Phil's Gambling Debts

http://nypost.com/20...-gambling-debt/

Anyone see that Phil paid off $2M in gambling debts to Billy Walters in 2012? That articles stated that that was only about five percent of his income for that year, but that still seems like a lot. I don't gamble so I'd like to post this question to those who do:

In your opinion, what percentage of your income can you reasonably wager (and lose) before gambling transitions from a hobby or pastime to a problem?

I'd say it's probably somewhere around 5% but, again, I'm not a gambler, nor am I wealthy (by first world standards) so a much smaller percentage of my spending is discretionary (not food, shelter, clothing, utilities).

P.S., I didn't throw out the term "addiction" because I admittedly know little about the psychology of addiction. I assume you could wager very little of your income and still present addictive tendencies.

Gambling $10 is no different than spending $10 on a movie. It's just entertainment. When you start putting your financial wellbeing at risk, that's when it's an issue. 2M may just be beer money to Phil.

Even better its actually closer to 4% (1.95 out of 48) which is nothing to Phil.

If its a normal Joe that has bills and a mortgage and credit card bills, 4% of your income for discretionary entertainment still seems like nothing.

Gambling $10 is no different than spending $10 on a movie. It's just entertainment. When you start putting your financial wellbeing at risk, that's when it's an issue. 2M may just be beer money to Phil.

agree.... Its a slippery topic as alot of people have a real problem and they gamble away their last dime ... same as alot cannot drink without getting drunk.... I have to catch myself at times from demonizing all drinkers as "drunks".... and likewise we shouldnt judge all gamblers as "people with a problem".... Phil can afford it ..therefore its his business and not a problem.... im sure some years hes UP $2mil or more.... it usually evens out... just like your $5 skins game ... some weeks i pay.. some weeks i get paid... its paying for entertainment ..thats all

Last week Charles Barkley reported that Michael Jordan routinely has hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line in a round of golf.

Those guys play in a different financial universe than you and I.

And btw, a 5% loss of 48M is felt less than 5% of $40,000.

Gambling against Billy Walters is like chasing fool's gold. Now there is someone to nominate for "most interesting man in the world."

I've worked in the poker space for over a decade and I've met people of all walks of life (many professional poker players).

Everyone has a different threshold for gambling and risk of ruin. It's a combination of various factors from personal make-up, point in your life, ability to go broke and stay in action, etc. Some people are willing to put 50% of their net worth on the line in a single session of poker while others refuse to move up in stakes even if they appear to be heavy favorites to win in higher stakes games.

Speaking on the world of pro poker, I'd bet 3/4s of pro poker players went broke atleast once in their careers (many several times) and built themselves and their bankrolls back up.

Here's an interesting interview with pro poker player Bryn Kenney who talks about winning millions and going broke several times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBThsZFaAuk

The professional gambling / poker world is a crazy world that would literally make the normal people of society's jaws drop at some of the stories.

If it doesn't sting when you lose, or matter when you win, it's not really worth the effort. I'm not a gambler, myself, because I can't take the sting.

And btw, a 5% loss of 48M is felt less than 5% of $40,000.

Hence my caveat about my income. The question is an individual question. I want to know what each WRXer's personal threshold is.

What is Phil pulling like $50M/year every year before he puts a peg in the ground? This is like the argument for or against progressive taxation. I would imagine losing $20M a year in that bracket would only be noticed by his accountant, broker and banker. Wouldn't sniff his lifestyle.

"T-Bills" earn 5%....Mickelson clan are Kings for generations

What is Phil pulling like $50M/year every year before he puts a peg in the ground? This is like the argument for or against progressive taxation. I would imagine losing $20M a year in that bracket would only be noticed by his accountant, broker and banker. Wouldn't sniff his lifestyle.

 

"T-Bills" earn 5%....Mickelson clan are Kings for generations

10 year Treasury Bill rate is like 2.4%

Some interesting comments here. His own business but

1. When they quoted his $48M income, I read that as gross......after taxes, expenses (jets etc), his net is a lot lower. Meaning that $1M+ is not just couch change

2. The guy definitely has a problem. If he is in to one fellow for over $1M (and that is just one snapshot in time), you think he isn't also laying wagers elsewhere?

3. The house always wins (yes, I know Mr Walters is not a casino, but pretty sure the odds are stacked in his favour, like with any bookie)

4. Could there be worse timing for all this? And did he actually think this would just quietly go away? I had been bullish on his chances next week, but this distraction can't help.

5. See #2

Last week Charles Barkley reported that Michael Jordan routinely has hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line in a round of golf.

 

Those guys play in a different financial universe than you and I.

When I played out at Big Horn in Palm Springs one of the caddies said MJ and a famous poker player were playing 100k a hole. Just like you said, its all relative. To these guys its just fun, to me, I'm having a heart attack.

These guys are gambling on a different scale than most of us, although there's a lot of truth in the earlier comment that 2% of $50m affects you less than 2% of $40k!

I was in a casino in Tunica, MS several years back and a buddy was sitting at a poker table when John Daly sat down. He was playing pretty high stakes (as far as I'm concerned anyway) and wound up winning just over $260k in a quick few hours. My buddy asked him casually about the amount he was wagering and Daly said it wasn't worth him to play if the win didn't excite him or he the loss piss him off. We talked to the pit boss later and were told that Daly came that night to our casino from another where he'd just lost $245k. Overall not a bad night to net $15k for him, although my buddy didn't fare nearly as well!

If you don't gamble you're not going to understand it. Just like if you don't drink you're not going to understand a guy's struggle with alcohol.

A guy who is a particular straight arrow that I play with was saying, "he could lose $1.8 million, oh my gosh." About the $100k a hole bets. I tried to tell him it's just like one of our games that if it's a $20 Nassau it's rare someone loses $40. They're using their handicaps and pushing a lot of holes. I'd guess if someone lost $500k that would be pretty unusual, like losing a match 5 and 4, doesn't happen much. Most match play results are 2up, 1up, 2 and 1.

Good point Matt J

You can't demonize people with addictions in any area of their life. Everyone is different and not everyone reacts the same as yourself under certain stimuli

Pills, booze, sex, gambling, etc etc

Gambling losses are only half the story, what about gambling winnings ?

For many its a hobby, and if you are into any stocks or 401K etc... then

You too, are gambling !

I'll bet if you ask Phil he'd tell you that he's won more than he's lost... even if he hasn't. But, he's a very analytical guy and I'm sure he's got it figured out. Win some, lose some... he's a guy that enjoys the juice in competing at a high level and gambling allows him to artificially create that juice.

I don't bet anymore, mainly because when I lost, I realized I was taking away money I could have used on my kids. They mean a lot more to me than any potential payout.

Here's a question does phils gambling affect any one of us? Just like Floyd mayweather stupid spending eventually if it's a problem they will be mike Tyson broke and or like john daly .

As for gambling phil in college had bad gambling habits that never left him just got larger, to the point that that speculation of him switching to Calloway was so they pay some debts in vegas off . Some say fact some say fiction

The number is why this is a headline, but I doubt Phil even blinks when he pays out this amount gambling. It's entertainment, same as going to a concert or a game in my book.

Also, John Daly was on The Pat McAfee Show (barstool sports) this week and talked about his gambling, sounded like all time he's down about $42M. Great interview for anyone who's a JD fan, he did the call during a practice round which was also cool.

None of anyone's biz but Phil's. That's a small portion of what he makes. I know guys who lose a MUCH larger % of their income on the tables.....and that still is their decision

You have to figure out which Michael McDermott you are. Are you the delivery route driver saving your cash ... or all in with your 3-stacks of high society vs. KGB?

I don't get it, seems like a waste of time and money. I know some enjoy it as entertainment or a hobby but it seems to destroy many lives and families.

For Phil? Guy is a money machine, gambling six and even seven figures must be like most people betting a few thousand or 10 grand. Enough to make it very interesting but not going to kill you if you lose.

Last time I gambled was a bachelor party. Got lucky and won a few hundred playing dollar slots right away. Ended up giving it to the idiot groom who lost it all in craps. How the hell craps works, I don't know. But at one point this total pimp went to be shooter. Had ladies and everything. He was killing it and I told my friend to bet it all with this guy but he bet too small. Made a few bucks but then lost it all.

You know what they say,

Vegas is a town built by losers/

Gambling losses are only half the story, what about gambling winnings ?

For many its a hobby, and if you are into any stocks or 401K etc... then

You too, are gambling !

Some interesting comments here. His own business but

1. When they quoted his $48M income, I read that as gross......after taxes, expenses (jets etc), his net is a lot lower. Meaning that $1M+ is not just couch change

2. The guy definitely has a problem. If he is in to one fellow for over $1M (and that is just one snapshot in time), you think he isn't also laying wagers elsewhere?

3. The house always wins (yes, I know Mr Walters is not a casino, but pretty sure the odds are stacked in his favour, like with any bookie)

4. Could there be worse timing for all this? And did he actually think this would just quietly go away? I had been bullish on his chances next week, but this distraction can't help.

5. See #2

And how would one know that he has not won a pile elsewhere. You saying the guy "definitely has a problem" is your opinion and nothing more.

Pretty much adds to my opinion of Phil. Really smart or really stupid to be good at golf. Which one is he?

People wanna pee their money away so be it. I do think it is as irresponsible of a thing a human can do...house always wins.