About Jordan's 100-yard-right drive vs some of the great Major collapses...

The thread with the posted satellite imagery of the location of Jordan's wayward drive really stimulated thought for me.

What are your thoughts on how Jordan's management of the 100-yard-to-the-right-drive and the smooth bogey compare to some of the great Major Championship collapses through the years that were a direct result of wild drives?

I'm not saying anything about it, and elsewhere said that I almost knew since Thursday Jordan was going to win it (my point being just that nothing about it bothers me and he deserved to win, and as he was in the midst of his birdie/eagle run, I was saying out loud "wow, this kid is good.").

So, having said that, there have been Open Championship collapses (the one I'm thinking of I think was due to a second shot slice and not the drive), and also other majors (Phil at Winged Foot in '06 wins if he hits the fairway), and I'm sure there've been others.

Like even if you just think about the Open Championship, how many 100-yard-right-slices would leave a player with a bogey? But if you extend it to all Majors, wouldn't some 100-yard-right-slices pretty much guarantee a minimum of a regulation double (because they'd be lost, OB, or so unbelievably-far away from the playing space of the hole)???

Again, good on the guy for winning. Somebody's gonna win anyway (I know I and maybe some people forget that, but for me it's more just that I want to see more golf and want a playoff so don't like seeing any winner because the tournament is over). But just 100% honestly a little surprised both that he hit a shot like that but also how it played out (NOT his drop, but how inconsequential hitting his tee shot that far right was).

But, just wanted people to offer their opinions on the topic of consequences of wild tee shots. Should Phil have been entitled to no trees and closely-mown grass? Or at courses with no trees should it simply be assumed and understood by both players and spectators and TV viewers that the lack of trees is going to mean that wild drives are not penalized, compared to how they once were penalized... or maybe not, I'm no Open Championship expert; have wild drives always kind of been an afterthought; ya know--for 156 or whatever of the worlds most gifted golfers--certainly maybe a bogey and some thinking?

Eager to hear what different members of the Tour Talk community think about this; definitely like hearing all opinions even if I disagree (but like I said, I'm not opining anything now, and actually mixed about what I think). I mean, on the one hand its nice when a course is forgiving and allows recovery from any single mistake (to a point, the game has to be fair, or it'd be impossible). On the other hand, at a Major I feel like it was understood the bar was raised kind of with all shots, but maybe that's really only true anymore at the US Open (in general) (and maybe always was the only one with that testing atmosphere).

To conclude, I guess talking about 100-yard misses. First, have any classic major collapses involved 100-yard misses (or less adjusted for club range, like a 50-yard miss with a 9-iron), and also if you look at the Open Championship (or other Majors if you wish, all as a whole with all courses considered), on how many holes would having your shot moved 100 yards to the right, at random (OK, or left I suppose), leave a pro golfer with just a solid bogey? (deep woods, brush, river, lake, ocean, tall grass, wild grass, farms, pasture, out-of-bounds, trees or topographical obstructions, directional confusion, private property, backyards, schoolyards, public streets, clubhouses, you get the point).

Though implying one opinion by posting these thoughts in the first place, I also think there's something to be said for the fact that any hole is what it is, is in front of the players, and any 100-yard miss, intentional or not, is what it is and there are good breaks and bad breaks in the game, both fair and unfair, and in and out of control of players. But then to look at the other side, still--100 yards?

It's like: me and some golf buddies have in the past discussed analogous topics, and things like sure pros make mistakes, have bad rounds, miss cuts, occasional doubles, whatever... But that some things pros NEVER do (it's too much to list, but for instance a quad or even triple bogey, a pro might not have all year or ever... a shank, not breaking 80, the list goes on, and a 100-yard-right-drive might sort of approach some of those categories). So it does occasionally happen, OK. But then should that, in spirit, have consequences to the pro bigger than it did?

When course designers design a hole do they even consider 100 yards off of the fairway? I know I don't on the PS4; I shape the fairway, add some trees and buildings, maybe some hills, and of course place the bunkers!... but 100 yards to the right even on a fantasy course is not considered for me.

Didn't he say something about his target being the middle of the right rough? So does that make his 100 yard miss more like 50?

Yes he was planning to hit it in the right rough as anything landing in the fairway rolled to the bunker. So, while he was off he wasn't 100 yards off his aim point

Ok, the shot itself makes much more sense now. I guess, then--in that case--a player should weigh the potential consequences of a miss and would themselves be prepared for it (regardless of what it would be).

And I suppose (obviously) he was well aware of what was to the right of the hole.

But yeah, the shot itself and the smooth handling (props to Jordan; an average amateur would make a mess of that) and/but also the apparent lack of more consequence, for a pro golfer.

I feel like pro golfers mentally with the spacial stuff are like in a different galaxy compared to amateurs. At Memorial TV coverage I heard Jack describing what he did mentally with EVERY TEE SHOT, assigning numbers to different bunkers and other places he didn't want to hit, and then that serving as some system for him.

I guess that level of focus and spatial risk-analysis is what is being talked about when it is said PRO golfers play a "mental game." I've thought in the past that anybody, even a weekend warrior, can be focused and think about their game on the course. Well, at least for me, certainly nowhere near that level of scouting out ALL the trouble spots on EVERY hole, assigning numbers to them, and.... well, truly remarkable to maintain that level of mental acuity for the whole round. Even if I had the physical skills/precision, the mental stuff would wear me out. I wouldn't even want to do that for one hole.

It'd be interesting to learn if since pros do ultimately play golf for a living, since they need that kind of focus and area-surveillance skills, I wonder if they decide just like any good employee at their job: "I CAN'T hit it left" (like we'd say: "I CAN'T miss this meeting," etc), I wonder if they have back-up, "fail-safe" procedures like doing something to their grip or stance (at an advanced level) to make a miss where they can't miss it either unlikely or nearly physically-impossible... Hmmm, and I bet they do.

So maybe going way out on a limb but maybe Jordan in fact didn't mind or didn't try to prevent himself from hitting the miss he did, wasn't surprised by it, and was fully prepared to deal with a possible unplayable lie over there.

It was a surprise for me, though, watching. To be fair, Rory hit a pull of almost the same magnitude that I also thought to myself: "pro golf shot?" But I'm sure he wouldn't have let that pull happen if it was a big problem.

To address these posts:

1. We have to remember most courses on planet Earth are not designed to test raw golfing ability. If courses were built to punish bad shots on a proportionate scale relative to the distance offline, golf would not be very fun.

2. Professional golfers only really make double bogeys when they have to take a penalty stroke (whether that is OB, hazard, unplayable, etc.). It would be pretty difficult to create a non-penalty stroke hazard where professional golfers would not be able to get away with at least a bogey. This means that if a pro hits a ball 100 yards offline, and the ball is hittable, the pro is rarely going to make worse than bogey. In cases such as Jordan, where an unplayable lie must be declared, the player will typically be happy to make bogey. A reasonable enough penalty IMO.

3. In the grand scheme of an entire golf course, 100 yards is not really that big of a distance. Although one cannot expect to miss it 100 yards off every tee and play relatively well, most courses have quite a few holes where missing it 100 yards offline results in a playable location (especially good courses).

4. I also think that we are more likely to see 100 yard misses on holes where such a miss results in a playable location. If left is dead, but a player can go an unlimited distance right without facing a penalty stroke, you can be sure there will be no balls left and a lot way right.

5. Yes majors have been lost with extreme misses all the time. Branden Grace blew the 2015 US Open at Chambers Bay on 16 (was tied for the lead) with a way right ob ball for a recent example.

When Jordan Spieth won the US Open in 2015, he had an extreme miss on the 17th hole as well. Think he missed the green by about 20 yards in really thick rough on a par 3. Ended up double bogeying the hole. He birdied 18 but it seemed like that might have cost him when Dustin Johnson was on the green in 2 on 18. But then, the infamous 3-putt happened.

No room for comments on a scorecard.....

I don't believe a guy holding the trophy at the end of a 72 hole tourney "collapsed"......

Yes he was planning to hit it in the right rough as anything landing in the fairway rolled to the bunker. So, while he was off he wasn't 100 yards off his aim point

Exactly. Fairways and greens aren't always good targets.

Phil's was certainly much worse in that it happened on the 72nd hole with the lead. I know he keeps saying it wasn't the drive that screwed him up, but the 2nd shot, but c'mon Phil, hit the fairway and you're a grand slam winner.

Obviously Spieth coming out on top makes his wayward drive less meaningful, but it has to go down as one of the all-time great bogies. Easily could have made double or worse.

Besides Van de Velde and Greg Norman, can you come up with a list of major "collapses"?? I mean, guys play bad and lose, but to narrow it down to a couple of shots is tough to do.

The troll is back. Thankfully his scorecard says nothing about a 'collapse'.

The thread with the posted satellite imagery of the location of Jordan's wayward drive really stimulated thought for me.

 

What are your thoughts on how Jordan's management of the 100-yard-to-the-right-drive and the smooth bogey compare to some of the great Major Championship collapses through the years that were a direct result of wild drives?

 

I'm not saying anything about it, and elsewhere said that I almost knew since Thursday Jordan was going to win it (my point being just that nothing about it bothers me and he deserved to win, and as he was in the midst of his birdie/eagle run, I was saying out loud "wow, this kid is good.").

 

So, having said that, there have been Open Championship collapses (the one I'm thinking of I think was due to a second shot slice and not the drive), and also other majors (Phil at Winged Foot in '06 wins if he hits the fairway), and I'm sure there've been others.

 

Like even if you just think about the Open Championship, how many 100-yard-right-slices would leave a player with a bogey? But if you extend it to all Majors, wouldn't some 100-yard-right-slices pretty much guarantee a minimum of a regulation double (because they'd be lost, OB, or so unbelievably-far away from the playing space of the hole)???

 

 

Again, good on the guy for winning. Somebody's gonna win anyway (I know I and maybe some people forget that, but for me it's more just that I want to see more golf and want a playoff so don't like seeing any winner because the tournament is over). But just 100% honestly a little surprised both that he hit a shot like that but also how it played out (NOT his drop, but how inconsequential hitting his tee shot that far right was).

 

 

But, just wanted people to offer their opinions on the topic of consequences of wild tee shots. Should Phil have been entitled to no trees and closely-mown grass? Or at courses with no trees should it simply be assumed and understood by both players and spectators and TV viewers that the lack of trees is going to mean that wild drives are not penalized, compared to how they once were penalized... or maybe not, I'm no Open Championship expert; have wild drives always kind of been an afterthought; ya know--for 156 or whatever of the worlds most gifted golfers--certainly maybe a bogey and some thinking?

 

Eager to hear what different members of the Tour Talk community think about this; definitely like hearing all opinions even if I disagree (but like I said, I'm not opining anything now, and actually mixed about what I think). I mean, on the one hand its nice when a course is forgiving and allows recovery from any single mistake (to a point, the game has to be fair, or it'd be impossible). On the other hand, at a Major I feel like it was understood the bar was raised kind of with all shots, but maybe that's really only true anymore at the US Open (in general) (and maybe always was the only one with that testing atmosphere).

 

 

To conclude, I guess talking about 100-yard misses. First, have any classic major collapses involved 100-yard misses (or less adjusted for club range, like a 50-yard miss with a 9-iron), and also if you look at the Open Championship (or other Majors if you wish, all as a whole with all courses considered), on how many holes would having your shot moved 100 yards to the right, at random (OK, or left I suppose), leave a pro golfer with just a solid bogey? (deep woods, brush, river, lake, ocean, tall grass, wild grass, farms, pasture, out-of-bounds, trees or topographical obstructions, directional confusion, private property, backyards, schoolyards, public streets, clubhouses, you get the point).

 

Though implying one opinion by posting these thoughts in the first place, I also think there's something to be said for the fact that any hole is what it is, is in front of the players, and any 100-yard miss, intentional or not, is what it is and there are good breaks and bad breaks in the game, both fair and unfair, and in and out of control of players. But then to look at the other side, still--100 yards?

 

It's like: me and some golf buddies have in the past discussed analogous topics, and things like sure pros make mistakes, have bad rounds, miss cuts, occasional doubles, whatever... But that some things pros NEVER do (it's too much to list, but for instance a quad or even triple bogey, a pro might not have all year or ever... a shank, not breaking 80, the list goes on, and a 100-yard-right-drive might sort of approach some of those categories). So it does occasionally happen, OK. But then should that, in spirit, have consequences to the pro bigger than it did?

 

When course designers design a hole do they even consider 100 yards off of the fairway? I know I don't on the PS4; I shape the fairway, add some trees and buildings, maybe some hills, and of course place the bunkers!... but 100 yards to the right even on a fantasy course is not considered for me.

Yes.

Seven.

That has to be in the running for the longest opening post to start a topic. Sorry, but I'm at work and don't have time to read it all. So, I don't know the answer because I don't know the question.

No room for comments on a scorecard.....

 

I don't believe a guy holding the trophy at the end of a 72 hole tourney "collapsed"......

I didn't call Jordan's Hole a collapse. I'm wondering how the shot compares to shots that caused collapses.

Never understood how WINNING is considered a collapse.

What happens after a less than perfect shot is what matters.

Sometimes knowing where to miss is more important than knowing where to hit it.

What collapse??? He walked off holding the Claret Jug!

My vote for the two biggest collapses would go to Van De Velde and Phil because they had the lead standing on the 18th tee. Either one could have hit irons all the way down the hole and won. However Norman's 1996 Masters is the all time collapse as he started the final round with a 6 shot lead and squandered it away with a crowd pleasing 78 when even par would have won him the green jacket.

Yes, he was ninety whatever yards from the center of the fairway, but that wasn't his target. Did you catch the intentional duck hook he hit on #16 that was basically the reverse of #13? The left rough was the target and he hit his target. Don't let the fairway fool you, they aren't always aiming at it.

Guys on tour blow drivers 50 yards left or right of their targets all the time. We see them with perfect lies in the wrong fairway on multiple occasions each weekend. Most of the courses they play aren't built for real estate, they are built for golf, and as such they have quite a few parallel holes where huge misses aren't penalized nearly as much as the average Joe out on his Saturday morning round.

It wasn't a collapse, he won.

Plenty of other guys have hit a terrible shot on the back 9 of a major on a Sunday. Some went on to win like Jordan, some didn't (Branden Grace's OB on 16(?) at the US Open in 2015?). It happens.

Never understood how WINNING is considered a collapse.

 

 

 

 

What happens after a less than perfect shot is what matters.

Did someone say WINNING?

No room for comments on a scorecard.....

 

I don't believe a guy holding the trophy at the end of a 72 hole tourney "collapsed"......

 

I didn't call Jordan's Hole a collapse. I'm wondering how the shot compares to shots that caused collapses.

Please read this reply, if you didn't see it.

I never said Jordan's wild tee shot was a collapse.

When is a 100 yard miss not a 100 yard miss?

No room for comments on a scorecard.....

 

I don't believe a guy holding the trophy at the end of a 72 hole tourney "collapsed"......

 

I didn't call Jordan's Hole a collapse. I'm wondering how the shot compares to shots that caused collapses.

 

Please read this reply, if you didn't see it.

 

I never said Jordan's wild tee shot was a collapse.

I'll answer the question. It only compares in how he handled it afterwards. For example Phil went for the hero shot and failed, if he would have thought clearly and played safe he would have won his US Open, in fact in the presser afterwards he admitted he was "stupid".

So it's not that you hit a bad shot, or how bad, it's how you deal with it, and it's knowing what kind of miss is acceptable. Tiger was horrible at hitting fairways on occasion as well, but he always seemed to get "lucky" as well, why? because he knew which side of the fairway you could miss it and get away with it. Hitting it OB or in a hazard is a bad miss, hitting it in rough is not. That being said the 13th was a pretty bad miss.....he day to take an unplayable, but he thought clearly and got through it with minimal damage. Phil did NOT, he blew the lead or a chance at playoff at Winged Foot.

No room for comments on a scorecard.....

 

I don't believe a guy holding the trophy at the end of a 72 hole tourney "collapsed"......

 

I didn't call Jordan's Hole a collapse. I'm wondering how the shot compares to shots that caused collapses.

 

Please read this reply, if you didn't see it.

 

I never said Jordan's wild tee shot was a collapse.

Who really knows what you said. That nearly 1000 word screed was unreadable.

Let's not forget that the tee shot, while aimed 50 yards right of the fairway, also hit some poor bastxxx in the noggin and ricocheted even further offline. Therefore, I'm not so sure his miss was really even 50 yards offline. Who knows.......the bottom line is he won, and won by 3 strokes, at that.

Didn't he say something about his target being the middle of the right rough? So does that make his 100 yard miss more like 50?

Seriously OP thinks he knows where Spieth was aiming. SMFH

Spieth's reaction while the ball was in the air did not indicate a "slight" miss. I don't buy for a second he wasn't aiming for the FW.

Thinking about it more, as far as a collapse, Rory's debacle on Sunday was certainly a collapse at the Masters, as well as Jordan's at the '16 Masters.

Spieth's reaction while the ball was in the air did not indicate a "slight" miss. I don't buy for a second he wasn't aiming for the FW.

 

Thinking about it more, as far as a collapse, Rory's debacle on Sunday was certainly a collapse at the Masters, as well as Jordan's at the '16 Masters.

I can't remember. Did Rory continue to crash and burn after #10, or did he rebound and nearly win anyway?

Serious question. Not being snarky. I'm getting old.

Ok. Here's what you're looking for. Colin Montgomery. Middle of 18th fairway at Winged Foot. 150yd fade 7iron to the 18th green from middle of the fairway. If he hits the green he wins. For a career fader, that's the easiest shot in the world.

Chunk fat stab into the front bunker. He makes bogey (double maybe?) and Ogilvy takes the title.

As more and more US golf courses take out trees (i.e. Oakmont) the wayward miss is going to be penalized less and less. In addition to this, it has always been the case, particularly in US Opens, that a miss 5 yards into the rough is often penalized more than a miss 20 yards into the rough due to the gallery trampling the grass down. All of this is just the "rub of the green" and a fun part of golf. Sometimes it works in your favor and other times not so much.

Had it been on 18 and he lost, I could understand, but he rallied better than anybody I've ever seen so he gets a pass for one bad swing IMO.

Worse but similar single shot collapses could include Greg Norman in the 86 Masters Sunday going 50 yards right from the fairway on 18 while tied for the lead with Nicklaus, Mickelson on 18 at Winged Foot, Monty on 18 at Winged Foot, and just about every else in contention aside from Ogilvy on 18 at Winged Foot.