Offset... Is this really necessary anymore?

So, it is a proven fact that offset helps golfers close the club face at impact. If anyone refutes this, please tell me more.

What I don't get is that players, tour pros include, play game improvement irons, with more offset than I can bear to look at, then play hybrids, fairways and drivers with no offset... none what so ever! If it is so darn helpful, why don't golfers play it through the whole set, from LW to Driver?

You basically train your release to hold off at impact cause you have a half inch of offset to help close the club face, then you get to the driver and slice the crap out of it. (not everyone does this, but its safe to say a majority of golfers fit this category)

Honestly, I think people are just more comfortable looking at offset irons and now companies sell it as "inspires confidence at address." Well then, why aren't they trying to inspire confidence at address on their drivers?

But, the same golfers can't stand looking at drivers with offset. Possibly because it's anti aesthetic or its an ego thing. But who am I kidding, golfers don't have egos...

I think golfers in general would benefit from learning how to play golf with irons that have little to no offset (when I say little, I mean less then .08 inches, which is pretty much the offset for a standard pitching wedge)

This doesn't mean that everyone needs to play blades... heavens no. I'm just saying it would be really awesome to play a set of game improvement irons, game enjoyment irons, or even oversized clubs with no offset.

I would honestly love to hear others opinions about this, because it seriously baffles me.

The main purpose of offset is to launch the ball higher; offset pushes the center of gravity of the head behind the shaft axis, and during the swing the GG want to align with the shaft axis thus the shaft bends forward at impact which adds "dynamic loft". There is a very tiny amount of face closure to go with the dynamic loft but it's minimal. By having the head behind the shaft axis there is an extra millisecond to allow the player to close the face coming into impact but this contribution to causing the ball to move in a hooking pattern is also very minimal.

Regarding GI clubs with low offset, I agree that would be nice. I'm not a fan of small players irons and prefer some size to my clubs. I also don't like tons of offset. I've learned that the offset doesn't cause me to hook, it's mostly an appearance thing. The J15 Cast irons that show in my WITB signature have some offset but it's well disguised and doesn't bother me. That's one of the main reasons I use those clubs.

Drivers and hybrids also utilize other bits of technology to launch the ball higher that are not offered in irons.

The main purpose of offset is to launch the ball higher; offset pushes the center of gravity of the head behind the shaft axis, and during the swing the GG want to align with the shaft axis thus the shaft bends forward at impact which adds "dynamic loft". There is a very tiny amount of face closure to go with the dynamic loft but it's minimal. By having the head behind the shaft axis there is an extra millisecond to allow the player to close the face coming into impact but this contribution to causing the ball to move in a hooking pattern is also very minimal.

 

Regarding GI clubs with low offset, I agree that would be nice. I'm not a fan of small players irons and prefer some size to my clubs. I also don't like tons of offset. I've learned that the offset doesn't cause me to hook, it's mostly an appearance thing. The J15 Cast irons that show in my WITB signature have some offset but it's well disguised and doesn't bother me. That's one of the main reasons I use those clubs.

The Tommy Armour 845's of the early 90's were a great example of combining a smaller GI head, with perimeter weighting, along with progressive offset. Their original PW in the earliest sets lofted at 48 degrees, with no offset, and the offset slowly progressed through the set to the longer irons. Their 855 irons, coming along a few years later, were much too big, IMHO, and might have been a good match for some golfers, but certainly not for better players.

Incidentally, both Fred Couples and Davis Love III played those early 845's, gaining world ranking of 1 & 2....so, they seemed to appeal to a player that really didn't "need" a GI iron.

Just as an observation....we talk about "offset".....when there is what I believe a better term: face progression.

If you've never seen the Jerry Barber "shankproof" wedges...there is a great example of a face progression that it is the opposite of what we call "offset".

The leading edge of the face actually sits in front of the centerline axis of the shaft, to "insure" face contact before "shaft" contact.

This was also very prevalent in wooden head designs of the past. My buddy growing up had a MacGregor Nicklaus persimmon driver that had the face just slightly in front of the center line axis of the shaft....my PowerBilt Citation had a bit more face progression. It actually helped me to eliminate a possible hook, because the face was always getting to the ball sooner, and usually just a bit more open.

Face progression seems to be something that very few people discuss, other than "offset" as opposed to "traditional" faces.

The Cleveland VAS line also displayed this technology....and, Corey Pavin won a US Open with these clubs.

Like I always maintain...it ain't the pipe, it's the plumber

Only one club in my bag has offset. The putter. The more offset the better roll I get on the ball I tend to use a putter with full shaft offset in mid summer when I need to control my roll better. In the other seasons the grass is more dormant and seems easier to roll with putter with very little offset

Long club I just close the clubface by releasing my forearms. Offset seems to add unnecessary complications to alignment for my long clubs

I play offset completely thru the bag. Look at the signature. there is no harm in offset. If you find clubs that you like to look at with offset, which is hard sometimes because some look like the pics Ken posted above, play them and enjoy the help.

The main purpose of offset is to launch the ball higher; offset pushes the center of gravity of the head behind the shaft axis, and during the swing the GG want to align with the shaft axis thus the shaft bends forward at impact which adds "dynamic loft". There is a very tiny amount of face closure to go with the dynamic loft but it's minimal. By having the head behind the shaft axis there is an extra millisecond to allow the player to close the face coming into impact but this contribution to causing the ball to move in a hooking pattern is also very minimal.

 

Regarding GI clubs with low offset, I agree that would be nice. I'm not a fan of small players irons and prefer some size to my clubs. I also don't like tons of offset. I've learned that the offset doesn't cause me to hook, it's mostly an appearance thing. The J15 Cast irons that show in my WITB signature have some offset but it's well disguised and doesn't bother me. That's one of the main reasons I use those clubs.

Okay... Launch... that does bring another element to offset that I didn't realize before. Most golfers do need higher ball flights to hold greens.

I'd venture to say that with the amazing engineering feats of today's GI clubs combined with offset are the reasons for the lofts getting pushed up, for instance PW's are about 44-46 degrees on average now. A real shame IMO. Now we will need a second gap wedge to fill the ever increasing gap.

Based on your CG explanation, we could possibly still get higher launch without offset.

I play offset completely thru the bag. Look at the signature. there is no harm in offset. If you find clubs that you like to look at with offset, which is hard sometimes because some look like the pics Ken posted above, play them and enjoy the help.

No harm at all. You own it and that is awesome. Much respect to you.

Personally, I play better with less offset, from irons to putter. I officially putt much worse with a full shaft offset after some serious trial and error this season.

There are plenty of people out there that it (offset) will be good for, and plenty of people it wouldn't be a good thing for. Just like open/closed adjustments for club faces.

I think the OP is referring to offset in the sense of a band aid for the swing, and I agree in the sense that if it's covering a problem, you're never going to fix it. In theory, it should be better for almost anyone, but no two golf swings are the same, and not one single element fits every golfer better.

Personally I can't stand the look of an iron without offset. It screams 1930 to me. I prefer contemporary looks.

Offset creates shaft lean automatically without delofting the clubhead. Most pro's use it and everyone benefits.

If you have no trouble launching the ball high to begin with, can offset be detrimental ie. could it contribute to you launching the ball too high and potentially rob you of distance?

I've always thought that one of the most unique and desirable aspects, is a set that has constant offset. Whether is little, medium, or a lot....every iron has the same offset. A bonus would be if all the wedges had about the same as well.

Never understood how anyone could stand to look at a 4 iron that has almost twice as much offset as their 8 iron

If you have no trouble launching the ball high to begin with, can offset be detrimental ie. could it contribute to you launching the ball too high and potentially rob you of distance?

Theoretically it could.

But, in most cases that I have seen (I'm a former PGA teaching pro) when a golfer has a high ball flight, they tend to sweep or pick the ball clean, and usually a cast motion is involved through the downswing causing an increase in loft. I've had students swing a PW with all they had in them, and it would go sky high 100 yards, then after a few lessons of working on impact and compressing the ball, and taking a divot after, a swing with a lot less effort produces a 125 yard PW.

So, with your specific question I would lean towards technique, unless you happen to hit your 7 iron 175 at sea level, then it would be more of a factor of swing speed, spin rates and shaft kick and potentially offset clubs that I would associate with a high ball flight.

Some people like offset. You don't. You can't stand to look at it, I guess.

Don't be so angry. Nobody's gonna force you to use offset, and what's in other people's bag is not your business. Deep breathing exercises might help.

Only one club in my bag has offset. The putter. The more offset the better roll I get on the ball I tend to use a putter with full shaft offset in mid summer when I need to control my roll better. In the other seasons the grass is more dormant and seems easier to roll with putter with very little offset

 

Long club I just close the clubface by releasing my forearms. Offset seems to add unnecessary complications to alignment for my long clubs

What irons and wedges do you play? It's extremely difficult to find sets without offset. Most people look at a club, like a Mizuno MP series iron, and say they have no offset, when in reality they do.

Only one club in my bag has offset. The putter. The more offset the better roll I get on the ball I tend to use a putter with full shaft offset in mid summer when I need to control my roll better. In the other seasons the grass is more dormant and seems easier to roll with putter with very little offset

 

Long club I just close the clubface by releasing my forearms. Offset seems to add unnecessary complications to alignment for my long clubs

 

What irons and wedges do you play? It's extremely difficult to find sets without offset. Most people look at a club, like a Mizuno MP series iron, and say they have no offset, when in reality they do.

You are quite right...even the MP4s have a small degree of offset. However, it is when you compare them with something like the G30 that has three times the amount of offset in the long irons that it is really noticeable. A quarter of an inch of additional offset really does throw club alignment off for some players and encourage the hooks. If you have a high ball flight to start with, the higher launching characteristics are really no help either. We know that one club type does not fit all and it really is horses for courses.

The main purpose of offset is to launch the ball higher; offset pushes the center of gravity of the head behind the shaft axis, and during the swing the GG want to align with the shaft axis thus the shaft bends forward at impact which adds "dynamic loft". There is a very tiny amount of face closure to go with the dynamic loft but it's minimal. By having the head behind the shaft axis there is an extra millisecond to allow the player to close the face coming into impact but this contribution to causing the ball to move in a hooking pattern is also very minimal.

 

Regarding GI clubs with low offset, I agree that would be nice. I'm not a fan of small players irons and prefer some size to my clubs. I also don't like tons of offset. I've learned that the offset doesn't cause me to hook, it's mostly an appearance thing. The J15 Cast irons that show in my WITB signature have some offset but it's well disguised and doesn't bother me. That's one of the main reasons I use those clubs.

 

The Tommy Armour 845's of the early 90's were a great example of combining a smaller GI head, with perimeter weighting, along with progressive offset. Their original PW in the earliest sets lofted at 48 degrees, with no offset, and the offset slowly progressed through the set to the longer irons. Their 855 irons, coming along a few years later, were much too big, IMHO, and might have been a good match for some golfers, but certainly not for better players.

 

Incidentally, both Fred Couples and Davis Love III played those early 845's, gaining world ranking of 1 & 2....so, they seemed to appeal to a player that really didn't "need" a GI iron.

 

Just as an observation....we talk about "offset".....when there is what I believe a better term: face progression.

 

If you've never seen the Jerry Barber "shankproof" wedges...there is a great example of a face progression that it is the opposite of what we call "offset".

 

The leading edge of the face actually sits in front of the centerline axis of the shaft, to "insure" face contact before "shaft" contact.

 

This was also very prevalent in wooden head designs of the past. My buddy growing up had a MacGregor Nicklaus persimmon driver that had the face just slightly in front of the center line axis of the shaft....my PowerBilt Citation had a bit more face progression. It actually helped me to eliminate a possible hook, because the face was always getting to the ball sooner, and usually just a bit more open.

 

Face progression seems to be something that very few people discuss, other than "offset" as opposed to "traditional" faces.

 

The Cleveland VAS line also displayed this technology....and, Corey Pavin won a US Open with these clubs.

 

Like I always maintain...it ain't the pipe, it's the plumber

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually I'm pretty sure that Freddie played Lynx irons in the 90's. So did Ernie Els.

The main purpose of offset is to launch the ball higher; offset pushes the center of gravity of the head behind the shaft axis, and during the swing the GG want to align with the shaft axis thus the shaft bends forward at impact which adds "dynamic loft". There is a very tiny amount of face closure to go with the dynamic loft but it's minimal. By having the head behind the shaft axis there is an extra millisecond to allow the player to close the face coming into impact but this contribution to causing the ball to move in a hooking pattern is also very minimal.

 

Regarding GI clubs with low offset, I agree that would be nice. I'm not a fan of small players irons and prefer some size to my clubs. I also don't like tons of offset. I've learned that the offset doesn't cause me to hook, it's mostly an appearance thing. The J15 Cast irons that show in my WITB signature have some offset but it's well disguised and doesn't bother me. That's one of the main reasons I use those clubs.

 

The Tommy Armour 845's of the early 90's were a great example of combining a smaller GI head, with perimeter weighting, along with progressive offset. Their original PW in the earliest sets lofted at 48 degrees, with no offset, and the offset slowly progressed through the set to the longer irons. Their 855 irons, coming along a few years later, were much too big, IMHO, and might have been a good match for some golfers, but certainly not for better players.

 

Incidentally, both Fred Couples and Davis Love III played those early 845's, gaining world ranking of 1 & 2....so, they seemed to appeal to a player that really didn't "need" a GI iron.

 

Just as an observation....we talk about "offset".....when there is what I believe a better term: face progression.

 

If you've never seen the Jerry Barber "shankproof" wedges...there is a great example of a face progression that it is the opposite of what we call "offset".

 

The leading edge of the face actually sits in front of the centerline axis of the shaft, to "insure" face contact before "shaft" contact.

 

This was also very prevalent in wooden head designs of the past. My buddy growing up had a MacGregor Nicklaus persimmon driver that had the face just slightly in front of the center line axis of the shaft....my PowerBilt Citation had a bit more face progression. It actually helped me to eliminate a possible hook, because the face was always getting to the ball sooner, and usually just a bit more open.

 

Face progression seems to be something that very few people discuss, other than "offset" as opposed to "traditional" faces.

 

The Cleveland VAS line also displayed this technology....and, Corey Pavin won a US Open with these clubs.

 

Like I always maintain...it ain't the pipe, it's the plumber

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually I'm pretty sure that Freddie played Lynx irons in the 90's. So did Ernie Els.

Fred played 845s befor he signed with Lynx.

Some people like offset. You don't. You can't stand to look at it, I guess.

 

Don't be so angry. Nobody's gonna force you to use offset, and what's in other people's bag is not your business. Deep breathing exercises might help.

"breathing..." in... out... :yes:

Obviously it's all about preference. And this is what forums are for, sharing opinions.

Not angry... just frustrated, because 95% of all irons made by the major manufacturers have a lot of offset. So I get pidgen holed into using whats available. Ultimately it makes my preference of no offset extremely difficult to find. Honesty, the last set of constant offset irons, which I would consider no offset was made by Titleist in 2000, the 681's/T blades.

Now I play Cobra KING MB's which actually have less progressive offset through the set and therefore I am in heaven. Problem is it took 16 years for a manufacture to do it.

Then when I'm 50, and I don't want to play blades anymore, I know I won't find a set of GI irons with no offset. I'll be forced to play what's made.

So, indirectly, I will be forced to play offset if I want a very forgiving set of irons.

Some people are sensitive to larger offset and some are not.

There will always be a 'players' category of CB's with little offset. Trying to find SGI irons with little offset has always been a needle in a haystack.

Now, if you really want to get irate, try to find easy to hit, high launching fairway woods with open face angles. Coming across those are like finding Bigfoot.

Only one club in my bag has offset. The putter. The more offset the better roll I get on the ball I tend to use a putter with full shaft offset in mid summer when I need to control my roll better. In the other seasons the grass is more dormant and seems easier to roll with putter with very little offset

 

Long club I just close the clubface by releasing my forearms. Offset seems to add unnecessary complications to alignment for my long clubs

 

What irons and wedges do you play? It's extremely difficult to find sets without offset. Most people look at a club, like a Mizuno MP series iron, and say they have no offset, when in reality they do.

I have Taylormade Rac irons and vokey wedges

To me there's no noticeable offset

I tried a set of Ping eye 2 and there's very obvious offset in that set

Though I did like ping eye2 wedge and still play with it on occasion but prefer the vokey

I have Taylormade Rac irons and vokey wedges

To me there's no noticeable offset

Pretty much all irons have offset, it's just a matter of how much.

I have Taylormade Rac irons and vokey wedges

To me there's no noticeable offset

 

Pretty much all irons have offset, it's just a matter of how much.

 

 

Thanks for posting those specs. While 3mm seems minuscule in comparison to some GI sets, I simply can't commit to it. It's hard for my eye to play anything over 2mm. Honestly, most people that see an iron with less than 2mm offset would say there is no offset. For instance, out of personal preference I won't play the new Titleist 716 mb's. Only the 8-pw look decent enough to play, the rest of the set has too much.

I think JDM brand On/Off makes some low offset, more forgiving irons. But, it is pretty hard to find a set that is geared a little more towards game improvement with very little offset.

KZG used to make a zero offset iron. Might be worth checking out if you really can't stand offset.

Thanks for posting those specs. While 3mm seems minuscule in comparison to some GI sets, I simply can't commit to it. It's hard for my eye to play anything over 2mm. Honestly, most people that see an iron with less than 2mm offset would say there is no offset. For instance, out of personal preference I won't play the new Titleist 716 mb's. Only the 8-pw look decent enough to play, the rest of the set has too much.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you have a hangup. I used to be that way too (to a lesser degree than you though), but thankfully I got over it.

More than a decade of using blades resulted in my brain rejecting anything other than small players clubs. I slowly evolved into using players cavities, with return trips to blades intermixed into the process. Only a forced hiatus away from golf of 8 years truly broke me of my bias. And I'm glad it did. I still don't like tons of offset but I've found the clubs performance was not negatively affecting my scores. Just swing baby, and a good swing will be rewarded regardless of head size and offset.

I have Taylormade Rac irons and vokey wedges

To me there's no noticeable offset

 

Pretty much all irons have offset, it's just a matter of how much.

 

 

I dont have rac lt .

I have rac mb

The rac lt have notable offset to the naked eye

The mbs not so much

Just an FYI - those would be 1.8mm for the PW up to 3.4mm for the 2 iron.

I didnt realize that all irons have offset. it certainly doesnt look obvious to naked eye with my Rac Mb

Im surprised that SW has the least and 2iron has the most.

Thought it might be the other way around.

I think that reason might be how much the hosel sticks out in front of the middle of the face making it easier to shank a wedge than an 2 iron so to "offset' that

the lower lofted irons are offset more so equal amount of hosel is availble as there is in a SW.

Some people like offset. You don't. You can't stand to look at it, I guess.

 

Don't be so angry. Nobody's gonna force you to use offset, and what's in other people's bag is not your business. Deep breathing exercises might help.

 

"breathing..." in... out... :yes:

 

Obviously it's all about preference. And this is what forums are for, sharing opinions.

 

Not angry... just frustrated, because 95% of all irons made by the major manufacturers have a lot of offset. So I get pidgen holed into using whats available. Ultimately it makes my preference of no offset extremely difficult to find. Honesty, the last set of constant offset irons, which I would consider no offset was made by Titleist in 2000, the 681's/T blades.

 

Now I play Cobra KING MB's which actually have less progressive offset through the set and therefore I am in heaven. Problem is it took 16 years for a manufacture to do it.

 

Then when I'm 50, and I don't want to play blades anymore, I know I won't find a set of GI irons with no offset. I'll be forced to play what's made.

 

So, indirectly, I will be forced to play offset if I want a very forgiving set of irons.

You should probably try to find a set of black dot Maxfli Revolution irons. Unless you're playing events with the groove rule as a condition of competition, that is.