Shafting beads, why do/dont you use it?

EHolmEHolm Members Posts: 342 ✭✭
I've been building my own clubs for a while now. Keep reading about the importance of shafting beads to make the shaft sit straighter and to make it stronger. Never had an issue with heads coming off or a shaft not being in straight. Just wanted to hear what the wrx crowd got to say about it
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Comments

  • That Bob GuyThat Bob Guy Never settle! Members Posts: 2,574 ✭✭
    Hey, as a matter of fact, I just tried "Quick Center" on a build, as opposed to "Shafting Beads", and was wondering what the pros and cons of each were. We'll wait and listen.
  • Scottie68Scottie68 Members Posts: 803 ✭✭
    The shaft "straightness" will depending upon the fit of the shaft diameter to the hosel bore. If the shaft has too much play when in the hosel bore, shafting beads can be used to take up the clearance, thereby producing a better alignment of the shaft center line to the hosel center line (aka straightness).
  • CoheedCoheed Members Posts: 1,149
    I think the only con is people using too much as only a pinch is needed for re-shafting a set.
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  • CwebbCwebb Members Posts: 5,959 ✭✭


    Hey, as a matter of fact, I just tried "Quick Center" on a build, as opposed to "Shafting Beads", and was wondering what the pros and cons of each were. We'll wait and listen.




    Quick Center is larger in size, so that's the right one to use when there's too much space between the hosel and shaft,...but not enough space to use a shim.



    Shafting beads basically just make the epoxy "thicker"
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,598 ✭✭
    Shafting beads are a filler material that reduces bond strength.
    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S (i200 backups)
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,568 ✭✭
    A bit of a controversial subject. Personally I'd like to see the hard data first then rely these types of statements but in full disclosure, according to Brampton, they can actually increase the structural bond.



    https://bramptontechnology.com/pro-fix-shafting-beads/



    Although I must admit, most of the failures I've read about seem to be associated with too high a percentage or ratio used (user error and misuse of the beads).
  • EHolmEHolm Members Posts: 342 ✭✭
    Nessism wrote:


    Shafting beads are a filler material that reduces bond strength.


    On what do you base the reduced strength on? Just curious image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    PXG 0811X 7.5° Veylix Rome 888 X
    PXG 0341X 3W 13.5° Veylix Rome 888 X
    TaylorMade P790 2i UDI Veylix Rome 988 X
    TaylorMade P770 4-7 KBS $-taper black 130 X
    TaylorMade P750 8-PW KBS $-taper black 130 X
    Titleist SM7 Jet black 50-12F KBS Tour custom white X
    Titleist SM7 Jet black 56-10M KBS Tour custom white S
    Titleist SM7 Jet black 62-06L KBS Tour custom white S
    Odyssey Lucky 777 SB
  • brkuckbrkuck Members Posts: 1,619 ✭✭
    EHolm wrote:

    Nessism wrote:


    Shafting beads are a filler material that reduces bond strength.


    On what do you base the reduced strength on? Just curious image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    Ive heard that this is the case if the installer uses the shafting beads too much, but I have never had any personal issues/malfunctions. It is a thickener for a shaft tip and hosel bore that arent matched up well and is too small for shims. They work fine as long as you use a small amount and not try to overpower the epoxy with it.
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,598 ✭✭
    Shafting beads are microballoons. Hollow glass spheres. By definition it creates porosity in the epoxy and reduces density. What do you guys think that does for the bond material strength? I know it doesn't increase it or 3M and every epoxy maker would sell such a product for industrial use.



    I first became aware of microballoons back when working with RC modeling. It was standard practice to add the filler into the epoxy (or polyester resin) and then use it to make fillets, which by virtue of the filler was then easy to sand because it creates porosity.



    That Bramptons 20-20 epoxy is very thin (low viscosity). You gotta be careful to only use it if the shaft to hosel fit is snug with low clearance. If there is a gap adding shafting beads would be the lesser of evils because the thin epoxy will run out of the joint and collect at the bottom of the hosel and go up the shaft tip if you don't thicken it up some.
    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S (i200 backups)
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,568 ✭✭
    Interesting - another shared hobby in our past :-)



    Remember that the mixes used for weight reduction in RC were quite high. Not unusual to use a 1-1 (or 50%) mix of beads to epoxy. At that high a ratio, the strength would be significantly compromised. For golf what is typically used is more in the range of 5% by volume.



    Now, I haven't found any specific papers studying and reporting the effect on the strength of the epoxy for that small a percentage (which would be nice for confirmation), but it wouldn't really surprise me if the impact was minimal.
  • Albatross85Albatross85 Tiger is the GOAT St. Louis, MOMembers Posts: 2,865 ✭✭
    Nessism wrote:


    Shafting beads are microballoons. Hollow glass spheres. By definition it creates porosity in the epoxy and reduces density. What do you guys think that does for the bond material strength? I know it doesn't increase it or 3M and every epoxy maker would sell such a product for industrial use.



    I first became aware of microballoons back when working with RC modeling. It was standard practice to add the filler into the epoxy (or polyester resin) and then use it to make fillets, which by virtue of the filler was then easy to sand because it creates porosity.



    That Bramptons 20-20 epoxy is very thin (low viscosity). You gotta be careful to only use it if the shaft to hosel fit is snug with low clearance. If there is a gap adding shafting beads would be the lesser of evils because the thin epoxy will run out of the joint and collect at the bottom of the hosel and go up the shaft tip if you don't thicken it up some.
    Bramptons 20/20 is one of the thicker epoxies. Not sure where you get thin from. 20/20 is all i use unless i run out and use gorilla glue epoxy. Compared to tour epoxy from golfworks and one of the 3ms i tried 20/20 when mixed properly is probably the thickest.
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  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,382 ClubWRX
    Shafting beads (micro balloons) are far too small to have any real effect on centering the shaft. As a result, people use far too much and get into a problem with reducing the strength of the bond. Fortunately, epoxies these days are so good, people don't notice the reduction in strength and it usually is a non-issue. Beads are just the wrong item to be using.



    Using a product like Quik Center is more likely to provide the centering of a shaft (due to poor fit) and quite similar to using a thin shim without having to use a shim. I will use Quik Center on occasion where I don't really have a shim option. The reason I prefer using a product like Quik Center is that it is visible and much larger than shafting beads. It really only takes a few grains (a pinch if you will) to do the job and you are far less likely to over use it.



    A properly prepped shaft and hosel do not require either product.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
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    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
    Ping Forged 52°

  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,598 ✭✭
    Stuart G. wrote:


    Interesting - another shared hobby in our past :-)



    Remember that the mixes used for weight reduction in RC were quite high. Not unusual to use a 1-1 (or 50%) mix of beads to epoxy. At that high a ratio, the strength would be significantly compromised. For golf what is typically used is more in the range of 5% by volume.



    Now, I haven't found any specific papers studying and reporting the effect on the strength of the epoxy for that small a percentage (which would be nice for confirmation), but it wouldn't really surprise me if the impact was minimal.






    I just picked up a couple of strips of 1/8" aluminum from our R&D shop. I'll cut them to length and make some test coupons for lap shear tensile testing.



    I've got some DP420/460/810 and regular Golfworks epoxy. Maybe I should pick up some gorilla epoxy (just kidding). I'll make up a sample with shafting beads added for comparison purposes too. Give me a few days...
    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S (i200 backups)
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,568 ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2017 #15
    Nessism wrote:

    Stuart G. wrote:


    Interesting - another shared hobby in our past :-)



    Remember that the mixes used for weight reduction in RC were quite high. Not unusual to use a 1-1 (or 50%) mix of beads to epoxy. At that high a ratio, the strength would be significantly compromised. For golf what is typically used is more in the range of 5% by volume.



    Now, I haven't found any specific papers studying and reporting the effect on the strength of the epoxy for that small a percentage (which would be nice for confirmation), but it wouldn't really surprise me if the impact was minimal.






    I just picked up a couple of strips of 1/8" aluminum from our R&D shop. I'll cut them to length and make some test coupons for lap shear tensile testing.



    I've got some DP420/460/810 and regular Golfworks epoxy. Maybe I should pick up some gorilla epoxy (just kidding). I'll make up a sample with shafting beads added for comparison purposes too. Give me a few days...




    Sounds like an interesting and worth while experiment. I thought about it but don't have any shafting beads. Have you thought about how much clamping pressure to use?
  • 95124hacker95124hacker Rare putter collection Members Posts: 1,310 ✭✭
    Is a shear strength test appropriate for clubheads instead of a torsion test or bending test? Seems like the loading (impact) is creates more torque and bending moment than shear load at the hosel interface.



    Sorry I'm a mechanical engineer and did my Masters thesis on strength of materials.
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,568 ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2017 #17


    Is a shear strength test appropriate for clubheads instead of a torsion test or bending test? Seems like the loading (impact) is creates more torque and bending moment than shear load at the hosel interface.



    Sorry I'm a mechanical engineer and did my Masters thesis on strength of materials.




    Torque on the head would result in shear stress on the glue joint - specifically in the circumferential direction (not axial).
  • Scottie68Scottie68 Members Posts: 803 ✭✭
    Shear of the epoxy, not shear of the hosel itself
  • 95124hacker95124hacker Rare putter collection Members Posts: 1,310 ✭✭
    edited May 3, 2017 #19
    Yes right. So the appropriate test is a twist between the 2 substrates/coupons, not a linear shear (unidirectional sliding). A tensile test is a straight pull which isn't representative either.
    ‘17 M2 “K serial” 10.5* turned down a notch, Fujikura Pro Tour Spec 63S
    '16 M1 3HL (17*), Fujikura Pro 70S
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,568 ✭✭


    Yes right. So the appropriate test is a twist between the 2 substrates/coupons, not a linear shear (unidirectional sliding).




    Shear is shear so it really doesn't matter - but twisting of the head relative to the shaft is a unidirectional shear - around the circumference of the shaft.
  • That Bob GuyThat Bob Guy Never settle! Members Posts: 2,574 ✭✭
  • wcbjrwcbjr Members Posts: 2,810 ✭✭
    edited May 3, 2017 #22
    Cwebb wrote:


    Shafting beads basically just make the epoxy "thicker"




    This. If the shafting beads are smaller in diameter than the slack between the hosel and the shaft, than the beads will continually migrate around the shaft because there is nothing to stop them from moving around.



    \ ooo | | ooo /



    What is to stop some of the above 'beads' from moving to one side or the other? Nothing.



    \ oooo | | oo /



    You'll end up with something like this, above.



    Now if you have something that has the diameter of three 'beads' in my example, then there is nowhere for the new spacer to go. You won't be able to fit two spacers on one side of the hosel. They are essentially spherical shims.
  • cristphotocristphoto Members Posts: 3,371 ✭✭
    edited May 3, 2017 #23
    The only time I use shafting beads is on Ping irons. Ping intentionally makes a looser hosel so the shaft won't air lock if there is a Ping cushin anti-vibration insert installed.
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,598 ✭✭
    cristphoto wrote:


    The only time I use shafting beads is on Ping irons. Ping intentionally makes a looser hosel so the shaft won't air lock if there is a Ping cushin anti-vibration insert installed.




    The ferruless Ping hosel design affords a lot of epoxy cushion around the shaft except at the very bottom of the hosel where it necks down. You can actually see a little step at the bottom of the hosel if you look close. To get the shaft to seat all the way to the bottom of the hosel it's necessary to drive the shaft down into the hosel with a hammering motion. Failing to do this will result in a "short shaft" situation where the shaft doesn't go to the bottom of the hosel.



    Some people think Ping uses super strong epoxy because pulling the heads can be difficult, but the difficulty doesn't come from the epoxy it comes from overcoming the interference fit of the head onto the shaft.



    When the shaft is driven down firmly into the necked down portion of the hosel at the bottom that works to help center the shaft at the top of the hosel (somewhat). There is a lot of extra clearance around the shaft though. Sometimes the shaft will tilt in this clearance and throw off the loft and lie. Creaking noises from Ping shaft to hosel interface is very common too. Ping uses thick epoxy that doesn't slide down into the hosel. Using some thin epoxy like Bramptons can cause issues.



    When building ferruless Ping's I like to use a couple of wraps of fiberglass drywall tape around the shaft in order to keep it centered better in the hosel. I also use 3M DP810 acrylic adhesive because it's super strong yet it remains flexible (to reduce risk of creaking noises). DP810 is also pretty thick so it doesn't migrate in the joint after application.



    Bottom line is reshafting ferruless Ping's is fiddly work. I don't think the design clearance between the shaft and hosel wall has anything to do with Cushin inserts though.
    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S (i200 backups)
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,598 ✭✭
    Pulled apart the sample coupons today. Test samples were made from 1/8" thick aluminum with a 1 sq-in overlap bond area. The samples were prepared by first degreasing with isopropyl alcohol and then abraded with 220 grit sanding roll, two directions, followed by a second IA degreasing. The samples were clamped together with a small spring clamp and allowed to cure at room temperature for 6 hours, then placed in a heated environment at 150F for one hour.



    Sample #1 - 3M DP420

    Sample #2 - Golfworks shafting epoxy

    Sample #3 - Golfworks w/shafting beads



    Tensile strength:

    Sample #1 - 2219 lbs (psi)

    Sample #2 - 1678

    Sample #3 - 1426



    I'll post photos of the test coupons later but observations are the following.



    Sample #1 (3M) - adhesive pulled away from the coupon on one side by about 60%. This suggests poor adhesion to the base material. Poor prep on my part?

    Sample #2 (Golfworks) - some adhesive pull away on one side but mostly the adhesive sheared.

    Sample #3 (Golfworks w/beads) - similar to #2, adhesive seemed to stick pretty well to the coupon, but sheared.



    I'm a little surprised by the low test numbers. I'm going to make up some more samples and do the test again just for kicks. When assembling the two coupon halfs in contact with each other after slathering them with epoxy they wanted to squirm around as the adhesive squished out. It was a little fiddly keeping the samples aligned while clamping and maybe some slight internal gaping was created. In a golf club environment the adhesive will be trapped in a gapped space, not clamped together, so I'm thinking that some sort of male/female sliding tube coupons would make for a better test. If I get motivated I'll make some better sample coupons...



    At any rate, bottom line is that shafting beads did decrease bond strength. The strength drop was not drastic though.



    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S (i200 backups)
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers Posts: 23,568 ✭✭
    Nice.



    What did you use to apply the force? The numbers could be reduced if the system allowed for a small amount of torque to cause a small peeling component. That also might explain the adhesive pulling away from one side more than the other.
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,598 ✭✭
    Stuart G. wrote:


    Nice.



    What did you use to apply the force? The numbers could be reduced if the system allowed for a small amount of torque to cause a small peeling component. That also might explain the adhesive pulling away from one side more than the other.




    A tensile strength tester machine was used.



    I do believe there was some bending going on with sample #1, the 3M sample, because the coupons are now bent slightly. The clamp head on one side was locked down instead of being allowed to free float. That might be partly responsible for the low test numbers for that sample.
    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S (i200 backups)
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,382 ClubWRX
    Nessism wrote:

    Stuart G. wrote:


    Nice.



    What did you use to apply the force? The numbers could be reduced if the system allowed for a small amount of torque to cause a small peeling component. That also might explain the adhesive pulling away from one side more than the other.




    A tensile strength tester machine was used.



    I do believe there was some bending going on with sample #1, the 3M sample, because the coupons are now bent slightly. The clamp head on one side was locked down instead of being allowed to free float. That might be partly responsible for the low test numbers for that sample.


    Interesting stuff. In your next text, could you do DP460 with and without beads? And also with the "recommended" amount of beads and with too much beads? That might give us more of benchmark without too many epoxy types involved.



    And thanks for doing this kind of work.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
    Ping Forged 52°

  • pitchinwedgepitchinwedge Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Ness, have you used any of the Brampton epoxies? The seem to be white/clear versus the black colored Golfsmith/Golfworks epoxy I'm using. I haven't had any problems with the black stuff but it doesn't work well with white ferrules. I always seem to get some epoxy between the hosel and the ferrule, which results in an ugly black ring. Their website says to use beads, which is why I'm asking. Thanks!
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    816 H2 19.0* - D+ Plus 90
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    716 CB (5-PW) - Modus 120
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    Photo WITB
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,598 ✭✭
    I've used Brampton's 20-20 and it was fine as long as your joint is normal to snug. I found it thin and it might run out of the joint if there is a lot of clearance between the shaft and hosel.
    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S (i200 backups)
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • pitchinwedgepitchinwedge Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Ok thanks. Is there anything else you'd recommend? Again, the black stuff works well enough but the color is the issue.
    917 D2 8.50* - Tensei CK Pro White 60
    917 F2 13.5* - Rogue Max 70
    816 H2 19.0* - D+ Plus 90
    716 T-MB (3i, 4i) - Modus 120
    716 CB (5-PW) - Modus 120
    Hogan TK15 - 49, 55
    Edel Deschutes

    Photo WITB
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