3W vs Driver off the tee

14344454749

Comments

  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,367 ✭✭
    mahonie wrote:


    mahonie wrote:


    That would assume you could hit every fairway with the 3-wood and miss every fairway with the driver.


    ...and that you hit the driver 70 yards further than the 3-wood.




    Right. Neither of those things are true, which is why that post doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.




    My original post was taken directly from the PGA Tour website...and yes, hitting driver 70 yards further than 3-wood doesn’t make sense. However, Tiger’s play on the 18th in the Valspar makes perfect sense in that he thought he had a better chance of getting down in two from 185 yards in the fairway than from 150 yards in the rough according to Strokes Gained analysis.




    *sigh*



    he didn't know before he hit the tee shot that the 3 wood would end up in the fairway and the driver would end up in the rough. he doesn't hit the fairway 100% of the time with 3 wood. if you could guarantee me that tiger would hit fairway with the 3 wood 100% of the time, then your analysis would make sense. you are not accounting for the scenario where he hits 3 wood in the rough, which happens some percent of the time, or the scenario where he hits driver in the fairway, which also happens some percent of the time.



    you may or may not be right or wrong, but your analysis is so simplistic as to be useless.
    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Ping G30 Hybrids 2 17*,  3 19*, 4 22* TFC 419 Stiff
    Pinhawk SL 5-SW +3 Up Apollo Stiff 115
    PM Grind 64*
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,111 ✭✭
    Serious question in that line.





    Tigers OB miss. Since he could reach ob with Driver and likely 3 wood. Wouldn’t the play be 2 iron ?



    I’m not asking as a statement of my opinion. But what does the data say? Is there a hard fast line ? There must be , how can data be grey ? Does it literally say to hit the longest club that you can’t reach trouble with ?



    I ask becouse I have trouble with anylitics because usually they have exceptions. When I see that I immediately think “ well there goes the credibility of that “. I can make my own educated wild guess and probably average the same.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,769 ✭✭
    It is virtually impossible not to be affected by several well known biases and emotional influences when trying to weigh alternatives which entail large uncertainty.



    For instance nearly everyone will weight a low probability very aversive outcome more strongly than its actual likelihood warrants.



    We also tend to favor things we think of as offering near certainty over possibly advantageous alternatives that seem more iffy. Call that one the “devil you know” effect.



    So by all means make an “educated guess” about your best strategy off the tee. Just be aware that your “education” will end up being trumped by the fact we cannot think strictly logically and your “educated guess” will be hugely influenced by emotional reactions to things you are treating with the correct likelihood.



    Analytics is a term for gathering actual data on both likelihood and severity of good and bad outcomes thereby enabling us to make a cold, hard assessment of the actual costs and benefits of each alternative. But that’s a very dry and tedious undertaking so lots of people just arm wave it away as invalid because of this or that real or imagined “exceptions”.



    Which is another emotionally influenced bias, of course. We all think we are special and that we are not necessarily subject to the same rules that affect others!
    Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784


    rawdog wrote:




    Well 0.25 strokes per round is one stroke over an entire tournament. That's meaningful (lots of guys would be multiple major winners if they had only been one stroke better in a few tournaments...paging Greg Norman) but not a total killer. When a guy like Stenson is "on" he can win in spite of that one-stroke conceded to the field.




    The intangible, to me anyway, is not measureable by numbers. His confidence in his 3 wood over his driver.



    The pure numbers may say he's giving up .25 strokes per round. But he may actually be saving himself much more than that because he's putting a much better and confident swing on his 3 wood. But that's not measurable.




    Not being smart here, but what is he saving? Mental anguish?



    The stats I presented were shots that actually happened. Meaning, he chose to hit a driver. And he chose that 33% of the time.



    So any mental anguish, fear, yips, whatever is all included in the numbers presented. Whatever fear or anxiety he has using a driver doesn't appear to be crippling him- the stats show he performs better with a driver.




    That's why I had made up my mind to stay out of this thread. "The stats show"......Do people really believe that if Stenson hitting driver would lead to better results he wouldn't be using it?



    I'll head back out of this thread.






    Right there with you buddy. I knew I was kicking the bee nest. Yet curiosity led me astray ! Lol.







    I'll never understand how it can be beneficial to preform any action that constantly yields bad results. And Driver is the only club I see strokes gained guys giving a pass. If I carried a 64 degree wedge and hit it fat 25% of the time everyone would yell " you don't need to carry that ". But a driver can miss that often and youre dumb if you don't hit it more.





    I define a Driver miss as any shot that isn't in bounds. Two doesn't carry farther than 3 wood or leaves me without a clear look at the green. That's a pretty wide Margain of error.



    Last 20 rounds I have tracked all tee shots. I've averaged 5 drivers a round. And have hit at least 1 per round OB or into a hazard. Also hit on average 1.5 a round that were duds. As in wiped spiny balls that traveled much less than average. Much less than 3 wood. So a risk taken for naught.



    Tracked my 3 wood and 5 wood together. Went 4 rounds in a row without missing a fairway with those 2. And I don't even care if I play from fairway or rough. Zero ob balls in 20 rounds with fairway woods or irons from the tee.



    I'm starting now on a sample to see how I score minus Driver except for a wide open hole here or there that has no OB. No hazard and a fairway adjacent to play from. . 9 holes in I'm -2 under par. Which I know means nothing ...,



    I convinced the disconnect is that some don't miss Driver like I do. Unless you do hit the occasional 50 yard push that's 280 out you don't get what a round killler it is.




    Bottom line....your driver should be marginally more difficult to hit than 3W. You're brain is making a big deal out of a handful of degrees difference in loft. Go to the range and hit your driver 150 yards to RELAX. Video yourself. Get lessons. The fix could be fairly easy.
    None
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784

    Bye wrote:


    Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.




    All confidence is unfounded.



    http://scienceblogs....-softball-outf/



    Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.



    For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.



    I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.



    Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.




    I don't get your comment. There's basic ability. After that....training. Without the first two...confidence is worthless...a dreamers refuge.
    None
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    Donno wrote:


    Bye wrote:


    Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.




    All confidence is unfounded.



    http://scienceblogs....-softball-outf/



    Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.



    For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.



    I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.



    Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.




    I don't get your comment. There's basic ability. After that....training. Without the first two...confidence is worthless...a dreamers refuge.




    After that comes trolling threads that approach the mind-numbingness that purgatory must bring.
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784
    rawdog wrote:

    Donno wrote:


    Bye wrote:


    Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.




    All confidence is unfounded.



    http://scienceblogs....-softball-outf/



    Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.



    For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.



    I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.



    Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.




    I don't get your comment. There's basic ability. After that....training. Without the first two...confidence is worthless...a dreamers refuge.




    After that comes trolling threads that approach the mind-numbingness that purgatory must bring.




    I read your comment. It's Twilight Zone stuff. Almost waiting for Rod Serling to walk out and explain.
    None
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,111 ✭✭
    Bottom line....your driver should be marginally more difficult to hit than 3W. You're brain is making a big deal out of a handful of degrees difference in loft. Go to the range and hit your driver 150 yards to RELAX. Video yourself. Get lessons. The fix could be fairly easy.







    LOL.... man... i could go sooo many ways with this... But ill take the high road and just use my wifes favorite saying ... Bless your heart....
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784


    Bottom line....your driver should be marginally more difficult to hit than 3W. You're brain is making a big deal out of a handful of degrees difference in loft. Go to the range and hit your driver 150 yards to RELAX. Video yourself. Get lessons. The fix could be fairly easy.







    LOL.... man... i could go sooo many ways with this... But ill take the high road and just use my wifes favorite saying ... Bless your heart....




    Go ahead dude...say it. You won't hurt my feelings. I need a laugh.
    None
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    Donno wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    Donno wrote:


    Bye wrote:


    Unfounded confidence is just as dangerous none in this game.




    All confidence is unfounded.



    http://scienceblogs....-softball-outf/



    Theoretically, it should be impossible for a baseball player to catch a fly ball with regularity. Yet they do it, constantly. Our brains shouldn't, with our processing power, be able to calculate its landing spot. But if you think you can, and you don't try to do it consciously, you can catch them over and over and over.



    For decades nobody could break a four minute mile. None of the top runners in the world even considered it possible. Then Robert (Roger?) Bannister actually did it and, once he did, others started destroying his record - his record, which broke a mark people thought unbreakable for decades, was broken three weeks later. Once people knew you could do it, they did it. They didn't get faster, they got irrational confidence from the fact that Bannister did it.



    I'm full of irrational confidence. Does it hurt me sometimes? Sure. But I think it helps a whole lot more.



    Realize some don't agree, which is fine. We agree to disagree.




    I don't get your comment. There's basic ability. After that....training. Without the first two...confidence is worthless...a dreamers refuge.




    After that comes trolling threads that approach the mind-numbingness that purgatory must bring.




    I read your comment. It's Twilight Zone stuff. Almost waiting for Rod Serling to walk out and explain.




    Keep waiting. He's only been dead 43 years.
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,111 ✭✭
    we arent talking about the same issues.. youre fixing VW beetles and im building the next gen space shuttle.



    and i mean no harm saying that ... just mean to illustrate that telling me to hit 150 yard driver says that you dont get where im coming from .





    Im watched pretty close by a Mentor who is a PGA Master pro.... and his only advice is "Tempo Tempo tempo".... and he is correct.. the rest is between my ears.. and its best its ever been now.... I just love to argue, plus im naturally curious and self taught at everything... so i ask plenty of stupid questions ( no such thing) and ill mix it up with these guys... Ill take a snippet or two and make it fit me from time to time.. But i do not come here to fix my game... Im just shooting the breeze and chewing the fat so to speak..
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784
    tsecor wrote:





    I usually get killed for pointing out these little details (because for some reason golfers are convinced based on nothing that being in the fairway matters) but it is much, much better to be 260 in the rough than 240 in the fairway. Twenty extra yards off the tee (about 10% in this scenario) is worth almost three tenths of a stroke per hole.



    So to answer your question: no. It depends on the player of course, but distance and speed are king in this game. Period.




    Depends on the rough. It gets juicy and thick here in the summer. At least 3" - 4". Unless you are really strong, even controlling a wedge out of the mess is more difficult than a 7 or 8 from the fairway.




    There are obviously exceptions to this. But given a general golf course, it is almost three times better to be in the rough twenty yards forward (assuming its around 15% - a 240/50 yard drive). Now, you will very likely hit prettier shots from the fairway and have more disasters from the rough but on average, in terms of approach proximity, almost nothing is more important than how far from the hole your ball starts before your iron hits it.


    DaRiz wrote:


    My thoughts are that if you can routinely square up a 43" 3 wood, but not a 45" driver, then that driver is too long for you



    I'm 6'1 and chopped mine down to 44" and my accuracy has skyrocketed. Ricky is at 43.5" in his driver now (but he's a little guy)



    The OEMs are never going to push this as stock because it doesn't allow them to make the same distance claims, but I have noticed a lot more talk about this on golf broadcasts as well as this forum




    You are falling into the same trap virtually everyone falls into. Driver "accuracy" doesn't matter. Approach shot accuracy does. You can get your driver as accurate as you want but if your approach shot accuracy doesn't go up (or goes down) it doesn't matter. The shot that actually matters for accuracy is the shot that is made into the green complex, not the shot that is made off the tee. There is obviously a point of diminishing returns here - you don't want to hook/slice off the golf course. But with the driver you want to be as long as you possibly can. You don't get extra points for hitting gorgeous drives straight up the middle 230 and hitting 6 iron when you could hit one a little left to 250 and hit 8 iron.



    Its a subtle difference, but its an important one. You have to be careful you arn't solving a problem that doesn't exist. Getting your driver "more accurate" and then not measuring the effect of that increased accuracy on your iron accuracy accomplishes nothing. If your driver accuracy helps your iron accuracy, that is wonderful, but usually (*usually*) a player, especially a mid-cap, will shoot a much lower score with a longer, wilder driver and shorter irons in their hands for approach shots, even if they are out of worse lies or around obstacles.



    You don't get to take off a half-stroke off for a straight drive. You could dramatically increase your accuracy by hitting pitching wedge off the tee. That is obviously a silly example, but it makes about as much sense as stepping back distance for accuracy. Its the same thing as switching to pitching wedge just on a smaller scale.



    Think about it. If you are shorter, you are more accurate. You're just hitting it shorter on the same line. Going from 260 in the rough to 240 in the fairway usually just means the mid-capper hit it less hard and, if you picked it up and moved it forward 20 yards on the same line, it isn't in the fairway anymore. This is fake accuracy. You can always get more accurate by slowing down because the ball travels less far on the same line. Your not getting more accurate, your just getting shorter (your clubface is still X* open/shut at impact).



    Cutting a few inches off your driver is a great idea IF it makes you longer (i.e. Jimmy Walker). Otherwise, just wallop it.



    If you tell me you are more accurate with the driver the question back is "So what? How much more accurate did that make your irons?" If you can't answer that question, the "more accurate" driver didn't do much except hit it shorter.
    how is playing from the rough better? you have already eliminated 1/2 the options on your 2nd shot when you have to play from one side of the course...makes no sense. Driver accuracy doesn't matter? huh????




    Depends on the rough now...right? The rough on my course requires GPS to find the ball....and when I do....it's an automatic chip-out. Rough to other folks could be like the first cut of the green.
    None
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784
    edited Mar 20, 2018 #1394


    we arent talking about the same issues.. youre fixing VW beetles and im building the next gen space shuttle.



    and i mean no harm saying that ... just mean to illustrate that telling me to hit 150 yard driver says that you dont get where im coming from .





    Im watched pretty close by a Mentor who is a PGA Master pro.... and his only advice is "Tempo Tempo tempo".... and he is correct.. the rest is between my ears.. and its best its ever been now.... I just love to argue, plus im naturally curious and self taught at everything... so i ask plenty of stupid questions ( no such thing) and ill mix it up with these guys... Ill take a snippet or two and make it fit me from time to time.. But i do not come here to fix my game... Im just shooting the breeze and chewing the fat so to speak..




    You're watched by a PGA Master Pro...but you're self taught? Yet you post about difficulty...then state you post and ask "plenty of stupid questions"...but don't want suggestions? I'm lost.
    None
  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,367 ✭✭
    edited Mar 20, 2018 #1395


    It is virtually impossible not to be affected by several well known biases and emotional influences when trying to weigh alternatives which entail large uncertainty.



    For instance nearly everyone will weight a low probability very aversive outcome more strongly than its actual likelihood warrants.



    We also tend to favor things we think of as offering near certainty over possibly advantageous alternatives that seem more iffy. Call that one the “devil you know” effect.



    So by all means make an “educated guess” about your best strategy off the tee. Just be aware that your “education” will end up being trumped by the fact we cannot think strictly logically and your “educated guess” will be hugely influenced by emotional reactions to things you are treating with the correct likelihood.



    Analytics is a term for gathering actual data on both likelihood and severity of good and bad outcomes thereby enabling us to make a cold, hard assessment of the actual costs and benefits of each alternative. But that’s a very dry and tedious undertaking so lots of people just arm wave it away as invalid because of this or that real or imagined “exceptions”.



    Which is another emotionally influenced bias, of course. We all think we are special and that we are not necessarily subject to the same rules that affect others!




    This is a fantastic post. I (I'll only speak for myself) don't claim to know the right choice for everyone. However, I believe that golfers in general are way too timid, and very poor golfers in general are way, WAY too timid. I think more aggression would result in handicaps going down, not up. I think people undervalue approach shots and overvalue putting in terms of how they spend their practice time.



    These are just things that might make you rethink how you approach the game - they arn't paint-by-number instructions for what club to use. Food for thought, if you will - that a lot of what golfers think about themselves just might be wrong.




    Serious question in that line.





    Tigers OB miss. Since he could reach ob with Driver and likely 3 wood. Wouldn't the play be 2 iron ?



    I'm not asking as a statement of my opinion. But what does the data say? Is there a hard fast line ? There must be , how can data be grey ? Does it literally say to hit the longest club that you can't reach trouble with ?



    I ask becouse I have trouble with anylitics because usually they have exceptions. When I see that I immediately think " well there goes the credibility of that ". I can make my own educated wild guess and probably average the same.




    There is not a hard and fast line. Well, there is, but we don't have a sophisticated enough computer to find out. We "know" the largest prime number, but we know their is a larger one the computer can't hold yet. Similarly, we can get very close to perfect, but we can't know if the answer is correct at the same time we know it.



    To use a real world example, take hole 8 at a local course. Its a fairly straightforward par 4. Bunker right, very slight dogleg left. Trees left. About 400 yards. The green has a back left tier that is virtually impossible to putt to unless you hit it on the tier itself - its severe downhill from all angles. The center pin location is over a center front bunker, and the right pin location is exposed and can be attacked easily. The center and right pins are on a big flat tier.



    So, if the flag is back left, hitting driver has marginal upside - you're not going to make the putt anyway unless you hit the tier, so your probably not gaining that many strokes going from 140 to 110. On the other hand, a right front location is the exact opposite PLUS if you hit driver when its right front a miss in the trees you can usually punch out and *still* have a birdie chance. So not only is it a more accessible pin location for a birdie putt, driver is actually much less punitive.



    The hole requires that you analyze all facets of both the hole and your own game and try to come up with the best you can, keeping in mind some general rules (closer is almost always better than further away, you can still miss with a 3 wood and nut a driver, a birdie is just as good as a bogey is bad, etc.... etc...). But these are just general rules. As far as Tiger's miss, he should shrug, realize you're gonna hit some driver's OB if you play a lot of golf, smile, and get a good dinner somewhere nice. If he notices it become a pattern, he should consider changing his strategy or practice habits. If he had 100 tries, I believe it most likely Driver gives him the most birdies. He needed a birdie, and he probably took the best option from a risk/reward perspective. It didn't work. He should do the exact same thing again next time, IF he believes it to be the best with his game and the hole. NOT get timid because he missed once.



    If golf could be figured out solely by analytics it would be chess and none of us would play it.
    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Ping G30 Hybrids 2 17*,  3 19*, 4 22* TFC 419 Stiff
    Pinhawk SL 5-SW +3 Up Apollo Stiff 115
    PM Grind 64*
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,111 ✭✭
    Donno wrote:



    we arent talking about the same issues.. youre fixing VW beetles and im building the next gen space shuttle.



    and i mean no harm saying that ... just mean to illustrate that telling me to hit 150 yard driver says that you dont get where im coming from .





    Im watched pretty close by a Mentor who is a PGA Master pro.... and his only advice is "Tempo Tempo tempo".... and he is correct.. the rest is between my ears.. and its best its ever been now.... I just love to argue, plus im naturally curious and self taught at everything... so i ask plenty of stupid questions ( no such thing) and ill mix it up with these guys... Ill take a snippet or two and make it fit me from time to time.. But i do not come here to fix my game... Im just shooting the breeze and chewing the fat so to speak..




    You're watched by a PGA Master Pro...but you're self taught? Yet you post about difficulty...then state you post and ask "plenty of stupid questions"...but don't want suggestions? I'm lost.








    lol...troll elsewhere... self taught is never ever meant by any person as 100% literal... one chimp watches another use a stick... did he teach himself ? yes and no..... I was less than 2 handicap when i met said pro and have never been above a 5... since you are fishing for a "brag"... He hasnt changed a thing in my swing..in fact stated the opposite... I know me and i own my swing... . just extra eyes for any tendencies i may have on any one day.. more of a pal that wants to see me play well...Things im speaking of here are of the course management and mental side... Im not asking for swing advice...
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784



    It is virtually impossible not to be affected by several well known biases and emotional influences when trying to weigh alternatives which entail large uncertainty.



    For instance nearly everyone will weight a low probability very aversive outcome more strongly than its actual likelihood warrants.



    We also tend to favor things we think of as offering near certainty over possibly advantageous alternatives that seem more iffy. Call that one the “devil you know” effect.



    So by all means make an “educated guess” about your best strategy off the tee. Just be aware that your “education” will end up being trumped by the fact we cannot think strictly logically and your “educated guess” will be hugely influenced by emotional reactions to things you are treating with the correct likelihood.



    Analytics is a term for gathering actual data on both likelihood and severity of good and bad outcomes thereby enabling us to make a cold, hard assessment of the actual costs and benefits of each alternative. But that’s a very dry and tedious undertaking so lots of people just arm wave it away as invalid because of this or that real or imagined “exceptions”.



    Which is another emotionally influenced bias, of course. We all think we are special and that we are not necessarily subject to the same rules that affect others!




    This is a fantastic post. I (I'll only speak for myself) don't claim to know the right choice for everyone. However, I believe that golfers in general are way too timid, and very poor golfers in general are way, WAY too timid. I think more aggression would result in handicaps going down, not up. I think people undervalue approach shots and overvalue putting in terms of how they spend their practice time.



    These are just things that might make you rethink how you approach the game - they arn't paint-by-number instructions for what club to use. Food for thought, if you will - that a lot of what golfers think about themselves just might be wrong.




    Serious question in that line.





    Tigers OB miss. Since he could reach ob with Driver and likely 3 wood. Wouldn't the play be 2 iron ?



    I'm not asking as a statement of my opinion. But what does the data say? Is there a hard fast line ? There must be , how can data be grey ? Does it literally say to hit the longest club that you can't reach trouble with ?



    I ask becouse I have trouble with anylitics because usually they have exceptions. When I see that I immediately think " well there goes the credibility of that ". I can make my own educated wild guess and probably average the same.




    There is not a hard and fast line. Well, there is, but we don't have a sophisticated enough computer to find out. We "know" the largest prime number, but we know their is a larger one the computer can't hold yet. Similarly, we can get very close to perfect, but we can't know if the answer is correct at the same time we know it.



    To use a real world example, take hole 8 at a local course. Its a fairly straightforward par 4. Bunker right, very slight dogleg left. Trees left. About 400 yards. The green has a back left tier that is virtually impossible to putt to unless you hit it on the tier itself - its severe downhill from all angles. The center pin location is over a center front bunker, and the right pin location is exposed and can be attacked easily. The center and right pins are on a big flat tier.



    So, if the flag is back left, hitting driver has marginal upside - you're not going to make the putt anyway unless you hit the tier, so your probably not gaining that many strokes going from 140 to 110. On the other hand, a right front location is the exact opposite PLUS if you hit driver when its right front a miss in the trees you can usually punch out and *still* have a birdie chance. So not only is it a more accessible pin location for a birdie putt, driver is actually much less punitive.



    The hole requires that you analyze all facets of both the hole and your own game and try to come up with the best you can, keeping in mind some general rules (closer is almost always better than further away, you can still miss with a 3 wood and nut a driver, a birdie is just as good as a bogey is bad, etc.... etc...). But these are just general rules. As far as Tiger's miss, he should shrug, realize you're gonna hit some driver's OB if you play a lot of golf, smile, and get a good dinner somewhere nice. If he notices it become a pattern, he should consider changing his strategy or practice habits. If he had 100 tries, I believe it most likely Driver gives him the most birdies. He needed a birdie, and he probably took the best option from a risk/reward perspective. It didn't work. He should do the exact same thing again next time, IF he believes it to be the best with his game and the hole. NOT get timid because he missed once.



    If golf could be figured out solely by analytics it would be chess and none of us would play it.




    ....."On the other hand, a right front location is the exact opposite PLUS if you hit driver when its right front a miss in the trees you can usually punch out and *still* have a birdie chance. So not only is it a more accessible pin location for a birdie putt, driver is actually much less punitive."



    Where are the trees on this 400 yard par 4 hole that someone can 'punch out' and still have a birdie chance? Is there some high % punch shot that can be holed out from 150? Maybe I missed something.
    None
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784

    Donno wrote:



    we arent talking about the same issues.. youre fixing VW beetles and im building the next gen space shuttle.



    and i mean no harm saying that ... just mean to illustrate that telling me to hit 150 yard driver says that you dont get where im coming from .





    Im watched pretty close by a Mentor who is a PGA Master pro.... and his only advice is "Tempo Tempo tempo".... and he is correct.. the rest is between my ears.. and its best its ever been now.... I just love to argue, plus im naturally curious and self taught at everything... so i ask plenty of stupid questions ( no such thing) and ill mix it up with these guys... Ill take a snippet or two and make it fit me from time to time.. But i do not come here to fix my game... Im just shooting the breeze and chewing the fat so to speak..




    You're watched by a PGA Master Pro...but you're self taught? Yet you post about difficulty...then state you post and ask "plenty of stupid questions"...but don't want suggestions? I'm lost.








    lol...troll elsewhere... self taught is never ever meant by any person as 100% literal... one chimp watches another use a stick... did he teach himself ? yes and no..... I was less than 2 handicap when i met said pro and have never been above a 5... since you are fishing for a "brag"... He hasnt changed a thing in my swing..in fact stated the opposite... I know me and i own my swing... . just extra eyes for any tendencies i may have on any one day.. more of a pal that wants to see me play well...Things im speaking of here are of the course management and mental side... Im not asking for swing advice...




    You're the troll. So full of **** it's not funny.
    None
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,111 ✭✭
    Donno wrote:


    Donno wrote:



    we arent talking about the same issues.. youre fixing VW beetles and im building the next gen space shuttle.



    and i mean no harm saying that ... just mean to illustrate that telling me to hit 150 yard driver says that you dont get where im coming from .





    Im watched pretty close by a Mentor who is a PGA Master pro.... and his only advice is "Tempo Tempo tempo".... and he is correct.. the rest is between my ears.. and its best its ever been now.... I just love to argue, plus im naturally curious and self taught at everything... so i ask plenty of stupid questions ( no such thing) and ill mix it up with these guys... Ill take a snippet or two and make it fit me from time to time.. But i do not come here to fix my game... Im just shooting the breeze and chewing the fat so to speak..




    You're watched by a PGA Master Pro...but you're self taught? Yet you post about difficulty...then state you post and ask "plenty of stupid questions"...but don't want suggestions? I'm lost.








    lol...troll elsewhere... self taught is never ever meant by any person as 100% literal... one chimp watches another use a stick... did he teach himself ? yes and no..... I was less than 2 handicap when i met said pro and have never been above a 5... since you are fishing for a "brag"... He hasnt changed a thing in my swing..in fact stated the opposite... I know me and i own my swing... . just extra eyes for any tendencies i may have on any one day.. more of a pal that wants to see me play well...Things im speaking of here are of the course management and mental side... Im not asking for swing advice...




    You're the troll. So full of **** it's not funny.




    goodness..... as much as id like to take the bait..I just dont have the energy.....trying to explain to you why i wouldnt see a benefit in rolling drivers 150yds is just too tiresome....its near bed time for me.... Ill leave you to continue to play with yourself...
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • DonnoDonno Members Posts: 784

    Donno wrote:


    Donno wrote:



    we arent talking about the same issues.. youre fixing VW beetles and im building the next gen space shuttle.



    and i mean no harm saying that ... just mean to illustrate that telling me to hit 150 yard driver says that you dont get where im coming from .





    Im watched pretty close by a Mentor who is a PGA Master pro.... and his only advice is "Tempo Tempo tempo".... and he is correct.. the rest is between my ears.. and its best its ever been now.... I just love to argue, plus im naturally curious and self taught at everything... so i ask plenty of stupid questions ( no such thing) and ill mix it up with these guys... Ill take a snippet or two and make it fit me from time to time.. But i do not come here to fix my game... Im just shooting the breeze and chewing the fat so to speak..




    You're watched by a PGA Master Pro...but you're self taught? Yet you post about difficulty...then state you post and ask "plenty of stupid questions"...but don't want suggestions? I'm lost.








    lol...troll elsewhere... self taught is never ever meant by any person as 100% literal... one chimp watches another use a stick... did he teach himself ? yes and no..... I was less than 2 handicap when i met said pro and have never been above a 5... since you are fishing for a "brag"... He hasnt changed a thing in my swing..in fact stated the opposite... I know me and i own my swing... . just extra eyes for any tendencies i may have on any one day.. more of a pal that wants to see me play well...Things im speaking of here are of the course management and mental side... Im not asking for swing advice...




    You're the troll. So full of **** it's not funny.




    goodness..... as much as id like to take the bait..I just dont have the energy.....trying to explain to you why i wouldnt see a benefit in rolling drivers 150yds is just too tiresome....its near bed time for me.... Ill leave you to continue to play with yourself...




    Dream on in bed about BS posts for tomorrow.
    None
  • mahoniemahonie Members Posts: 2,378 ✭✭

    mahonie wrote:


    mahonie wrote:


    That would assume you could hit every fairway with the 3-wood and miss every fairway with the driver.


    ...and that you hit the driver 70 yards further than the 3-wood.




    Right. Neither of those things are true, which is why that post doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.




    My original post was taken directly from the PGA Tour website...and yes, hitting driver 70 yards further than 3-wood doesn’t make sense. However, Tiger’s play on the 18th in the Valspar makes perfect sense in that he thought he had a better chance of getting down in two from 185 yards in the fairway than from 150 yards in the rough according to Strokes Gained analysis.




    *sigh*



    he didn't know before he hit the tee shot that the 3 wood would end up in the fairway and the driver would end up in the rough. he doesn't hit the fairway 100% of the time with 3 wood. if you could guarantee me that tiger would hit fairway with the 3 wood 100% of the time, then your analysis would make sense. you are not accounting for the scenario where he hits 3 wood in the rough, which happens some percent of the time, or the scenario where he hits driver in the fairway, which also happens some percent of the time.



    you may or may not be right or wrong, but your analysis is so simplistic as to be useless.




    Iirc, Tiger hit 2-iron on 18. Based on him hitting every fairway with his 2-iron on the day, I’m guessing that he had a fair idea that he would hit 18 as well. Based on the percentages and probabilities on the day, 2-iron was the play all day.
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
  • ByeBye Members Posts: 1,307 ✭✭
    I was once told that to be good at golf you either have to be really dumb or really cleaver. This thread has confirmed that the former is true for me.
    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 21 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
    Titleist Pro V1
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,769 ✭✭
    After watching Tiger dismantle Hoylake back in the day by playing “stinger” 2-irons followed by amazing 4-iron approach shots like Nicklaus or Hogan could never even dream of hitting,..Tiger gets a 100% free pass from me on all things course management. If he thinks 2-iron is the play, it’s the play.



    There are a few players who “test” or prove the rules that we think are generally true. Any “rule” we want to make up about laying up off the tee on very long holes needs some fine print to account for freaks like Tiger. If you are truly head and shoulders above even other elite golfers in hitting 220-yard iron shots that totally skews the balance of driver vs layup by lessening the downside of laying farther back.



    Put it this way. If you drive the ball like Sam Snead or Greg Norman, truly head and shoulders above your competition in combined distance/accuracy, then there is almost no situation where you hit driver and a reasonable spectator should think, “Oh nobody should ever hit driver here”! It’s the same when you are a Tiger-level long approach shot player. Hitting 2-iron on the 18th at Bay Hill may be totally wrong-headed for others but actually be favored by Tiger’s own (highly skewed) personal odds.
    Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,769 ✭✭
    Bye wrote:


    I was once told that to be good at golf you either have to be really dumb or really cleaver. This thread has confirmed that the former is true for me.




    I used to work with a guy grew up with Hal Sutton. He said he was a nice enough fellow and awesome golfer but was probably the guy whoever came up with that saying had in mind. See the flag, hit the ball at the flag was about as “cleaver” as ol’ Hal is ever going to get. Worked out pretty good for him.
    Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,111 ✭✭



    It is virtually impossible not to be affected by several well known biases and emotional influences when trying to weigh alternatives which entail large uncertainty.



    For instance nearly everyone will weight a low probability very aversive outcome more strongly than its actual likelihood warrants.



    We also tend to favor things we think of as offering near certainty over possibly advantageous alternatives that seem more iffy. Call that one the “devil you know” effect.



    So by all means make an “educated guess” about your best strategy off the tee. Just be aware that your “education” will end up being trumped by the fact we cannot think strictly logically and your “educated guess” will be hugely influenced by emotional reactions to things you are treating with the correct likelihood.



    Analytics is a term for gathering actual data on both likelihood and severity of good and bad outcomes thereby enabling us to make a cold, hard assessment of the actual costs and benefits of each alternative. But that’s a very dry and tedious undertaking so lots of people just arm wave it away as invalid because of this or that real or imagined “exceptions”.



    Which is another emotionally influenced bias, of course. We all think we are special and that we are not necessarily subject to the same rules that affect others!




    This is a fantastic post. I (I'll only speak for myself) don't claim to know the right choice for everyone. However, I believe that golfers in general are way too timid, and very poor golfers in general are way, WAY too timid. I think more aggression would result in handicaps going down, not up. I think people undervalue approach shots and overvalue putting in terms of how they spend their practice time.



    These are just things that might make you rethink how you approach the game - they arn't paint-by-number instructions for what club to use. Food for thought, if you will - that a lot of what golfers think about themselves just might be wrong.




    Serious question in that line.





    Tigers OB miss. Since he could reach ob with Driver and likely 3 wood. Wouldn't the play be 2 iron ?



    I'm not asking as a statement of my opinion. But what does the data say? Is there a hard fast line ? There must be , how can data be grey ? Does it literally say to hit the longest club that you can't reach trouble with ?



    I ask becouse I have trouble with anylitics because usually they have exceptions. When I see that I immediately think " well there goes the credibility of that ". I can make my own educated wild guess and probably average the same.




    There is not a hard and fast line. Well, there is, but we don't have a sophisticated enough computer to find out. We "know" the largest prime number, but we know their is a larger one the computer can't hold yet. Similarly, we can get very close to perfect, but we can't know if the answer is correct at the same time we know it.



    To use a real world example, take hole 8 at a local course. Its a fairly straightforward par 4. Bunker right, very slight dogleg left. Trees left. About 400 yards. The green has a back left tier that is virtually impossible to putt to unless you hit it on the tier itself - its severe downhill from all angles. The center pin location is over a center front bunker, and the right pin location is exposed and can be attacked easily. The center and right pins are on a big flat tier.



    So, if the flag is back left, hitting driver has marginal upside - you're not going to make the putt anyway unless you hit the tier, so your probably not gaining that many strokes going from 140 to 110. On the other hand, a right front location is the exact opposite PLUS if you hit driver when its right front a miss in the trees you can usually punch out and *still* have a birdie chance. So not only is it a more accessible pin location for a birdie putt, driver is actually much less punitive.



    The hole requires that you analyze all facets of both the hole and your own game and try to come up with the best you can, keeping in mind some general rules (closer is almost always better than further away, you can still miss with a 3 wood and nut a driver, a birdie is just as good as a bogey is bad, etc.... etc...). But these are just general rules. As far as Tiger's miss, he should shrug, realize you're gonna hit some driver's OB if you play a lot of golf, smile, and get a good dinner somewhere nice. If he notices it become a pattern, he should consider changing his strategy or practice habits. If he had 100 tries, I believe it most likely Driver gives him the most birdies. He needed a birdie, and he probably took the best option from a risk/reward perspective. It didn't work. He should do the exact same thing again next time, IF he believes it to be the best with his game and the hole. NOT get timid because he missed once.



    If golf could be figured out solely by analytics it would be chess and none of us would play it.




    Gotcha. So you think about it closer to me then. By that I mean from green backwards. And I get what you mean aboot the punch out too. You are just saying that the percentage is really the same at times for that particular hole since the pin placements are so different. A 75 -100 ( depending on how much dogleg you bite off ) yard rolling punch is pretty doable especially if it’s a green complex that has an opening and funnels to the center of the green.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,620 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 21, 2018 #1406


    After watching Tiger dismantle Hoylake back in the day by playing “stinger” 2-irons followed by amazing 4-iron approach shots like Nicklaus or Hogan could never even dream of hitting,..Tiger gets a 100% free pass from me on all things course management. If he thinks 2-iron is the play, it’s the play.



    There are a few players who “test” or prove the rules that we think are generally true. Any “rule” we want to make up about laying up off the tee on very long holes needs some fine print to account for freaks like Tiger. If you are truly head and shoulders above even other elite golfers in hitting 220-yard iron shots that totally skews the balance of driver vs layup by lessening the downside of laying farther back.



    Put it this way. If you drive the ball like Sam Snead or Greg Norman, truly head and shoulders above your competition in combined distance/accuracy, then there is almost no situation where you hit driver and a reasonable spectator should think, “Oh nobody should ever hit driver here”! It’s the same when you are a Tiger-level long approach shot player. Hitting 2-iron on the 18th at Bay Hill may be totally wrong-headed for others but actually be favored by Tiger’s own (highly skewed) personal odds.




    "Like Nicklaus or Hogan could never even dream of hitting"? Seriously?
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,769 ✭✭
    Yes seriously.



    Just ask Jack, he agrees.
    Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,620 ClubWRX


    Yes seriously.



    Just ask Jack, he agrees.




    Sure. I'll give him a call.
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,367 ✭✭


    Gotcha. So you think about it closer to me then. By that I mean from green backwards. And I get what you mean aboot the punch out too. You are just saying that the percentage is really the same at times for that particular hole since the pin placements are so different. A 75 -100 ( depending on how much dogleg you bite off ) yard rolling punch is pretty doable especially if it's a green complex that has an opening and funnels to the center of the green.




    Right. If your in the woods on that particular hole the trees are far enough apart that you can still realistically bounce it in close if you drive it in there and don't end up right behind a tree. So the pin placement determines optimal club choice IMO. Its way more complicated than "hit the longest club that keeps you out of trouble", IMO, which is what North Butte is saying. Analytics are signposts, guidelines. They arn't rules, and they can't be trusted in a vacuum. They are just an interesting objective data point because they can point to you *gasp* being wrong about your feel.



    Golf is a feel game. Unfortunately, your feel can be wrong. You can feel something and have that feel be incorrect. That's why its so hard. Analytics just give a way for players to say "whoa, I feel like hitting X, but maybe I should think about Y". That's all.
    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Ping G30 Hybrids 2 17*,  3 19*, 4 22* TFC 419 Stiff
    Pinhawk SL 5-SW +3 Up Apollo Stiff 115
    PM Grind 64*
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,620 ClubWRX



    Gotcha. So you think about it closer to me then. By that I mean from green backwards. And I get what you mean aboot the punch out too. You are just saying that the percentage is really the same at times for that particular hole since the pin placements are so different. A 75 -100 ( depending on how much dogleg you bite off ) yard rolling punch is pretty doable especially if it's a green complex that has an opening and funnels to the center of the green.




    Right. If your in the woods on that particular hole the trees are far enough apart that you can still realistically bounce it in close if you drive it in there and don't end up right behind a tree. So the pin placement determines optimal club choice IMO. Its way more complicated than "hit the longest club that keeps you out of trouble", IMO, which is what North Butte is saying. Analytics are signposts, guidelines. They arn't rules, and they can't be trusted in a vacuum. They are just an interesting objective data point because they can point to you *gasp* being wrong about your feel.



    Golf is a feel game. Unfortunately, your feel can be wrong. You can feel something and have that feel be incorrect. That's why its so hard. Analytics just give a way for players to say "whoa, I feel like hitting X, but maybe I should think about Y". That's all.




    I don’t understand PS, this sounds different than in the past. You’ve been pretty hardcore in that the stats are the final word. Have I been misinterpreting because if I have then we’ve debated over nothing. Because everything you posted there I agree with 100%, and I think is basically what I’ve been saying in these type threads all along.
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,367 ✭✭
    edited Mar 21, 2018 #1411




    Gotcha. So you think about it closer to me then. By that I mean from green backwards. And I get what you mean aboot the punch out too. You are just saying that the percentage is really the same at times for that particular hole since the pin placements are so different. A 75 -100 ( depending on how much dogleg you bite off ) yard rolling punch is pretty doable especially if it's a green complex that has an opening and funnels to the center of the green.




    Right. If your in the woods on that particular hole the trees are far enough apart that you can still realistically bounce it in close if you drive it in there and don't end up right behind a tree. So the pin placement determines optimal club choice IMO. Its way more complicated than "hit the longest club that keeps you out of trouble", IMO, which is what North Butte is saying. Analytics are signposts, guidelines. They arn't rules, and they can't be trusted in a vacuum. They are just an interesting objective data point because they can point to you *gasp* being wrong about your feel.



    Golf is a feel game. Unfortunately, your feel can be wrong. You can feel something and have that feel be incorrect. That's why its so hard. Analytics just give a way for players to say "whoa, I feel like hitting X, but maybe I should think about Y". That's all.




    I don’t understand PS, this sounds different than in the past. You’ve been pretty hardcore in that the stats are the final word. Have I been misinterpreting because if I have then we’ve debated over nothing. Because everything you posted there I agree with 100%, and I think is basically what I’ve been saying in these type threads all along.




    I think our disagreement comes from how much credit can be given to somebody sitting around and thinking "3 wood is my fairway finder" without any data or records to back it up. I think golfer's memories without data recorded during the round or some other objective source are pretty worthless. You don't, from what I understand. I think most golfers have a very off view of their own games and therefore would be better served to either 1. investigate for themselves or 2. assume they are normal. I think the worse the golfer the more off the off-the-cuff view is likely to be in terms of diverging from reality. So I'm big on either investigating your own game and going where that investigation leads or assuming you are normal and making decisions as if you are not an exception. I'm not big on golfers who sit around and think they are an exception ("i can't hit driver so i hit 3 wood which finds the fairway all day" *PSG eye roll*) but don't actually know.



    Taking notes on my rounds - especially what I'm thinking - then reviewing them for a few minutes with google earth afterwards has made me much better. Sometimes we make inexplicable decisions, especially during tournaments with blinders on, and reviewing those decisions is pretty important in my opinion. If I went to an event and hooked a third of my iron shots I'd want to fix the hook. If I made a third of my decisions poorly, I need to fix that, for the exact same reason - yet its almost impossible to remember accurately why you decided on certain strategies under pressure without notes or some sort of record. I think most (not all, and not some, most) golfers have a view of themselves in their head that isn't close to accurate.



    But we agree on the methodology on how decisions are made, I think.
    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Ping G30 Hybrids 2 17*,  3 19*, 4 22* TFC 419 Stiff
    Pinhawk SL 5-SW +3 Up Apollo Stiff 115
    PM Grind 64*
Sign In or Register to comment.