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Big Bad Low Spin Shaft Review - Continuous On Going Information and Data Updates

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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #32
    Peanut191 wrote:


    Toll,do you agree with Aaron's assessment that the Orange V3 doesn't "feel" counterbalanced?




    I love the balance of the shaft and only added 2 grams to the head with it. I really like the feel and wouldn't say it feels overly counter weighted at all.
    Posted:
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  • Dirtydawg67Dirtydawg67  78Members Posts: 78
    Joined:  #33
    Thanks for doing this. I'm pretty sure you've sold me on a PO as soon as I move the PO V2.
    Posted:
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #34


    Thanks for doing this. I'm pretty sure you've sold me on a PO as soon as I move the PO V2.




    PO is basically for the power guy and V2 is better for the smooth guy. You won't have any trouble finding someone who wants your V2, that's for sure.
    Posted:
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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #35
    FYI I will also add X-Torsion Copperhead to the test as well. I will have those this week.
    Posted:
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  • J13J13 Dad golf  15883Members Posts: 15,883
    Joined:  edited May 20, 2017 #36
    Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic. Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Callaway Epic Flash Triple Diamond 9* / Mitsu Tensei Pro White 70TX
    Fairway wood - Under construction
    Irons - Under Construction
    Wedges - Under Construction
    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow Neck
    Srixon Zstar XV

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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  edited May 20, 2017 #37
    J13 wrote:


    Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic. Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.




    The total group is 45 guys that rotate doing testing and honestly probably 35 of them play M series, and the rest play some sort of Callaway with the exception of 2 who play Cobra. All for no other reason than they are best for each individual player AND, and this is a big factor, that we all play Taylormade Tour issue heads and can choose our specific specs. I think we would see a lot more in Epic series if we could simply choose our specs. Retail variences just don't cut it. Find me a sub zero at 7 degrees of true loft with a red dot sleeve and I may play it.
    Posted:
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  • JStangJStang  2624Members Posts: 2,624
    Joined:  #38
    Good to see the train back on the tracks.
    Posted:
    '16 M2 Rogue Fairway | 915H 2 | T-MB 3, 718 CB 4-PW | Vokey SM6 52, SM7 58 | Toulon LV
  • J13J13 Dad golf  15883Members Posts: 15,883
    Joined:  #39
    TollBros wrote:

    J13 wrote:


    Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic. Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.




    The total group is 45 guys that rotate doing testing and honestly probably 35 of them play M series, and the rest play some sort of Callaway with the exception of 2 who play Cobra. All for no other reason than they are best for each individual player AND, and this is a big factor, that we all play Taylormade Tour issue heads and can choose our specific specs. I think we would see a lot more in Epic series if we could simply choose our specs. Retail variences just don't cut it. Find me a sub zero at 7 degrees of true loft with a red dot sleeve and I may play it.




    Callaway Tour stuff is hard to come by and I agree on knowing specs. I'd like to see Callawaay add spec'd out heads to the Cally Customs program. The Red Dot sleeves are nice especially for better players, wish they were easier to get as well.
    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash Triple Diamond 9* / Mitsu Tensei Pro White 70TX
    Fairway wood - Under construction
    Irons - Under Construction
    Wedges - Under Construction
    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow Neck
    Srixon Zstar XV

    WITB- http://www.golfwrx.c.../page__st__1590


    Instagram-
    On -, @Jminis13





  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #40
    J13 wrote:

    TollBros wrote:

    J13 wrote:


    Great info as always but why are all your players in a TM M driver and all play a Mitsubishi shaft? I tested almost every driver on trackman outdoors along with a handful of D1 players and half the group got the best numbers from the Epic. Me personally fit into the Epic from last year's M2 and got another 2-3mph ball speed over 2017 M series.




    The total group is 45 guys that rotate doing testing and honestly probably 35 of them play M series, and the rest play some sort of Callaway with the exception of 2 who play Cobra. All for no other reason than they are best for each individual player AND, and this is a big factor, that we all play Taylormade Tour issue heads and can choose our specific specs. I think we would see a lot more in Epic series if we could simply choose our specs. Retail variences just don't cut it. Find me a sub zero at 7 degrees of true loft with a red dot sleeve and I may play it.




    Callaway Tour stuff is hard to come by and I agree on knowing specs. I'd like to see Callawaay add spec'd out heads to the Cally Customs program. The Red Dot sleeves are nice especially for better players, wish they were easier to get as well.




    I really think that's what it comes down to. If we could all choose exact lofts and face angles Callaway would be a more viable option. The ball speeds and technology are there, but I can say for me personally, if I can't get the specs I want, it's not an option. In this day of fitting and dialing in performance​, the fact that this type of option isn't available is ridiculous.
    Posted:
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  • ruxpin23ruxpin23  136Members Posts: 136
    Joined:  #41
    Really appreciate all the effort tollbros. For guys like me that don't have a nearby fitter that carries all of these, this is a godsend. I'm currently in a t1100 but am not in love with it. I'm looking at tensei white or orange (v3) as my next shaft. Seems like the white is closer to the old ahina profile I like, but the increased ball speeds of the Orange seem to be consistent across a lot of reviews. To top it off, I did feel like the ahina felt slightly tip heavy.



    All that said, in terms of feel, could you describe what the main difference between white and v3 are since you've had a lot of experience testing both? Do they feel similar with a slight tweak or do they feel worlds apart?
    Posted:
    VPR Strike Driver, MRC Tensei CK Pro Orange 70TX
    VPR Strike 3 Wood, MRC Tensei CK Pro White 80TX
    2011 VR Pro Combo 3-PW, DG AMT X100
    Vokey SM7 52F 58K 62M
    2012 Scotty Cameron Select Newport 2
    Nike RZN Black
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  edited May 21, 2017 #42
    ruxpin23 wrote:


    Really appreciate all the effort tollbros. For guys like me that don't have a nearby fitter that carries all of these, this is a godsend. I'm currently in a t1100 but am not in love with it. I'm looking at tensei white or orange (v3) as my next shaft. Seems like the white is closer to the old ahina profile I like, but the increased ball speeds of the Orange seem to be consistent across a lot of reviews. To top it off, I did feel like the ahina felt slightly tip heavy.



    All that said, in terms of feel, could you describe what the main difference between white and v3 are since you've had a lot of experience testing both? Do they feel similar with a slight tweak or do they feel worlds apart?




    Tense pro white is softer feeling in the handle and is more tip heavy. It also is a bit more harsh feeling in the tip. I think because of the amount of Kevlar and the tungsten resin in the pro orange. The combination absorbs the vibrations through the shaft more fully and makes the pro orange feel smoother.
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/forum/608-greengrassevaluationscom/

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  • campioncampion 3-jack-king  652Members Posts: 652
    Joined:  #43
    Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed
    Posted:
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #44
    campion wrote:


    Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed




    Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.



    As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.
    Posted:
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  • campioncampion 3-jack-king  652Members Posts: 652
    Joined:  #45
    TollBros wrote:

    campion wrote:


    Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed




    Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.



    As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.




    Awesome can't wait to read the details
    Posted:
  • moonshinemoonshine 64 @ Augusta? No problem! North Charleston, SC 6376ClubWRX Posts: 6,376
    Joined:  #46
    So are the orange versions for instance widely avail or you have to "know" someone to get them? I assume as a tester your are given to you or you use then and then return for data purposes only? thanks



    I'm a bit curious about ball variances as well. The ball(s) tested or off the shelf or special versions tour only as well? thanks..again!
    Posted:
    "We have learned that we must
    live as men, not as ostriches, nor
    as dogs in the manger." FDR
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #47
    moonshine wrote:


    So are the orange versions for instance widely avail or you have to "know" someone to get them? I assume as a tester your are given to you or you use then and then return for data purposes only? thanks



    I'm a bit curious about ball variances as well. The ball(s) tested or off the shelf or special versions tour only as well? thanks..again!




    Some of the products are retail and some are Tour only at the moment. This test is to test the best of the best on tour and in the market and the products generating the most buzz. As for the balls used in testing, we use off the shelf golf balls that you can buy at any store.
    Posted:
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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
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    Rickey's 112ss data posted.
    Posted:
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  • JStangJStang  2624Members Posts: 2,624
    Joined:  #49
    What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?
    Posted:
    '16 M2 Rogue Fairway | 915H 2 | T-MB 3, 718 CB 4-PW | Vokey SM6 52, SM7 58 | Toulon LV
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #50
    JStang wrote:


    What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?




    To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.
    Posted:
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  • ShilgyShilgy Phoenix 11962Members Posts: 11,962
    Joined:  #51
    TollBros wrote:

    campion wrote:


    Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed




    Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.



    As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.
    And all this time I thought you were a golf geek that built houses. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • blev2blev2 Blev  461Members Posts: 461
    Joined:  #52
    Knew I shoulda bought stock in the pro orange...
    Posted:
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  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  edited May 21, 2017 #53
    Shilgy wrote:

    TollBros wrote:

    campion wrote:


    Tollbros thanks for the info I'm courious what do you do a living? I'm guessing you own a fitting business? Either way always enjoy your posts and the data in them. Is the orange giving everyone more ball speed.. looking at the data that seems to be the one with the highest ball speed




    Without yet being a board sponsor, I don't want to turn this into an advertisement for the company I work for. The short answer is it's a business that evaluates golf equipment through an independent test panel and provides highly detailed data and feedback. These tests are like a cliff notes version.



    As for the oranges, it depends on the player, as to what differences they see. Some things are more pronounced at higher speeds and some things translate through the entire group. I will be updating every other day until the whole picture is clear.
    And all this time I thought you were a golf geek that built houses. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    The Tollbros thing is an inside joke among friends. My last name is Toll. Without going into too much detail, my buddies would tell girls I was the heir to the Toll Brothers empire for wow factor, so basically at this point I just roll with it since there is no fighting it. Haha. But no, I wish, but I have no relation to the high end builder.
    Posted:
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  • JStangJStang  2624Members Posts: 2,624
    Joined:  #54
    TollBros wrote:

    JStang wrote:


    What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?




    To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.




    Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?



    Posted:
    '16 M2 Rogue Fairway | 915H 2 | T-MB 3, 718 CB 4-PW | Vokey SM6 52, SM7 58 | Toulon LV
  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  edited May 21, 2017 #55
    JStang wrote:

    TollBros wrote:

    JStang wrote:


    What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?




    To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.




    Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?







    The extreme butt is about the same as white for pro orange but the stiffness is more linear. Also the balance of the shaft being higher gives it the feeling of less handle flex. When you swing both, the pro white feels more flexible in the handle. Sometimes focusing on one point of the graph doesn't tell the whole story. No question Pro Orange FEELS less flexible in the handle. This is also the first Tensei with tungsten resin technology so that may have some affect on the feel as well. I always find the graphs interesting when new tech comes along and changes the player's perception during the swing. Very cool how they can manipulate the feel, balance, and load with different materials.
    Posted:
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  • noodle3872noodle3872 Chilliwack B.C. Canada 2916Members Posts: 2,916
    Joined:  #56
    TollBros wrote:

    JStang wrote:

    TollBros wrote:

    JStang wrote:


    What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?




    To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.




    Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?





    Very cool how they can manipulate the feel, balance, and load with different materials.




    And IMHO this is what Mitsubishi does better than any other shaft manufacturing company.
    Posted:

    Callaway Epic Flash SZ Triple Diamond 10.5° driver MCA Diamana ZF 50 S Flex

    Callaway Epic Flash 15° fairway wood MCA Diamana BF 60 S Flex

    Callaway Epic Flash 21° hybrid MCA MMT 90 S Flex

    Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro 5-PW Modus3 Tour 105 S flex

    Mizuno S18 Gunmetal Wedges 50-07, 54-12, 58-12 and 62-08 Modus3 115 Wedge

    Odyssey Stroke Lab Ten S

    Titleist Yellow Pro V1x


    Callaway Epic Flash 10.5° driver MCA Diamana DF 50 S Flex

    Callaway Rogue 19° hybrid MCA MMT 90 S Flex

    Odyssey RSX Milled V-Line Fang

  • TollBrosTollBros Overseer of the Test Range  4902Sponsors Posts: 4,902
    Joined:  #57
    noodle3872 wrote:

    TollBros wrote:

    JStang wrote:

    TollBros wrote:

    JStang wrote:


    What do you think causes the Pro White to be among he slowest swing speeds from all 3 players thus far?




    To be honest I hadn't noticed, but you're right so far. I think it's possible, if you see the shaft we first 3 play, they are much more butt stiff shafts so the feel of the white profile isn't exactly what is ideal. Now saying that, the launch and spin are very good with all 3 data blocks. There's nothing wrong with the shaft, just the feel dynamic coming into play I'd say, where maybe you don't quite release it as efficiently. Every player will have a comfort zone with certain profiles or balance points that can yield marginal differences of maybe 1-2 mph either way.




    Maybe I'm looking at this chart wrong but in order from most to least butt stiff doesn't it go Pro Blue, Pro White, Pro Orange?





    Very cool how they can manipulate the feel, balance, and load with different materials.




    And IMHO this is what Mitsubishi does better than any other shaft manufacturing company.




    I agree 100%.
    Posted:
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  • manima1manima1 Chicago 736Members Posts: 736
    Joined:  #58
    Thanks for bringing this back JT, excited to see the rest of the data.



    The PO looks to be turning in a pretty dominant run here. Only spins a bit more than the KKDC but higher launch angle and ball speeds.



    If I wasn't so happy with the KKDC I would be trying to get my hands on one. Will be interesting to see what happens with the lower swing speed players - I will be looking at these (2) shafts closely.
    Posted:
    M5 9.0 - Kuro Kage Dual Core 80tx 
    '16 M2HL 16.8 tour issued deep faced - Fujikura 8.3 TS
    zU45 18 degree - S400
    z745 4-9 - S400
    SM6 46.08F - S400 Chrome
    SM6 50.08F - S400 Steel Gray
    SM7 54.10S - S400 Raw
    TM Hi-Toe 60.12ATV - S400 Black
    TM Spider X - Navy
  • msands12msands12  75ClubWRX Posts: 75
    Joined:  #59
    Thanks TB for all this work and information. Pretty awesome to provide your time and knowledge to the forum. Got a quick question. I currently play a Rogue 125 70TX in my Epic SZ. What shaft(s) on this list would be something I should look into trying if I got the bug to experiment?
    Posted:
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Minnesota, USA 6843Members Posts: 6,843
    Joined:  #60
    Completely awesome stuff. <salute>



    Having a stick with the HZRDUS 75, I'm not especially surprised to see the spin numbers being generated. Tossing another shaft in that clubhead gave me a lower trajectory and, based upon on-course results, lower spin.



    Look forward to seeing how the entire project shakes out...
    Posted:
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Golden Ram TW805, Precision 6.5, 43.25"
    3w:  Golden Ram 16*, Precision 6.5, 42"
    2i:  Mizuno Pro, DGS300
    3-PW:  Mizuno MP-37, DGS300
    2-PW:  Golden Ram Tour Grinds, Dynamic S
    GW:  Dynacraft forged 52*, DGS400 (not carried with Golden Rams)
    SW:  Wilson Staff PMP 58*
    Putter: Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35"
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane/Professional, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar, Snell MTB Black, Vice Pro Lime... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time

    Driver Substitutes: Golden Ram TW801 or TW802, DGS300
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  • PompsPomps  921Members Posts: 921
    Joined:  #61
    msands12 wrote:


    Thanks TB for all this work and information. Pretty awesome to provide your time and knowledge to the forum. Got a quick question. I currently play a Rogue 125 70TX in my Epic SZ. What shaft(s) on this list would be something I should look into trying if I got the bug to experiment?




    I was typing basically the exact same question but without the epic part.
    Posted:
    TaylorMade 2016 Tour Issue M2 9.1* - Tensei AV Blue 75TX (D7)
    Titleist 915f 15* - Diamana Ltd D+ 80x 43" (D6)
    Titleist 915hd 20.5* - Diamana D+ 90s 40.5" (D6)
    TaylorMade p790 UDI 2 Iron - Project X Hzrdus Black 85 6.0 (D4; 2* flat)
    Srixon z785 4-9 - Nippon Modus 125x; 2* flat 
    Srixon z965 PW - Nippon Modus 125s 2* flat
    Vokey SM6 F-Grind 51* (D5; 2* flat); Vokey SM7 S-Grind 56* (D5; 2* flat) & TaylorMade Hi Toe 60* (D7; 2* flat) - DG Tour Issue s400
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Diamond 33.5"
54

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