Rants and Raves...

So our local girl Lexi Thompson gets cheated out of her win. Viewers should not be Rules Officials! Two stroke penalty for misplacing her ball... fine. B.S., but whatever. Two more stroke penalty because she signed for an incorrect score she didn't know was incorrect, wasn't incorrect at the time because the first 2 stroke penalty hadn't been assessed... Are You F'n Kidding ME!?! PGA & LPGA better get their sh*t together!

Yes, I'm P.O.'d! No wonder our Game is dying. Can you imagine someone new to the game watching this crap?

So you can lose for something that happened the day before because a viewer saw something the rules officials there didn't call?

Who would want to play a stupid game like that!?!

Yup! We've got the inmates running the asylum! :wacko:

Completely ridiculous. Would be like Joe Blow calling in to the Super Bowl and saying someone was offsides. Total joke. This situation is even worse than what happened to DJ last year.

So our local girl Lexi Thompson gets cheated out of her win. Viewers should not be Rules Officials! Two stroke penalty for misplacing her ball... fine. B.S., but whatever. Two more stroke penalty because she signed for an incorrect score she didn't know was incorrect, wasn't incorrect at the time because the first 2 stroke penalty hadn't been assessed... Are You F'n Kidding ME!?! PGA & LPGA better get their sh*t together!

Yes, I'm P.O.'d! No wonder our Game is dying. Can you imagine someone new to the game watching this crap?

So you can lose for something that happened the day before because a viewer saw something the rules officials there didn't call?

Who would want to play a stupid game like that!?!

Just because the USGA and R&A THINK that ALL golfers are LADIES and GENTLEMEN on the course maybe, they should stop worrying about the INSIGNIFICANT occurrences and start focusing on what is TRULY hurting the game of golf...for it is not, rules infringement.

Nuttier than squirrel poo.

All agreed. They were looking for the best golfer and did she play best? Yes she blooming well did.

Now, rules are rules. Rules officials are around and there should be a statute of limitations for the end of the round. Their word should be final if they see something. If they don't, they don't!

Cricket umpires make decisions in live action, right and wrong, and can refer to the television official themselves or teams can challenge. Rugby, the referee can refer to linesmen or the video referee. You can watch the replays yourself and rage about the decisions, but the game is done.

They do ask the television people for where balls cross hazards and stuff, why not ask during the round if there is a suspicion? Official with each match, right? They should be watching for infringements not just there as a walking rulebook. If they think the ball isn't in the right place, say so before they hit the shot, before they sign the card, before they go to bed.

I'm sure she wouldn't have minded being told as a professional. Least worst option.

There are enough examples of players calling penalties on themselves, let honour prevail, real-time referees not just rules officials and pull the 'phones out of the wall.

I wonder if it will take a lawsuit from a competitor to end the lunacy of the "TV viewer as referee" phenomenon. Until every shot from every competitor for the entire tournament is recorded and scrutinized, no competitor should ever be singled out by video, whether by rules official or couch potato. Why subject those playing the best in a tournament to a different standard than the rest of the field? Patently unfair IMO

Maybe this is the answer to the slow play problem. Other sports think this looks ludicrous because other sports are played and adjudicated in real time, not golf time. Make all cheques and trophies non-returnable once issued and competitors should be encouraged to get it round and collect their winnings before some armchair pedant phones in their infractions.

Has gone a bit mad. Like drugs tests. I think some British athlete has recently been awarded the bronze medal from a World Championship in 2008 or something mad like that. Must have had half a mind to tell them to shove it up their 400 metre hurdles.

Has gone a bit mad. Like drugs tests. I think some British athlete has recently been awarded the bronze medal from a World Championship in 2008 or something mad like that. Must have had half a mind to tell them to shove it up their 400 metre hurdles.

It's situations such as this that make me reflect on the whole Lance Armstrong fiasco. A whole decade of results were essentially wiped clean in professional cycling with the spoils eventually doled out to the highest placed competitor that didn't get caught or implicated in the various doping scandals of the period. A complete sham really when you consider that PED's in isolation do not create a world class athlete, let alone a champion.

Maybe, just maybe, Lance was the right winner at the right time within a sport so riddled with corruption and doping. Not only did he grow the sport beyond its traditional Eurocentric roots, but he did tremendous good in promoting cancer awareness, funding research and providing inspiration to those battling the dreaded disease. Now he's just a pariah that the righteous do-gooders want to crucify on the cross.

Now this is an extreme example, but it does help to high light the double standards to which we hold others accountable to. Lots have been stripped of results for infinitesimal readings that amount to reasonable doubt in the real world, but not the artificial world that is sport. When over-the-counter cold medications can get you banned, we're standing on a pretty slippery slope. But ah yes, there is the Therapeutic Use Exemption which is just another way of saying special treatment for special people. It's a mad, mad world...

Has gone a bit mad. Like drugs tests. I think some British athlete has recently been awarded the bronze medal from a World Championship in 2008 or something mad like that. Must have had half a mind to tell them to shove it up their 400 metre hurdles.

 

It's situations such as this that make me reflect on the whole Lance Armstrong fiasco. A whole decade of results were essentially wiped clean in professional cycling with the spoils eventually doled out to the highest placed competitor that didn't get caught or implicated in the various doping scandals of the period. A complete sham really when you consider that PED's in isolation do not create a world class athlete, let alone a champion.

 

Maybe, just maybe, Lance was the right winner at the right time within a sport so riddled with corruption and doping. Not only did he grow the sport beyond its traditional Eurocentric roots, but he did tremendous good in promoting cancer awareness, funding research and providing inspiration to those battling the dreaded disease. Now he's just a pariah that the righteous do-gooders want to crucify on the cross.

 

Now this is an extreme example, but it does help to high light the double standards to which we hold others accountable to. Lots have been stripped of results for infinitesimal readings that amount to reasonable doubt in the real world, but not the artificial world that is sport. When over-the-counter cold medications can get you banned, we're standing on a pretty slippery slope. But ah yes, there is the Therapeutic Use Exemption which is just another way of saying special treatment for special people. It's a mad, mad world...

Don't forget about the whole Sheryl Crow relationship...

Has gone a bit mad. Like drugs tests. I think some British athlete has recently been awarded the bronze medal from a World Championship in 2008 or something mad like that. Must have had half a mind to tell them to shove it up their 400 metre hurdles.

 

It's situations such as this that make me reflect on the whole Lance Armstrong fiasco. A whole decade of results were essentially wiped clean in professional cycling with the spoils eventually doled out to the highest placed competitor that didn't get caught or implicated in the various doping scandals of the period. A complete sham really when you consider that PED's in isolation do not create a world class athlete, let alone a champion.

 

Maybe, just maybe, Lance was the right winner at the right time within a sport so riddled with corruption and doping. Not only did he grow the sport beyond its traditional Eurocentric roots, but he did tremendous good in promoting cancer awareness, funding research and providing inspiration to those battling the dreaded disease. Now he's just a pariah that the righteous do-gooders want to crucify on the cross.

 

Now this is an extreme example, but it does help to high light the double standards to which we hold others accountable to. Lots have been stripped of results for infinitesimal readings that amount to reasonable doubt in the real world, but not the artificial world that is sport. When over-the-counter cold medications can get you banned, we're standing on a pretty slippery slope. But ah yes, there is the Therapeutic Use Exemption which is just another way of saying special treatment for special people. It's a mad, mad world...

 

Don't forget about the whole Sheryl Crow relationship...

I know that they dated, but I'm not really up on the details of their relationship. I'm curious as to how that is germane to the gist of my argument.

Has gone a bit mad. Like drugs tests. I think some British athlete has recently been awarded the bronze medal from a World Championship in 2008 or something mad like that. Must have had half a mind to tell them to shove it up their 400 metre hurdles.

 

It's situations such as this that make me reflect on the whole Lance Armstrong fiasco. A whole decade of results were essentially wiped clean in professional cycling with the spoils eventually doled out to the highest placed competitor that didn't get caught or implicated in the various doping scandals of the period. A complete sham really when you consider that PED's in isolation do not create a world class athlete, let alone a champion.

 

Maybe, just maybe, Lance was the right winner at the right time within a sport so riddled with corruption and doping. Not only did he grow the sport beyond its traditional Eurocentric roots, but he did tremendous good in promoting cancer awareness, funding research and providing inspiration to those battling the dreaded disease. Now he's just a pariah that the righteous do-gooders want to crucify on the cross.

 

Now this is an extreme example, but it does help to high light the double standards to which we hold others accountable to. Lots have been stripped of results for infinitesimal readings that amount to reasonable doubt in the real world, but not the artificial world that is sport. When over-the-counter cold medications can get you banned, we're standing on a pretty slippery slope. But ah yes, there is the Therapeutic Use Exemption which is just another way of saying special treatment for special people. It's a mad, mad world...

 

Don't forget about the whole Sheryl Crow relationship...

 

I know that they dated, but I'm not really up on the details of their relationship. I'm curious as to how that is germane to the gist of my argument.

Rumors have swirled that SHE knew about what he was doing and may have been the one that got him investigated. I'm not trying to be a rumor mill here, I'm just mentioning what's been talked about for years.

Well there certainly were lots that testified. A bit of a witch hunt really when you consider the number that provided testimony in exchange for immunity. His very existence made a lot of careers, not the least of which included the prosecutor! It's easy to be cynical about this because it was never about the cheating, it was only about the money.

Remember decent rulings not costing people majors?

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-08-11/sports/sp-825_1_nice-shot

Mental. Also biased to the people being filmed and shown on coverage most? Just very sad that this happens in the game we love.

We need to know before an event is finished. Did anyone break the rules? Were all the right decisions made? Is anyone on drugs? Obviously not as easy as this, but got to improve something in our game.

Rules officials need to be referees. There aren't that many rules to actually watch out for; teeing up behind the line, marking the ball properly, proper drops, not touching the sand in bunkers, watch all of this and call it out real time. If they don't see it, they don't see it. If they need video help, call it in like they do in rugby or cricket. Let the match behind through and get it right.

My rant of the day is the Masters needs to bring the top 60 or 72 in the world in ... let's get the field a little stronger to catch up a little to the other 3 majors

Just seen the marking footage. Ridiculous. Professional golfer you don't like? Just pick up the 'phone and dial 0800-PGA-NUTS.

Just seen the marking footage. Ridiculous. Professional golfer you don't like? Just pick up the 'phone and dial 0800-PGA-NUTS.

I'm going to have to sit in the minority camp on this one ... the only person at fault is Lexi for me ... marking a golf ball on a green properly is not a difficult thing to do ... to do what she did, mark the ball completely on the other side of her marker, can only be deliberate, especially at the speed at which it all happened. With the rules being what they are, I think she was very lucky she didn't get DQ'd, and that they gave her the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't intentional.

If she'd never missed a short putt ever, then OK you could argue "no advantage", but Lexi has a history of missing very short putts, some yes only a foot, and in my opinion she saw something on her line that she didn't like and marked in such a way that the line became something different that she preferred. We've all had putts like that ... patch of mud on the line, spike mark or ball in a slight depression etc etc. It's a tough break, but part of the game as it stands today ... you have to putt it from where it is .. not from a different position that takes the blemish, or doubt in your mind, out of it.

A year ago, her flaky short putting was discussed at length on the Golf Channel's Morning Drive. Here is the link: http://www.golfchann...ruggles-putter/

Nicole Castrale says at about 1 min 18 secs that some of the misses are a foot.

Her reaction to the ruling was very impressive - big stones to make the birdies to get herself into the play off. Yes a shame she didn't win, but s*** happens in life. I think she'll come through this just fine, and I highly doubt she'll ever mark a ball improperly again.

The episode does highlight that Pros need to be more vigilant on what their playing partners are doing when marking the ball. From what Mickelson was saying, this is sadly not a rare occurrence. I can only recall three main Tour players ever being pulled up for it ... Eliot Saltman, Chela Choi, and now Lexi.

The issue that only a few players are under the cameras is true, but no difference to what happens with motoring speeding offences in wider life. The rules are there, well known, and if you choose to break them and get caught then there are consequences. Though I must admit it did piss me off that last time I was booked for speeding and was sat in the Police car, that at least ten cars came by at speeds well in excess of what I had been doing :)

My first question is still, did the camera move? Anyone who ever watches viseos of golf swings knows that if the camera moves, analysis of all actions is then invalid.

My second thing is, she marked the ball from the side, and when replacing the ball, did she even look at the line? I don't think so. It was a tap in putt and she was just trying to quickly get it over to move on to the next hole. Suzann Pettersen made a comment in her after-round interview, that she originally thought Lexi was being warned for slow play, so if slow play warnings, or a reputation for slow play was known, Lexi likely tried to hurry, and carelessly put the ball down to quickly tap it in. Suzann was already off the green.

Too many assumptions of guilt to convict IMO.

Texsport

Just seen the marking footage. Ridiculous. Professional golfer you don't like? Just pick up the 'phone and dial 0800-PGA-NUTS.

 

I'm going to have to sit in the minority camp on this one ... the only person at fault is Lexi for me ... marking a golf ball on a green properly is not a difficult thing to do ... to do what she did, mark the ball completely on the other side of her marker, can only be deliberate, especially at the speed at which it all happened. With the rules being what they are, I think she was very lucky she didn't get DQ'd, and that they gave her the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't intentional.

 

If she'd never missed a short putt ever, then OK you could argue "no advantage", but Lexi has a history of missing very short putts, some yes only a foot, and in my opinion she saw something on her line that she didn't like and marked in such a way that the line became something different that she preferred. We've all had putts like that ... patch of mud on the line, spike mark or ball in a slight depression etc etc. It's a tough break, but part of the game as it stands today ... you have to putt it from where it is .. not from a different position that takes the blemish, or doubt in your mind, out of it.

 

A year ago, her flaky short putting was discussed at length on the Golf Channel's Morning Drive. Here is the link: http://www.golfchann...ruggles-putter/

 

Nicole Castrale says at about 1 min 18 secs that some of the misses are a foot.

 

Her reaction to the ruling was very impressive - big stones to make the birdies to get herself into the play off. Yes a shame she didn't win, but s*** happens in life. I think she'll come through this just fine, and I highly doubt she'll ever mark a ball improperly again.

 

The episode does highlight that Pros need to be more vigilant on what their playing partners are doing when marking the ball. From what Mickelson was saying, this is sadly not a rare occurrence. I can only recall three main Tour players ever being pulled up for it ... Eliot Saltman, Chela Choi, and now Lexi.

 

The issue that only a few players are under the cameras is true, but no difference to what happens with motoring speeding offences in wider life. The rules are there, well known, and if you choose to break them and get caught then there are consequences. Though I must admit it did piss me off that last time I was booked for speeding and was sat in the Police car, that at least ten cars came by at speeds well in excess of what I had been doing :)

The rule and the penalty are not what's in question here; it's how it was assessed and when it was assessed that is the issue. Your speeding analogy is poor because this infraction was not assessed by any on-site official or called by any of the competitors and it was not assessed in real time, taking almost 24 hours to inform her that she had been penalized. Furthermore the incorrect scorecard is a joke under these circumstances.

I get it. If you sign up to play competitive golf you agree with being scrutinized in this arbitrary manner. That's part of the game, but it doesn't make it right. The Tours and the governing bodies of golf can continue to stick their collective heads in the sand, but it's going to cost them!

Your speeding analogy is poor because this infraction was not assessed by any on-site official or called by any of the competitors and it was not assessed in real time, taking almost 24 hours to inform her that she had been penalized.

The point about the speeding analogy is about those who are "off watch" playing at the back of the field, who may be transgressing but get away with it because they aren't seen or caught by the TV cameras, or rules officials watching footage.

I do agree that there should be a time cut off for applying penalties, and that the rule about incorrect signing requires re-working ... I haven't seen anyone arguing about that across multiple threads !

Golf may be a little different to other sports in it's admirable posture to try and get the right decision, however it is arrived at, but I don't think there is anything wrong with that myself. Football for example drives me up the wall with all the poor refereeing decisions and unpunished player cheating that affect the outcome of games, and the far greater scope for manipulating a result. The sooner they bring video replays into that game the better !

I'm ok with video replays as long as one of the players in the group or a rules official asks for it BEFORE The Group starts playing the Next Hole!

The game needs to speed up, not slow down. Tradition is fine but all games Must evolve with the times as all other Major Sports have. The ruling should be very basic if an infraction hasn't been called by a playing partner or rules official before the group starts play on the following hole it can not be assessed. Each group of 4 players is allowed to question if a rules infraction has transpired and each group has a rules official present with it. That should be more than adequate. Viewers should never become officials. They sure don't in any other sport!

I'm ok with video replays as long as one of the players in the group or a rules official asks for it BEFORE The Group starts playing the Next Hole!

The game needs to speed up, not slow down. Tradition is fine but all games Must evolve with the times as all other Major Sports have. The ruling should be very basic if an infraction hasn't been called by a playing partner or rules official before the group starts play on the following hole it can not be assessed. Each group of 4 players is allowed to question if a rules infraction has transpired and each group has a rules official present with it. That should be more than adequate. Viewers should never become officials. They sure don't in any other sport!

Tim,

You are 110% correct! No other sport or game allows anybody not directly involved to call, write, text or email any rules official about a potential infraction. The "arm-chair" rules official has no right to say anything about what happens on the golf course. If need be, have 4 separate rules officials per group, 1 for each player.

End.of.rant.

Did not know there was prior and she is definitely at fault. The official bodies have the tightrope to walk between the rules and looking overly officious if that isn't an oxymoron for an official body.

Other players and the officials with the group do need to be on it. Will Lexi now ask the official to check every remarking? I might, just to make a point. Ask to see all the footage before you sign your card? Reducto ad abusrdium, but do need to think of consequences, intended and not.

I have played with people who definitely pinch a bit. Never said anything, because I'm English enough to be mortified by the thought.

Shouldn't need that as they have 4! Three other players who should be able to call infractions and one rules official. I'm not against your idea per say but it shouldn't be necessary. Regardless, I believe we are almost in unanimous agreement that the viewers need to be excluded from officiating in any way.

IMO the situation should have been dealt with as in the 1957 Open Championship. This is the summarised account of what happened when Bobby Locke transgressed.and was spotted on film after the event.

In fact, the main drama happened after the close of play when officials received notice that Locke had failed to return his marker to the correct spot after he moved it out of the way of his playing partner on the 18th green. He had holed the four-footer for a 3 and the Championship Committee decreed that no advantage had been gained and that the result, and his three-stroke victory, stood.

The R&A, for once, acted with class. The LPGA this time around,not so much. Golf can ill afford their pratfalls.

I like the idea of a championship referee being able to "play advantage", or rather rule that there was no material advantage gained and therefor no breach.

Better that than having strict liability for a ball that barely moves when you address it on a 14 stimp green in a gale. I also like the idea of a rule that basically tells the armchair rule nazi that they're being a fud, and will accordingly be ignored.

Just seen the marking footage. Ridiculous. Professional golfer you don't like? Just pick up the 'phone and dial 0800-PGA-NUTS.

 

I'm going to have to sit in the minority camp on this one ... the only person at fault is Lexi for me ... marking a golf ball on a green properly is not a difficult thing to do ... to do what she did, mark the ball completely on the other side of her marker, can only be deliberate, especially at the speed at which it all happened. With the rules being what they are, I think she was very lucky she didn't get DQ'd, and that they gave her the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't intentional.

 

If she'd never missed a short putt ever, then OK you could argue "no advantage", but Lexi has a history of missing very short putts, some yes only a foot, and in my opinion she saw something on her line that she didn't like and marked in such a way that the line became something different that she preferred. We've all had putts like that ... patch of mud on the line, spike mark or ball in a slight depression etc etc. It's a tough break, but part of the game as it stands today ... you have to putt it from where it is .. not from a different position that takes the blemish, or doubt in your mind, out of it.

 

A year ago, her flaky short putting was discussed at length on the Golf Channel's Morning Drive. Here is the link: http://www.golfchann...ruggles-putter/

 

Nicole Castrale says at about 1 min 18 secs that some of the misses are a foot.

 

Her reaction to the ruling was very impressive - big stones to make the birdies to get herself into the play off. Yes a shame she didn't win, but s*** happens in life. I think she'll come through this just fine, and I highly doubt she'll ever mark a ball improperly again.

 

The episode does highlight that Pros need to be more vigilant on what their playing partners are doing when marking the ball. From what Mickelson was saying, this is sadly not a rare occurrence. I can only recall three main Tour players ever being pulled up for it ... Eliot Saltman, Chela Choi, and now Lexi.

 

The issue that only a few players are under the cameras is true, but no difference to what happens with motoring speeding offences in wider life. The rules are there, well known, and if you choose to break them and get caught then there are consequences. Though I must admit it did piss me off that last time I was booked for speeding and was sat in the Police car, that at least ten cars came by at speeds well in excess of what I had been doing :)

Well said, Geoff. I will quibble with your theory a bit but you have some great points.

First of all, I agree that it's possible that she noticed a spike mark or irregularity of some sort and fudged it a millimeter or two to get around it. I have seen some very good players do the same in tournaments I have played in. I think it happens more often than anyone would ever imagine. I have never called anyone on this. Either I don't have the stones for it, or I saw no real compatetive advantage, since they are going to make the 18" putt 99.5 per cent of the time anyway. I am also playing in the Safeway Grocery Amateur Invitational so the stakes are...um, lower.

However, I have looked at the Lexi replay 15 times and she marks it so casually that it just doesn't seem deliberate to me. She marked from the side which was the root of the problem. I do agree that the ball was mismarked so I agree in principle with the ruling. The ball marking rule was broken. Two strokes. Moving on folks, nothing to see here.

Unfortunately it didn't happen that way.

This is where I really have an issue with all of this.

The penalty was called and assessed, not by a fellow player, or a LPGA rules official or the tournament rules committee that night. It was assessed THE NEXT DAY, due to an email from some anal retentive person who may or may not have had something to gain from this. Not only did this happen the following day, but 3/4 of the way through her round when she had little time to make up the 4 strokes. This seems blatantly unfair in the extreme to me. The rule about signing an incorrect card when you had no idea it was incorrect is just bafflingly stupid.

It's either two strokes immediately after the round, before cards are signed and official, or get rid of the signing an incorrect card rule altogether. If this rule were eliminated then there would be time to assess things and penalty strokes could be assessed, if necessary, before the next day's play.

This is also completely unfair to So Yeon Ryu as well, she "won" the ANA, a major for her resume, but it will always be clouded with this. She is by all accounts a classy young lady. This sucks for her too.

And finally, it is always my hope in situations like this that something really crazy neat will happen. Like they tee it up for the playoff and So Yeon hits it out on purpose to not only concede the trophy to her opponent but to tweak the noses of the power that be that can't seem to get out of their own way. I hope one of these days at the Grilled Cheese Amateur Open I have this opportunity to do something like this. I'd like to think I would blast one OB and then head to the bar and buy a round for everyone. That would feel good.

Very well said, kirasdad, unfortunately one has to reach the station in life where you can afford to give the middle finger salute to the powers that be. We'll never see a thrown playoff that resulted from a delayed and misguided penalty assessment because the competitors are still trying to make a name for themselves.

FWIW, we're sort of seeing a vestige of this as Alexander Ovechkin has said quite publicly that he will play for Russia in the 2018 Olympics regardless of what the NHL has decreed! You have to be a made man/woman before you can thumb your nose at the establishment.

The marking from the side thing is distinctly amateur, very Sunday morning fourball. Her own fault as she should know better, she should be more careful. Expensive lesson.

I "mark" my ball with the end of my putter. If I was playing in anything formal, I wouldn't and I would respect the rules and the other players by doing things properly.

Rules are rules, but hoping there was a concept of letter and spirit as it was for Locke.

my rant, the Masters tv coverage, repetitive arrogance