglass shaped 17th?

    What makes coores and Crenshaw so good is they take the land and build the best hole they can...they're not trying to "fit it in".

    Admit it. What makes Coore and Crenshaw so good is their name.

  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 1, 2019 3:35pm #337

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> The prominent bunkers on 5 pinch the middle of the green in a way unlike the other holes at PB.

    You are either blind or just exposing your dislike of Nicklaus designs. Bunkers on #5 and #6 are almost identical and both greens are "pinched in". Hole number five fits the others perfectly.

    Hole 5:

    Hole 6:

    So I post that it's unlike other holes partly because of how the front and back bunker pinch the green in the middle and you post a pic of another green with no bunkering in the front at all and absolutely no resemblance to what I describe. Thx for helping prove my point I appreciate the assist.

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  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 1, 2019 3:38pm #338

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> The prominent bunkers on 5 pinch the middle of the green in a way unlike the other holes at PB.

    You are either blind or just exposing your dislike of Nicklaus designs. Bunkers on #5 and #6 are almost identical and both greens are "pinched in". Hole number five fits the others perfectly.

    Hole 5:

    Hole 6:

    So I post that it's unlike other holes partly because of how the bunkers pinch the green in the middle with the front and back bunker and you post a pic of another green with no bunkering in the front at all and absolutely no resemblance to what I describe. Thx for helping prove my point I appreciate the assist.

    But it is not pinched in the middle. The front bunker is on the left side of the green. The back bunker is middle, from the tee doesn’t line up directly behind the front bunker, and doesn’t pinch the green. The other par-3s on the course all have bunkers in front.
    I like that Nicklaus took a subtle approach while putting in different ways to play the hole. If he put in a contrived green type or aggressive features people would be complaining that he didn’t respect the land and was imposing his style.

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @JD3 said:
    "fitting in" is the wrong criteria imo. Does the super short 7th fit in? Or the diagonally positioned hourglass shaped 17th?

    What makes coores and Crenshaw so good is they take the land and build the best hole they can...they're not trying to "fit it in".

    Admit it. What makes Coore and Crenshaw so good is their name.

    I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> The prominent bunkers on 5 pinch the middle of the green in a way unlike the other holes at PB.

    You are either blind or just exposing your dislike of Nicklaus designs. Bunkers on #5 and #6 are almost identical and both greens are "pinched in". Hole number five fits the others perfectly.

    Hole 5:

    Hole 6:

    So I post that it's unlike other holes partly because of how the bunkers pinch the green in the middle with the front and back bunker and you post a pic of another green with no bunkering in the front at all and absolutely no resemblance to what I describe. Thx for helping prove my point I appreciate the assist.

    But it is not pinched in the middle. The front bunker is on the left side of the green. The back bunker is middle, from the tee doesn’t line up directly behind the front bunker, and doesn’t pinch the green. The other par-3s on the course all have bunkers in front.
    I like that Nicklaus took a subtle approach while putting in different ways to play the hole. If he put in a contrived green type or aggressive features people would be complaining that he didn’t respect the land and was imposing his style.

    The middle between the bunkers is then smallest and tightest part of the green and while the bunkers r offset a little vs each other it definitely pinches the green in the middle. My argument is that the hole is exactly Nicklaus style and fits much more with what he was doing at the time than the rest of the course.

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  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @JD3 said:
    "fitting in" is the wrong criteria imo. Does the super short 7th fit in? Or the diagonally positioned hourglass shaped 17th?

    What makes coores and Crenshaw so good is they take the land and build the best hole they can...they're not trying to "fit it in".

    Admit it. What makes Coore and Crenshaw so good is their name.

    This makes absolutely ZERO sense.

    FREE AGENT CLUB HO NO MO!
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  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 1, 2019 3:50pm #342

    @LICC said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @JD3 said:
    "fitting in" is the wrong criteria imo. Does the super short 7th fit in? Or the diagonally positioned hourglass shaped 17th?

    What makes coores and Crenshaw so good is they take the land and build the best hole they can...they're not trying to "fit it in".

    Admit it. What makes Coore and Crenshaw so good is their name.

    I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I don't understand what Coore Crenshaw has to do with Pebble Beach or why they are relevant to this discussion.

    FREE AGENT CLUB HO NO MO!
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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @FairwayFred said:> I don't understand what Coore Crenshaw has to do with Pebble Beach or why they are relevant to this discussion.

    I agree but see post #332.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:> I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I' ve played six Coore Crenshaw courses. Only one was below standard. The others were very nice. But overall, I think their courses are rated higher than they should be.

  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @LICC said:> I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I' ve played six Coore Crenshaw courses. Only one was below standard. The others were very nice. But overall, I think their courses are rated higher than they should be.

    Which 6 have you played?

    FREE AGENT CLUB HO NO MO!
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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @LICC said:> I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I' ve played six Coore Crenshaw courses. Only one was below standard. The others were very nice. But overall, I think their courses are rated higher than they should be.

    Which 6 have you played?

    Austin Golf Club
    Barton Creek Cliffside
    Colorado Golf Club
    Sand Valley
    Talking Stick
    We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @LICC said:> I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I' ve played six Coore Crenshaw courses. Only one was below standard. The others were very nice. But overall, I think their courses are rated higher than they should be.

    Which 6 have you played?

    Austin Golf Club
    Barton Creek Cliffside
    Colorado Golf Club
    Sand Valley
    Talking Stick
    We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

    Which one didn't you like out of curiosity?

    FREE AGENT CLUB HO NO MO!
    Ari Techner
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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @LICC said:> I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I' ve played six Coore Crenshaw courses. Only one was below standard. The others were very nice. But overall, I think their courses are rated higher than they should be.

    Which 6 have you played?

    Austin Golf Club
    Barton Creek Cliffside
    Colorado Golf Club
    Sand Valley
    Talking Stick
    We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

    Which one didn't you like out of curiosity?

    Barton Creek Cliffside. It's the weakest of our four courses.

    Also, I enjoyed Sand Valley but I think it is overrated. Also Austin Golf Club.

  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @LICC said:> I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I' ve played six Coore Crenshaw courses. Only one was below standard. The others were very nice. But overall, I think their courses are rated higher than they should be.

    Which 6 have you played?

    Austin Golf Club
    Barton Creek Cliffside
    Colorado Golf Club
    Sand Valley
    Talking Stick
    We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

    Which one didn't you like out of curiosity?

    Barton Creek Cliffside. It's the weakest of our four courses.

    Also, I enjoyed Sand Valley but I think it is overrated. Also Austin Golf Club.

    Interesting. I've never heard anything very good about the CC course at Barton. Seems like the red headed step child of the resort.
    Also interestingly enough Ive not played Austin GC, Barton or Sand Valley but I have played the other 3 and just about every other Coore Crenshaw in the US other than Kapalua.
    You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

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  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,821 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 1, 2019 8:35pm #350

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @JD3 said:
    "fitting in" is the wrong criteria imo. Does the super short 7th fit in? Or the diagonally positioned hourglass shaped 17th?

    What makes coores and Crenshaw so good is they take the land and build the best hole they can...they're not trying to "fit it in".

    Admit it. What makes Coore and Crenshaw so good is their name.

    This makes absolutely ZERO sense.

    yeah really, he/she keeps pushing that narrative, but before course design I never heard of Coore, and Nicklaus is a far more prestigious golfer than Crenshaw.

    Post edited by JD3 on
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  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @LICC said:> I’ve played two Coore Crenshaw courses and thought both were excellent. I’ve also played numerous Nicklaus courses that have ranged from good to excellent to spectacular.

    I' ve played six Coore Crenshaw courses. Only one was below standard. The others were very nice. But overall, I think their courses are rated higher than they should be.

    Which 6 have you played?

    Austin Golf Club
    Barton Creek Cliffside
    Colorado Golf Club
    Sand Valley
    Talking Stick
    We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

    Which one didn't you like out of curiosity?

    Barton Creek Cliffside. It's the weakest of our four courses.

    Also, I enjoyed Sand Valley but I think it is overrated. Also Austin Golf Club.

    Interesting. I've never heard anything very good about the CC course at Barton. Seems like the red headed step child of the resort.
    Also interestingly enough Ive not played Austin GC, Barton or Sand Valley but I have played the other 3 and just about every other Coore Crenshaw in the US other than Kapalua.
    You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

    I’ve played Cuscowilla and Streamsong Red. Both excellent, especially Streamsong. Great strategic options and variety. Great use of the land. And nothing overdone.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @FairwayFred said:> You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

    I would love to, but they are not likely due to location. My next few destinations are;

    Cabot Links
    Lake Tahoe
    Punta Cana
    Banff
    Bandon Dunes

  • DFS PFDDFS PFD Members Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

    I would love to, but they are not likely due to location. My next few destinations are;

    Cabot Links
    Lake Tahoe
    Punta Cana
    Banff
    Bandon Dunes

    Make sure to hit Montreux, or Old Greenwood while in Tahoe.

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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 1, 2019 11:41pm #354

    @DFS PFD said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

    I would love to, but they are not likely due to location. My next few destinations are;

    Cabot Links
    Lake Tahoe
    Punta Cana
    Banff
    Bandon Dunes

    Make sure to hit Montreux, or Old Greenwood while in Tahoe.

    Old Greenwood is on the list but I'm not familiar with Montreux. We are staying in Truckee.

  • cdnglfcdnglf Members Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

    I would love to, but they are not likely due to location. My next few destinations are;

    Cabot Links
    Lake Tahoe
    Punta Cana
    Banff
    Bandon Dunes

    You probably already know this, but...
    if you’re going all the way to Cape Breton, you might want to play Highlands Links too. Like Banff, it was designed by Stanley Thompson. At least top 10 on every list of Canadian courses that I’ve ever seen.

  • HankshankHankshank Members Posts: 1,720 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 2, 2019 10:14am #356

    @elwhippy said:
    In the UK St Andrew's Old Course. Great history but an abysmal viewing venue and too for modern players. If it is calm in 2021 I reckon someone could break 60. If the R&A HQ was somewhere else the OC would be used a lot less. In the US got to be Whistling....made by bulldozers and someone with a distorted idea of what fun is about. Oh and Day tore it to bits....

    Old course, yes and no. If you’ve been to the place, It’s magic. To go there playing with the views of the town and the sea, the caddie who tell you ”aye, ee was borrn en sant Androos... ee lost me verrrgeenity in sant Androos”. Playing the tee shot at 17, the whole area made up by 1, 18 R&A, Rusacks, that brown building, the ”larrgesst peeniss in Scotland” and that golf museum... watching tournaments from there, that brings back those memories. Also from earlier tournaments, Rocca going crazy after the putt from valley of sin. And so on.

    At the same time, the largest number of lackluster holes on a major course save Pinehurst. That whole stretch from 13-16 and more. Even if you know the name of all the bunkers.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @cdnglf said:> You probably already know this, but...
    if you’re going all the way to Cape Breton, you might want to play Highlands Links too. Like Banff, it was designed by Stanley Thompson. At least top 10 on every list of Canadian courses that I’ve ever seen.

    Yes, but I couldn't work it in.

  • teejaywhyteejaywhy Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon Members Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @DFS PFD said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

    I would love to, but they are not likely due to location. My next few destinations are;

    Cabot Links
    Lake Tahoe
    Punta Cana
    Banff
    Bandon Dunes

    Make sure to hit Montreux, or Old Greenwood while in Tahoe.

    Old Greenwood is on the list but I'm not familiar with Montreux. We are staying in Truckee.

    If you can access Clear Creek Tahoe, well worth it. Head and shoulders above the others I've played in the area.

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 12, 2019 4:23pm #359

    @FairwayFred said:

    @LICC said:

    @FairwayFred said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> The prominent bunkers on 5 pinch the middle of the green in a way unlike the other holes at PB.

    You are either blind or just exposing your dislike of Nicklaus designs. Bunkers on #5 and #6 are almost identical and both greens are "pinched in". Hole number five fits the others perfectly.

    Hole 5:

    Hole 6:

    So I post that it's unlike other holes partly because of how the bunkers pinch the green in the middle with the front and back bunker and you post a pic of another green with no bunkering in the front at all and absolutely no resemblance to what I describe. Thx for helping prove my point I appreciate the assist.

    But it is not pinched in the middle. The front bunker is on the left side of the green. The back bunker is middle, from the tee doesn’t line up directly behind the front bunker, and doesn’t pinch the green. The other par-3s on the course all have bunkers in front.
    I like that Nicklaus took a subtle approach while putting in different ways to play the hole. If he put in a contrived green type or aggressive features people would be complaining that he didn’t respect the land and was imposing his style.

    The middle between the bunkers is then smallest and tightest part of the green and while the bunkers r offset a little vs each other it definitely pinches the green in the middle. My argument is that the hole is exactly Nicklaus style and fits much more with what he was doing at the time than the rest of the course.

    This video is one of the few that shows the old 5th hole at Pebble. The old one didn't seem to have more than minimal bunkering and no more than the new Nicklaus 5th. And the video of the new hole shows that unless you want bunkering around the entire front of the green, there isn't that much more that could have been done. The trees behind the green were not allowed to be moved and likely made putting a bunker back there not feasible. Nicklaus discusses his rationale in the video as to why it is a better hole to have the left side approach open.
    https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/videos/2018/08/19/us-amateur-jack-nicklaus-pebble-beach-fifth-hole.html

  • Dsevans8Dsevans8 Members Posts: 256 ✭✭✭✭

    @teejaywhy said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @DFS PFD said:

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @FairwayFred said:> You need to go play Sand Hills or Friars Head sometime.

    I would love to, but they are not likely due to location. My next few destinations are;

    Cabot Links
    Lake Tahoe
    Punta Cana
    Banff
    Bandon Dunes

    Make sure to hit Montreux, or Old Greenwood while in Tahoe.

    Old Greenwood is on the list but I'm not familiar with Montreux. We are staying in Truckee.

    If you can access Clear Creek Tahoe, well worth it. Head and shoulders above the others I've played in the area.

    Would you put Clear Creek above Martis Camp and Lahontan? I have some connections up that way and was thinking about going up there for a few rounds before the season ended... going to cost me a pretty penny so probably won't get to play them all.

  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 12, 2019 5:11pm #361

    @Ferguson said:
    The Camp David 9-Holer. Hasn't been the same since they shortened 3 and 4.

    Actually, Camp David only has a single green with a couple of tee areas. Judging by the most current GoogleMaps image, it's currently undergoing renovation. The nearest course to the compound is Maple Run, which is quite possibly the worst pos golf course on the face of the Earth.

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