Ulnar deviation of wrists at setup is a major determinant of swing plane.

Bottom Line:

Add some ulnar deviation (of your wrist) at setup for a more upright swing plane.

Add some radial deviation at setup for a flatter swing plane.

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What is ulnar deviation ?

Try casting a fishing rod with just your wrist (no arm)

- Pulling the rod back is radial deviation.

- Casting the rod is ulnar deviation.

(or you can think of a hammer).

Visually,

When you are looking down at your forearms while gripping a club.... one way to think of the forearm muscles is that the muscles on the top of your forearms are the radial muscles and the muscles underneath are the ulnar muscles.

Adding some ulnar deviation at setup activates the "ulnar" muscles (and relaxes the radial muscles). The distribution of forearm muscle activation has very powerful impacts on your elbow (ie. the angle between your upper arm and forearm). Ulnar deviation at the wrist (mostly of the right wrist) helps keep the right elbow straight in the golf swing by activating the ulnar muscles and this POWERFULLY promotes a more upright swing plane.

Have you ever heard of the idea that you want to keep your right elbow straighter longer in the backswing to prevent the club from getting sucked too inside ?

Well, this grip setup tweak all but guarantees you keeping your right elbow straighter longer.

Please try it and let me know what you think !

Enjoy,

SunkTheBirdie.

Update - February 24, 2017

- this idea seems most effective (to me, so far) for a golfer with a weaker grip on the club.

- it is harder to "grip a club with more ulnar deviation" when your grip is stronger ?

- as well, a stronger grip seems to mimic this effect anyway ? (maybe)

I also think that part of the reason why ulnar deviation at setup encourages a more upright plane is that when I try to add ulnar deviation to my right hand .... my right elbow gets a wee bit straighter ! No wonder it keeps my right elbow straighter longer !

To feel this effect try this procedure.

- no club.

- take a good golf stance, hands and arms are hanging straight down (palms together) - Take a few 10 to 2 movements back and forth and feel it.

- now setup as you did before, but this time maximally c0ck your wrists (radial deviation)... now Take a few 10 to 2 movements back and forth and feel it.

Q: did you feel your right shoulder turning too flat ?

Q: did you feel your right elbow get crazy deep crazy quick ?

Now you know the effect !

I do ulnar but not to an extreme, mild ulnar of wrists with toe of club slightly off ground works ideal for me.

Whats your definition of swing plane and changing it?

If you are considering swing plane as the plane the shaft is on at address or elbows than... of course it changes it, regardless of lie of club, you're changing this swing plane at address. However I don't think it's altering the plane on the downswing.

Whats your definition of swing plane and changing it?

 

If you are considering swing plane as the plane the shaft is on at address or elbows than... of course it changes it, regardless of lie of club, you're changing this swing plane at address.

Sure.

However I don't think it's altering the plane on the downswing.

I'll say it can.

Mostly because it gets me to a better top of swing position where there is good width and the hands aren't trapped behind the body.

But you are right. A good backswing can be ruined.

Not many people are ulnar deviated (uncocked) at setup. And being uncocked at setup and in the takeaway will encourage a more narrow arm swing in the backswing. If wrist are uncocked in the takeaway the golfer will over fold he trail arm in order to get club working up. Having wrist cocked early would make it easier to keep arms wilder in the backswing.

Not many people are ulnar deviated (uncocked) at setup.

Uncocked sounds like a position of extreme. I meant that if you add a bit of ulnar deviation to your current setup, it promotes a more upright swing plane. I didn't mean to setup with maximal ulnar deviation.

And being uncocked at setup and in the takeaway will encourage a more narrow arm swing in the backswing. If wrist are uncocked in the takeaway the golfer will over fold he trail arm in order to get club working up. Having wrist cocked early would make it easier to keep arms wilder in the backswing.

Thanks iteach. More narrow would be a disaster. When I do it I find I can't even get my right elbow to 90 degrees !

So My feel is just the opposite !

Increasing the ulnar deviation at the wrist (mostly of the right wrist) helps keep the right elbow straight by activating the ulnar muscles and this POWERFULLY promotes a more upright swing plane.

I am going to change the red to this.

Anyone try it ? How does it feel to you ?

I don't think ulnar deviation has a direct connection to elbow extension dude. Isn't it just increased arm tension radiates to triceps?

You mean like this?

im lost

I don't think ulnar deviation has a direct connection to elbow extension dude. Isn't it just increased arm tension radiates to triceps?

What I am saying is that forearm tension that radiates to the triceps, delays / reduces bending of the right elbow.

And to that, I'll add it significantly reduces the length of your swing.

You mean like this?

 

Yes.

And No.

I am talking about very subtle differences that wouldn't easily be seen on camera.

That guys hands are too far from his body.

I firmly believe the arms should hang straight down from the shoulders (where club length (and golfer height)permits).

im lost

Now I'm sad.

Ask questions if you want. My idea could be incorrect. I will try to summarize what I learn later. Pending iteach teaching me where I'm "right" or "wrong". :). Of course there are not many real rights or wrongs in golf. You more aim for things that are true in as many situations as possible.

I know for me it's bad to try and set any specific angle in the hands at address away from where they are comfortable.

If I do something like that it hinders my ability to start my swing correctly.

As far as a good position at the top I find my position at the top changes based on which direction I take the club away.

For me the takeaway is very important because for me it dictates the top position. I don't actively do much except allow the momentum I put into the club in the takeaway to move the club to the top.

When I am on course after the take away is done my only focus is swinging through the ball towards the target.

If I become conscious of any specific location of a body part in the bs or as the club changes direction I am toast.

For me once the club is set in motion it's a cascading series of events and it's dynamic.

Couldn't really tell you what my body does after takeaway.

The only way I know that is from watching video. For the most part I worry about it very little.

So that's what I like and what I like to do.

Ymmv

 

That guys hands are too far from his body.

I firmly believe the arms should hang straight down from the shoulders (where club length (and golfer height)permits).

 

Hogan is a textbook example of ulnar deviation at address and he's as flat as there is. Not sure there's a strong correlation.

Couldn't really tell you what my body does after takeaway.

That's a good spot to be.

Moe

Couldn't really tell you what my body does after takeaway.

That's a good spot to be.

 

Moe

 

 

Maybe someone could find it. I saw an interview with a multiple major winner and he said I don't want to know what I am doing.

This mirrors the words of the second best pro I know personally who has made it a point NEVER to watch his swing on video.

He said if he saw it it would be bad for his game.

Hogan is a textbook example of ulnar deviation at address and he's as flat as there is. Not sure there's a strong correlation.

He was short.

You can only be as upright as your height and club length allows. :)

Interesting.

In fact among the 'cool' young hot shots in my area for a while a few years ago it was a big debate amongst them. To look or not to look.

In fact I almost wish I had chosen never to look.

Maybe someone could find it. I saw an interview with a multiple major winner and he said I don't want to know what I am doing.

This mirrors the words of the second best pro I know personally who has made it a point NEVER to watch his swing on video.

He said if he saw it it would be bad for his game.

Experts benefit from an internal focus for optimal performance.

Learners ? Trying to improve their swing ? I dont buy it.

If anyone has any links about ulnar deviation and it's role in the swing please post them here.

:)

People fight what I am talking about because they are very ego driven.

Their ego strives for control at every moment in all aspects of their life. Often very successful people are like this however imo this type of mindset of control is a HUGE hindrance to athletic performance.

In golf there's a point where we give up control to gain control.

It's just the nature of the swing.

Jackie Burke said there's a certain recklessness to good golf and in a certain sense I agree.

Maybe someone could find it. I saw an interview with a multiple major winner and he said I don't want to know what I am doing.

This mirrors the words of the second best pro I know personally who has made it a point NEVER to watch his swing on video.

He said if he saw it it would be bad for his game.

Experts benefit from an internal focus for optimal performance.

Learners ? Trying to improve their swing ? I dont buy it.

 

Again wrong.

Here's one which I think was lifted directly from Golf Digest:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233903127_Wrist_kinematics_during_the_golf_swing_is_flexion_or_ulnar_deviation_more_important

Here's one which I think was lifted directly from Golf Digest:

 

https://www.research..._more_important

Cool link - Thanks !

International Journal of Golf Science, 2012, 1 (Suppl.) S49

The aim of the current study is to assess the individual influences of flexion and ulnar deviation of the right wrist in producing club-head velocity in the golf drive.

 

I'm not interested in speed per se (what the article focuses on) , I'm interested in setting up with a bit more tension in the ulnar muscles and how that influences the swing. As well, I'm not sure if setting up with increased ulnar deviation gives you more or less flexion of the wrists at the top of swing.

I think the bottom line is that some people could use ulnar deviation at setup to more easily work through some common swing faults (like sucking the club too far inside on the takeaway).

On the flip side, golfers who have trouble achieving a deep shoulder turn could probably benefit from a little more radial deviation at setup.

I'd call both of these tweaks "setup triggers" that help us move the club from A to B in a (potentially) more efficient manner.

I think the bottom line is that some people could use ulnar deviation at setup to more easily work through some common swing faults (like sucking the club too far inside on the takeaway).

That's exactly what I am saying.

I actually had that in the OP, but deleted it to make the OP shorter.

On the flip side, golfers who have trouble achieving a deep shoulder turn could probably benefit from a little more radial deviation at setup.

 

I'd call both of these tweaks "setup triggers" that help us move the club from A to B in a (potentially) more efficient manner.

So, what do you think ?

FOR YOU, does adding a bit of ulnar deviation at the wrist give you a feeling of a more vertical or flatter swing plane ?

You can set up your trail wrist how you like at setup it's no guarantee of anything once the motion starts. People can do all kinds of things with their wrists once in motion and they do!

You can set up your trail wrist how you like at setup it's no guarantee of anything once the motion starts. People can do all kinds of things with their wrists once in motion and they do!

Of course !

This could all be influenced by how I do my takeaway. Forinstance, I have a neutral grip and I like to think of the initial takeaway as the back of my right hand moving straight back

what's a neutral grip?

what's a neutral grip?

2.5 knuckle. Hands parallel to each other.