Hogan's Shoulder Turn

I've observed that Hogan's left shoulder turns really early and down. His shoulder stops or finishes the backswing early also, and by the time it stops, his left arm, hands and club still moves a bit going to the top.

I think this is a key to his transition. This way he can already move his hips (physically imposible to turn hips while shoulder is moving back), while the arms, hnds and club are given the opportunity to set themselves up.

Is this observation valid?

It is physically possible to turn hips whilst shoulder is turning back, talking about solely the actual shoulder socket. I think most top players do. But actual significant dissociation of the two is difficult and probably risking injury. It's definitely possible to turn back if in the shoulder you include the movement of the scapula and some movement of the arms elevating and abducting and adducting. I don't know if it is a 'key' to his transition or just the way he does it. I think it is a key element if you want to replicate it exactly though, i.e. 'Going in two directions at once'.

My latest thoughts about the motion of the shoulders. (drum roll!!!!)

1. the idea that the shoulders turn at 90* to the spine back and through is so wrong and so destructive.

2. the right shoulder stays "inside" the left shoulder until after impact.

3. Address the ball with the right shoulder slightly inside the left in relation to target line as per Hogan.

4. Through impact the right shoulder stays under and inside the chin.

5. Its much easier to do if you swing very upright like Dustin Johnson but you can see the difficult to do athletic body positions he has to achieve.

6. When swinging left arm flatter there is a "natural" tendency for the right shoulder to come out if you don't set it inside and keep it inside through the swing to impact.

i think this is why the 1 plane swing thing seems more difficult than just swinging up and down.

If you stand and do a "deep" flatter turn with your shoulders and arms then turn back on same plane it doesn't work,

the arms and club are forced way out off the shaft plane.

Keeping the right shoulder inside from take-away to impact solves all these problems and the club will not be "stuck".

I think the use of the term "steepening" as a negative thing should be stopped. It should be an ideal. It's a positive thing. It bring so many positive effects that it is used as a last resort thru impact by people doing negative things before impact zone. A steep shoulder turn will get the clubhead travel straighter (less curved) thru impact.

So I agree with your observations Pinsplitter. But I think it would help more if we think left shoulder higher (rather than right shoulder inside or lower). This would be more exact, because left shoulder is where the club is attached or nearer.

Maybe this is why Hogan said "you've got to do it with the left arm", with emphasis to Nick Seitz. This way, we can have just one thought too.

Re your 1 plane comments, Pinsplitter, I understand the 1 plane swing adopts a more vertical shoulder turn, with the left arm lower and on same plane with shoulders on top. A 2 plane swing adopts a flatter shoulder turn, but the left arm is higher than shoulder line. Incidentally, I think a 1 plane swing works only if you adopt a 2-plane procedure. I'm serious ?

It is physically possible to turn hips whilst shoulder is turning back, talking about solely the actual shoulder socket. I think most top players do. But actual significant dissociation of the two is difficult and probably risking injury. It's definitely possible to turn back if in the shoulder you include the movement of the scapula and some movement of the arms elevating and abducting and adducting. I don't know if it is a 'key' to his transition or just the way he does it. I think it is a key element if you want to replicate it exactly though, i.e. 'Going in two directions at once'.

Yes. Maybe that's why Hogan had to stop the left shoulder early, so he can try turning his hips while the arms, wrists and club still go on. To me it's impossible to actively turn the hips while still actively rotating the shoulders

two words "Carl Lohen"

My latest thoughts about the motion of the shoulders. (drum roll!!!!)

1. the idea that the shoulders turn at 90* to the spine back and through is so wrong and so destructive.

2. the right shoulder stays "inside" the left shoulder until after impact.

3. Address the ball with the right shoulder slightly inside the left in relation to target line as per Hogan.

4. Through impact the right shoulder stays under and inside the chin.

5. Its much easier to do if you swing very upright like Dustin Johnson but you can see the difficult to do athletic body positions he has to achieve.

6. When swinging left arm flatter there is a "natural" tendency for the right shoulder to come out if you don't set it inside and keep it inside through the swing to impact.

 

i think this is why the 1 plane swing thing seems more difficult than just swinging up and down.

If you stand and do a "deep" flatter turn with your shoulders and arms then turn back on same plane it doesn't work,

the arms and club are forced way out off the shaft plane.

Keeping the right shoulder inside from take-away to impact solves all these problems and the club will not be "stuck".

 

Agree very much. I think people should make extra effort to turn the shoulders more vertical. Both backswing and downswing. And I think this is where the Hogan plane can help very much. I think Hogan consciously thinks of the Hogan plane during the whole swing. He's right, I think, in saying that it will help tremendously in a more consistent swing.

Hogan is well known for a very low hands top of the backswing position, or what man calls "flat" swing (I think it should be called a "low" hands swing). But his actual swing is never "flat". In fact it is very steep. It's just that his hands very low on top.

Now look at his shoulders, moves very steep, both in backswing and downswing. Look at how low his left shoulder moves early, and how low it is on top of the swing. Same thing on the right shoulder, moves very low (below the chin) through impact.

And look at his hands, moves very steep too, both in backswing and downswing. Look at how very close his hands are to his body (look at his hands relative to his shoulders; don't be fooled by the distance of his hands on his stomach, he has no stomach, he's very thin). Then look at how his hands-close-to-body move from address to the low-hands-position at the top. Looks steep too to me

I have been having good luck following hogans advice to reverse every natural instinct and have a near perfect swing. With the shoulders the instinct i had was turn the shoulders over near the right foot. the reverse is to turn over the left foot. In five lessons he confirms this goal in the backswing in the hip diagrams. His shoulder is turned a few inches inside his left hip