The cupped left wrist? How does this prevent a hook? Wouldn't a cupped left wrist be akin to a "flipped" left wrist. Doesn't flipping cause the hooks? At least in me it does

Pretty sure with all I've ever studied, "flip" wasn't ever mentioned anywhere

Supination

I remember seeing on a few instagram comments, by some of George Gankas students, that they said George feels that he has figured out Hogan's secret. It has something to do with the pivot and the level turn of the shoulders throughout the swing. IDK I like a steep shoulder turn myself.

I remember seeing on a few instagram comments, by some of George Gankas students, that they said George feels that he has figured out Hogan's secret. It has something to do with the pivot and the level turn of the shoulders throughout the swing. IDK I like a steep shoulder turn myself.

Horizontal shoulder turn shallows the clubhead thru impact though, so that could be a secret to many with steep AoA

I remember seeing on a few instagram comments, by some of George Gankas students, that they said George feels that he has figured out Hogan's secret. It has something to do with the pivot and the level turn of the shoulders throughout the swing. IDK I like a steep shoulder turn myself.

Horizontal shoulder turn shallows the clubhead thru impact though, so that could be a secret to many with steep AoA

Pretty sure with all I've ever studied, "flip" wasn't ever mentioned anywhere

 

Supination

Yes I know. But in the Life Magazine article, and many believe it, that his secret was the cup. I could never figure out why and how it prevents the hooks. If at all it encourages it, at least in my experience.

Maybe Hogan removes the cup all the way down, but how?

The cup is a turning of the wrist as opposed to bending it back on itself which is a flip. He loses some of it on the way down but that's the whole idea, get it so open he can't hook no matter how hard he releases. If he didn't lose the cup with his grip he'd hit it wide right. The weak grip allows him to be turned the other way at impact and bowed. The cup at the top allows a lot of closure coming down in the knowledge he can't do it too much because he's set the workable parameters with his grip.

You've lost me on the steep shoulder turn. From hip high to hip high coming down his left shoulder clears out of the way to the left more than any of the thousands of swings I've analysed. You might put up sequence photos to the contrary...

Work backwards. What type of release did Hogan use? Forget Gankas....LOL.

AC

The cup is a turning of the wrist as opposed to bending it back on itself which is a flip. He loses some of it on the way down but that's the whole idea, get it so open he can't hook no matter how hard he releases. If he didn't lose the cup with his grip he'd hit it wide right. The weak grip allows him to be turned the other way at impact and bowed. The cup at the top allows a lot of closure coming down in the knowledge he can't do it too much because he's set the workable parameters with his grip.

 

You've lost me on the steep shoulder turn. From hip high to hip high coming down his left shoulder clears out of the way to the left more than any of the thousands of swings I've analysed. You might put up sequence photos to the contrary...

Physical or anatomical evidence is his extraordinary body extension of his left side. No way your shoulders could turn more horizontal with that

Work backwards. What type of release did Hogan use? Forget Gankas....LOL.

 

AC

The release...worthy of another great topic/thread. By feel/intent I think it's exactly what he said in Five Lessons.

But due to his grip, low hands swing/plane and huge left side extension (vertical shoulder turn) thru impact, it looks like a "keep it square" release

The cup is a turning of the wrist as opposed to bending it back on itself which is a flip. He loses some of it on the way down but that's the whole idea, get it so open he can't hook no matter how hard he releases. If he didn't lose the cup with his grip he'd hit it wide right. The weak grip allows him to be turned the other way at impact and bowed. The cup at the top allows a lot of closure coming down in the knowledge he can't do it too much because he's set the workable parameters with his grip.

 

You've lost me on the steep shoulder turn. From hip high to hip high coming down his left shoulder clears out of the way to the left more than any of the thousands of swings I've analysed. You might put up sequence photos to the contrary...

It's more open than most, yes. But it's also more vertical than most. All down the line pictures of him where you can catch a frame slightly post impact you'll notice his right shoulder very low and left shoulder very high. You'll see a lot of pictures of Hogan post impact where his shoulders are already more horizontal, but that's a frame too late. I've found that previous frames (if available) of same swing post impact always shows a very low right shoulder and high left shoulder. It's just that Hogan stands up very early after impact, but this is after impact.

 

Physical or anatomical evidence is his extraordinary body extension of his left side. No way your shoulders could turn more horizontal with it

Isolating individual frames within a motion is folly. If you view it as an entire motion even in slow it's not vertical at all. His forward and side bend creates an illusion. Well left while keeping head behind it makes it impossible to have a high right shoulder but that's the beauty of getting left so early - shallows everything out and allows early rotation without any wait. A high right shoulder and flat shoulder rotation appearance in the frame you're talking about would lead to a very steep angle of attack.

If you do what he says in the Life article it will keep the face open. For me it turns a draw into a push slice. If I need to really bend one right I will use the secret. I don't have the skill Hogan had to use it foe a slight fade.

In many of his swings the cup appears to be gone by P5 and almost always gone by P6 ... it's due to the bending or dorsiflexion of the right wrist and the CW winding of his right arm. Example ...

Now at impact, regardless of wrist conditions, the right hand can roll over with the supinating left making face closure timing dependent ... being a very fine athlete, he could time it well sometimes but not as consistently as he desired.

IMO, one needs to look to the RIGHT hand for the secret that gave him control of the clubface and helped him rid himself of the hooks. He even left us a few clues ...

If it is the cup, how would it be a secret? Everybody knows about the cup.

Once again, Hogan never said he had a secret, he said "Dig It Out of the Dirt". To me that means find your own swing by practicing your a## off, and that is what he did.

I naturally cup and it seems to open the face. It's hard for me to release hard enough to hit a hook.

I make a short flat turn too.

I probably shouldn't have started this game with the Five Lessons. ?

Below is an excerpt from George Peper's interview with Ben Hogan in the September of 1987 edition of Golf Magazine ...

HOGAN: Yes, years ago. When I first started on Tour, I had a terrible problem with a hook and I struggled constantly to learn to fade the ball. Finally, one day I said to myself, "Henny Bogan, you have got to go home and correct this. Otherwise you're never gonna make a living."

So I came home for two weeks and worked and thought about my game. I'll never forget, one night in bed I got an idea, something I might try. Well, I could barely wait for the sun to come up the next morning. Out I went to the practice tee and started trying out my theory. It worked. It worked all day long. And the next day. And the next day too.

So I said, I've got to take this out on Tour and put it under some pressure. The next week was the George May Tournament in Chicago—and in those days he had two events, back to back. A big field of players competed the first week, and then the top 12 from that tournament went on to play for big money the following week. Well, I went up there and won both of them.

GOLF: What was that inspiration?

HOGAN: I'm not telling (smiling).

GOLF: Did it relate to one of the fundamentals in your book, "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf"?

HOGAN: Yes, it did.

GOLF: It was the part about pronation and supination, wasn't it?

HOGAN: Well, yes it was, but it all gets back to the grip. You can't make those moves unless you have the proper hold on the club. It's like steering an automobile. You don't steer to the right all the time, you also steer to the left. That ability has to come from the grip, which is the transformer through which the juice flows.

Seems he told the secret during the interview.

Seems he told the secret during the interview.

OK, so describe for us exactly what it was, not just what it "dealt with". What is it that everyone knew? Please tell us the idea that he got in bed one night that he was able to make work in one day?

Thanks.

Sounds like it is the grip.

I have never understood why people make others larger than life and want to add some mystic potion that only they know. Hogan was a great player, nobody denies it. I think he pretty much describes his method in his book of lessons. Don't we all come to some revelation at some point on how to adjust our game, it is not unique. Again, he practiced his a** off, if you do it correctly you become repeatable.

Hogan's swing has been broken down by practically every swing expert there is. They haven't discovered a secret because there isn't one. No magic, just hard work and focus.

Also, there is no Santa Claus.

right hand works under the left not over it!

The cup is a turning of the wrist as opposed to bending it back on itself which is a flip. He loses some of it on the way down but that's the whole idea, get it so open he can't hook no matter how hard he releases. If he didn't lose the cup with his grip he'd hit it wide right. The weak grip allows him to be turned the other way at impact and bowed. The cup at the top allows a lot of closure coming down in the knowledge he can't do it too much because he's set the workable parameters with his grip.

 

You've lost me on the steep shoulder turn. From hip high to hip high coming down his left shoulder clears out of the way to the left more than any of the thousands of swings I've analysed. You might put up sequence photos to the contrary...

It's more open than most, yes. But it's also more vertical than most. All down the line pictures of him where you can catch a frame slightly post impact you'll notice his right shoulder very low and left shoulder very high. You'll see a lot of pictures of Hogan post impact where his shoulders are already more horizontal, but that's a frame too late. I've found that previous frames (if available) of same swing post impact always shows a very low right shoulder and high left shoulder. It's just that Hogan stands up very early after impact, but this is after impact.

 

Physical or anatomical evidence is his extraordinary body extension of his left side. No way your shoulders could turn more horizontal with it

 

Isolating individual frames within a motion is folly. If you view it as an entire motion even in slow it's not vertical at all. His forward and side bend creates an illusion. Well left while keeping head behind it makes it impossible to have a high right shoulder but that's the beauty of getting left so early - shallows everything out and allows early rotation without any wait. A high right shoulder and flat shoulder rotation appearance in the frame you're talking about would lead to a very steep angle of attack.

I'm saying high left shoulder and low right shoulder past impact. He just stands up earlier than most because he'll fall over backwards (away from target) due to his extreme left side extension (right side bend).

It won't lead to a steep angle of attack because Hogan is coming from his slot really inside with very low hands

If you do what he says in the Life article it will keep the face open. For me it turns a draw into a push slice. If I need to really bend one right I will use the secret. I don't have the skill Hogan had to use it foe a slight fade.

Hogan had a really inside slot with low hands (shaft parallel before impact). Normally that means a shallow AoA but a really arched path. Hook path. He straightened that PATH with a vertical shoulder rotation from there to impact. The cup delayed the supination. The cup straightened the CLUBFACE and delayed or got the CLUBHEAD behind. If one doesn't have a slot as inside and as low as Hogan, the vertical shoulder rotation plus the cup is a path to right and clubface too square/open and clubhead way behind.

So I think the cup is more for the purpose of getting into his very inside and low hands slot. A flat left wrist on top would throw the clubhead out too early. Impossible to reach an inside a low slot with that

Sounds like it is the grip.

 

I have never understood why people make others larger than life and want to add some mystic potion that only they know. Hogan was a great player, nobody denies it. I think he pretty much describes his method in his book of lessons. Don't we all come to some revelation at some point on how to adjust our game, it is not unique. Again, he practiced his a** off, if you do it correctly you become repeatable.

 

Hogan's swing has been broken down by practically every swing expert there is. They haven't discovered a secret because there isn't one. No magic, just hard work and focus.

 

Also, there is no Santa Claus.

Yea, ok ... why am I not surprised that you could not deliver on the idea he had one night that worked the next day? Shame on me ... looks like I've been trolled. LOL.

BTW, Santa can be seen in just about any shopping mall in America as of today.

right hand works under the left not over it!

Exactly!

right hand works under the left not over it!

 

Exactly!

 

Is that the feel, or what happens?

right hand works under the left not over it!

 

Exactly!

 

Is that the feel, or what happens?

Left hand trying to rotate CCW through impact while right hand tries to maintain its CW winding ... the result is neutral on both sides. He set up the opposite windings at address to prevent fanning the club open in the takeaway and to give himself the range of motion to move into his impact windings, usually in transition.

Assuming you play right handed, grab a club using Hogan's address grip and turn your left hand CCW using the last three fingers while turning your right hand CW using the two middle fingers. Notice that the left wrist flattens or bows and the right wrist bends back. The last knuckle of the right pinkie pulls up hard against the middle knuckle of the left index finger ... that's why he set the right pinkie in the groove between the left index and middle fingers and pulled the left index finger back slightly from the other left hand fingers.

Feel or real ... probably some of both.

Below is an excerpt from George Peper's interview with Ben Hogan in the September of 1987 edition of Golf Magazine ...

 

HOGAN: Yes, years ago. When I first started on Tour, I had a terrible problem with a hook and I struggled constantly to learn to fade the ball. Finally, one day I said to myself, "Henny Bogan, you have got to go home and correct this. Otherwise you're never gonna make a living."

 

So I came home for two weeks and worked and thought about my game. I'll never forget, one night in bed I got an idea, something I might try. Well, I could barely wait for the sun to come up the next morning. Out I went to the practice tee and started trying out my theory. It worked. It worked all day long. And the next day. And the next day too.

 

So I said, I've got to take this out on Tour and put it under some pressure. The next week was the George May Tournament in Chicago—and in those days he had two events, back to back. A big field of players competed the first week, and then the top 12 from that tournament went on to play for big money the following week. Well, I went up there and won both of them.

 

GOLF: What was that inspiration?

 

HOGAN: I'm not telling (smiling).

 

GOLF: Did it relate to one of the fundamentals in your book, "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf"?

 

HOGAN: Yes, it did.

 

GOLF: It was the part about pronation and supination, wasn't it?

 

HOGAN: Well, yes it was, but it all gets back to the grip. You can't make those moves unless you have the proper hold on the club. It's like steering an automobile. You don't steer to the right all the time, you also steer to the left. That ability has to come from the grip, which is the transformer through which the juice flows.

Don't forget he went from the long thumb to the short thumb in his left hand about this time as well.

Below is an excerpt from George Peper's interview with Ben Hogan in the September of 1987 edition of Golf Magazine ...

 

HOGAN: Yes, years ago. When I first started on Tour, I had a terrible problem with a hook and I struggled constantly to learn to fade the ball. Finally, one day I said to myself, "Henny Bogan, you have got to go home and correct this. Otherwise you're never gonna make a living."

 

So I came home for two weeks and worked and thought about my game. I'll never forget, one night in bed I got an idea, something I might try. Well, I could barely wait for the sun to come up the next morning. Out I went to the practice tee and started trying out my theory. It worked. It worked all day long. And the next day. And the next day too.

 

So I said, I've got to take this out on Tour and put it under some pressure. The next week was the George May Tournament in Chicago—and in those days he had two events, back to back. A big field of players competed the first week, and then the top 12 from that tournament went on to play for big money the following week. Well, I went up there and won both of them.

 

GOLF: What was that inspiration?

 

HOGAN: I'm not telling (smiling).

 

GOLF: Did it relate to one of the fundamentals in your book, "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf"?

 

HOGAN: Yes, it did.

 

GOLF: It was the part about pronation and supination, wasn't it?

 

HOGAN: Well, yes it was, but it all gets back to the grip. You can't make those moves unless you have the proper hold on the club. It's like steering an automobile. You don't steer to the right all the time, you also steer to the left. That ability has to come from the grip, which is the transformer through which the juice flows.

 

Don't forget he went from the long thumb to the short thumb in his left hand about this time as well.

He actually went to the modified short left thumb right after he got out of the service in 1945. It makes pulling the left index finger back possible or easier and also encourages the right hand to rest higher on the handle.

IMO, Hogans Secret was not fabricated or manufactured, but a mere glimpse into how the hands/grip work, and effect the club head through the ball.

Just as a steering wheel is a 360 degree dial that steers the wheels, so is the ability of the hands and wrists, working as one, to steer the club face through impact.

Just my .02 cents there as swinging anything should be as easy swinging weight in a circle with your hands.

IMO, Hogans Secret was not fabricated or manufactured, but a mere glimpse into how the hands/grip work, and effect the club head through the ball.

Just as a steering wheel is a 360 degree dial that steers the wheels, so is the ability of the hands and wrists, working as one, to steer the club face through impact.

Just my .02 cents there as swinging anything should be as easy swinging weight in a circle with your hands.

Sorry, Mark, I don't agree. If the hands rotate together in the same direction, what insures that they rotate just the right amount to square at the moment of impact ... afraid that's the pre-secret timing dependent recipe.

But if the right hand is trying to maintain its CW winding through impact, it is prevented from rotating axially CCW along with the left in the direction of the pivot. Totally counterintuitive!