Flat specs...who's got em?

 pearsonified ·  
pearsonifiedpearsonified Extreme enthusiastMembers  1823WRX Points: 123Handicap: 2.3Posts: 1,823 Platinum Tees
Joined:  in Hogan's Heroes Swing Forum #1
For 3 years I battled terribly inconsistent contact and had pretty much zero confidence I could hit the shots I was visualizing...



I took lessons; I got fitted; I even experimented with my own club specs and custom builds because I was so frustrated.



Then one day, after trenching yet another 3/4 wedge shot, I realized my most comfortable hand position was delivering the club with the heel down, causing that part of the sole to dig.



Fed up with everything, I decided to bend my wedge to 60º to see what would happen...



And it was like the doors to golf heaven opened up and beckoned me to come inside.



Chip shots got easier and more intuitive. Partial swings began to "just work." Full swings improved, and my contact started to feel the way I imagine it should.



Turns out I simply needed to go flatter—way flatter—than pretty much any fitter is ever prepared to go.



I now swing clubs that are between 3.5º-6º flatter than "standard," and I've never hit the ball better. (I could actually go flatter than this, but I cannot find any shops that will bend modern irons to the specs I want for fear of breaking them.)



I'm not really a Hogan guy, but I definitely prefer his tight right elbow position to the flying elbow of a Nicklaus or Bubba Watson. IMO, if you like a tight right elbow, you are probably a candidate for flatter specs.



As long as you're not shoving the toe into the ground, you really ought to go as flat as possible. Why? Club face control. Flatter lie angles force you to deliver the club from a more shallow position, and this reduces the amount of club face closure through impact.



Has anyone else here gone significantly flatter and seen a major ball-striking benefit?
Posted:
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Comments

  • PigemsPigems Members  10890WRX Points: 222Handicap: 8.8Posts: 10,890 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 5, 2017 #2
    I play my irons and wedges any where from 1-2.5*(Depending on the club) flat and a half inch short(I'm only 5'9"), I've been tempted to go flatter but haven't tried it yet. It definitely did help me though once I finally figured it out.
    Posted:
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  • pearsonifiedpearsonified Extreme enthusiast Members  1823WRX Points: 123Handicap: 2.3Posts: 1,823 Platinum Tees
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    I've been tempted to go flatter but haven't tried it yet.


    From late 2015 through early 2016, I played for 4 months with clubs that were 2º flat, but I noticed almost no benefit whatsoever. Turns out, 2º wasn't enough to get my hands as low as I like to have them through impact.



    In addition, you will often hear people say that a change in length also changes the effective lie angle. This is patently false. The lie angle doesn't change, but the height of your hands at impact does indeed change.



    Despite this, if the sole of the club still isn't flat on the ground at impact, your brain will seek to make a correction to allow the club to pass flatly through the turf. ("Corrections" include greater ulnar deviation at impact and a higher rate of club face closure—both of which you should seek to avoid.)



    IMO, you should continue to go flatter until your hands are "free" at impact. Once you feel freedom with the hands, you immediately realize how restricted your motion has become if you need to steepen the club at impact (due to lie angles that are too upright).
    Posted:
    TM SIM Max 10.5º •• Aldila Rogue Silver 110MSI 70x
    TM 2016 M2 3HL 16.5º •• Aldila NV 2KXV Orange 65x
    Callaway Apex 19 20º •• Project X EvenFlow Black Hybrid 6.5
    Adams CMB 4-P •• DGTI S400
    TM MG 50º/9º •• Project X LZ 5.5
    TM MG 54º/11º •• DG Wedge
    TM ATV Grind Tour Spin 60º •• KBS 105 Wedge
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Black 35"

    2018 Tournament Index: 2.56 (see results)
    2018 Tournament Anti: 7.76

    Current anti-handicap: 4.7
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1092WRX Points: 154Posts: 1,092 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 5, 2017 #4
    4 degrees flat from Mizzy specs here.
    Posted:
  • PigemsPigems Members  10890WRX Points: 222Handicap: 8.8Posts: 10,890 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #5

    I've been tempted to go flatter but haven't tried it yet.


    From late 2015 through early 2016, I played for 4 months with clubs that were 2º flat, but I noticed almost no benefit whatsoever. Turns out, 2º wasn't enough to get my hands as low as I like to have them through impact.



    In addition, you will often hear people say that a change in length also changes the effective lie angle. This is patently false. The lie angle doesn't change, but the height of your hands at impact does indeed change.



    Despite this, if the sole of the club still isn't flat on the ground at impact, your brain will seek to make a correction to allow the club to pass flatly through the turf. ("Corrections" include greater ulnar deviation at impact and a higher rate of club face closure—both of which you should seek to avoid.)



    IMO, you should continue to go flatter until your hands are "free" at impact. Once you feel freedom with the hands, you immediately realize how restricted your motion has become if you need to steepen the club at impact (due to lie angles that are too upright).




    Thanks for the info and luckily I can bend my own clubs. I'm definitely going to experiment more now, thanks for bringing this up image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
    910D2 9.5*- RIP Alpha 70x
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    712 CB 4i-Pw - S300
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    Studio Select NP2
  • robbohankrobbohank Members  261WRX Points: 0Handicap: 1Posts: 261
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    I've played irons that would be approximately 3 to 5 degrees flat from "standard" for the last decade or so. There is no standard anymore so it would depend on the particular manufacturer's specs. I was using Ping s59's in a red dot prior to going flatter. I agree with the OP's reasoning/benefits (although I think it's a function of swing technique AND body dimensions).



    I'm not a fitter but I am a believer in having your irons setup to where you're trying to "go" with your swing. You'll never be able to have lower hands thru impact if your clubs don't match up.
    Posted:
  • baloobaloo A Person WisconsinMembers  1093WRX Points: 135Posts: 1,093 Platinum Tees
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    I'm a taller guy, about 6'3". I play clubs in the 2-4* flat range. It's helped my iron play tremendously.

    I've done fittings a few times, and the only place that got it right was Taylormade Performance lab who fit me to 3* flat. The other times I've been told to do 1* upright.
    Posted:
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  • playaplaya Members  8756WRX Points: 282Posts: 8,756 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Dec 22, 2017 #8
    I just got my new irons 2 flat. Til the fitting I didn't know I needed flat lies. Still getting used to them so can't comment if performance has changed.
    Posted:
  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd Members  3311WRX Points: 160Handicap: 6Posts: 3,311 Titanium Tees
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    I'm about 4* flatter than Mizuno and 6* flatter than Titileist.
    Posted:
  • b_f_c_99b_f_c_99 No Warm Up Needed. Members  287WRX Points: 63Handicap: 4Posts: 287 Greens
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    I play 3 flat and half inch short which makes it effective 4 flat. My old partner was a club fitter. You can bend to anything you want if your willing to pull the shafts then heat up the hosel until it glows. He did that a lot for people, never broke a club doing that.
    Posted:
  • Fade to BlackFade to Black Members  3776WRX Points: 5Posts: 3,776 Titanium Tees
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    2* flat
    Posted:
    Driver: Callaway GBB 9.5* (Project X HZRDUS Black 76g 6.5X)
    Hybrid: Taylormade RBZ 19* (Fujikura Speeder TS H9.8)
    Irons: Callaway Apex'14 4-PW (DG X100)
    Wedges: Nike SV Tour (DG S400)
    Putter: Odyssey Tank Cruiser #7
    Balls: Srixon ZstarXV
  • mukstermukster A lot can happen in a year. North of the 49thMembers  3699WRX Points: 453Posts: 3,699 Titanium Tees
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    I bought a set of Nike Split Cavities on the BST here a few years ago and my ball striking improved tremendously. Took them to a fitter and they were 3° flat. Got fit at another time after that and the Ping guy recommended 0.75° flat.

    Currently play my Srixons at 2° flat.
    Posted:
    Callaway XR16 driver, 9 degrees, Diamana S+ shaft
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    Cobra F8 22* hybrid
    Srixon Z765 5-PW irons
    , KBS Tour V shafts
    Srixon A wedge 51° bent to 50°
    Hogan Equalizer 54* wedge
    Mizuno S18 58* wedge
    Nike Method Core Drone 2.0 putter
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  • alansmithdcalansmithdc Members  197WRX Points: 78Posts: 197 Fairways
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    Hogan played flat lies in order to keep his hands low through impact.

    Posted:
  • 11forgedblades11forgedblades Members  562WRX Points: 113Posts: 562 Golden Tee
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    On -, @pearsonified said:

    For 3 years I battled terribly inconsistent contact and had pretty much zero confidence I could hit the shots I was visualizing...

    I took lessons; I got fitted; I even experimented with my own club specs and custom builds because I was so frustrated.

    Then one day, after trenching yet another 3/4 wedge shot, I realized my most comfortable hand position was delivering the club with the heel down, causing that part of the sole to dig.

    Fed up with everything, I decided to bend my wedge to 60º to see what would happen...

    And it was like the doors to golf heaven opened up and beckoned me to come inside.

    Chip shots got easier and more intuitive. Partial swings began to "just work." Full swings improved, and my contact started to feel the way I imagine it should.

    Turns out I simply needed to go flatter—way flatter—than pretty much any fitter is ever prepared to go.

    I now swing clubs that are between 3.5º-6º flatter than "standard," and I've never hit the ball better. (I could actually go flatter than this, but I cannot find any shops that will bend modern irons to the specs I want for fear of breaking them.)

    I'm not really a Hogan guy, but I definitely prefer his tight right elbow position to the flying elbow of a Nicklaus or Bubba Watson. IMO, if you like a tight right elbow, you are probably a candidate for flatter specs.

    As long as you're not shoving the toe into the ground, you really ought to go as flat as possible. Why? Club face control. Flatter lie angles force you to deliver the club from a more shallow position, and this reduces the amount of club face closure through impact.

    Has anyone else here gone significantly flatter and seen a major ball-striking benefit?

    My clubs came from the factory 2 degrees flat. That's as far as the manufacturer would allow. They still seem upright to me. I feel like I have to come a little over the top and cover the ball in order to not have the heel dig. I want to really attack shallow and from the inside more. I'm going to have them bent another 2-3 degrees.

    Posted:
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    TITLEIST 585H (21*)-TTDG S300
    COBRA FLY Z PRO (5-PW)-TTDG S300
    TAYLOR MADE TP Z (56*)-TTDG S300
    BETTINARDI BABY BEN -33"
  • 11forgedblades11forgedblades Members  562WRX Points: 113Posts: 562 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Apr 7, 2019 #15

    How far can my irons be bent flat without damaging them? (Not too worried about the chrome finish) I have cobra fly z pros. Forged 1020 carbon steel.

    Posted:
    COBRA BIO CELL+ (9.5*)-MATRIX 8Q3 STIFF
    TITLEIST 585H (21*)-TTDG S300
    COBRA FLY Z PRO (5-PW)-TTDG S300
    TAYLOR MADE TP Z (56*)-TTDG S300
    BETTINARDI BABY BEN -33"
  • pearsonifiedpearsonified Extreme enthusiast Members  1823WRX Points: 123Handicap: 2.3Posts: 1,823 Platinum Tees
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    Those Cobras are pretty soft; bending another 2-3º should be no problem at all.

    Posted:
    TM SIM Max 10.5º •• Aldila Rogue Silver 110MSI 70x
    TM 2016 M2 3HL 16.5º •• Aldila NV 2KXV Orange 65x
    Callaway Apex 19 20º •• Project X EvenFlow Black Hybrid 6.5
    Adams CMB 4-P •• DGTI S400
    TM MG 50º/9º •• Project X LZ 5.5
    TM MG 54º/11º •• DG Wedge
    TM ATV Grind Tour Spin 60º •• KBS 105 Wedge
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Black 35"

    2018 Tournament Index: 2.56 (see results)
    2018 Tournament Anti: 7.76

    Current anti-handicap: 4.7
  • Matt JMatt J Members  8735WRX Points: 337Posts: 8,735 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #17

    I play pretty flat, but I find that it doesn't bother me to be closer to standard in the mid and long irons. I play almost all my clubs between 57 and 60 degrees. So, about -2 to -4.

    I think it's an allergy to the straight pull especially in wedges and short irons.

    Posted:
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  • pearsonifiedpearsonified Extreme enthusiast Members  1823WRX Points: 123Handicap: 2.3Posts: 1,823 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Matt J said:

    I play pretty flat, but I find that it doesn't bother me to be closer to standard in the mid and long irons. I play almost all my clubs between 57 and 60 degrees. So, about -2 to -4.

    This is actually quite normal on Tour—it's called progressive lie angles. Flatter on shorter clubs and more upright on longer clubs speaks to the way you use these clubs.

    Most people swing much harder with longer irons than they do with wedges (or other shorter clubs); my experience is that the easier you swing, the flatter you can go (and vice-versa).

    Posted:
    TM SIM Max 10.5º •• Aldila Rogue Silver 110MSI 70x
    TM 2016 M2 3HL 16.5º •• Aldila NV 2KXV Orange 65x
    Callaway Apex 19 20º •• Project X EvenFlow Black Hybrid 6.5
    Adams CMB 4-P •• DGTI S400
    TM MG 50º/9º •• Project X LZ 5.5
    TM MG 54º/11º •• DG Wedge
    TM ATV Grind Tour Spin 60º •• KBS 105 Wedge
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Black 35"

    2018 Tournament Index: 2.56 (see results)
    2018 Tournament Anti: 7.76

    Current anti-handicap: 4.7
  • Matt JMatt J Members  8735WRX Points: 337Posts: 8,735 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #19

    At least I share something with the pros :)

    If I tug a long iron a bit so be it. Not so with a wedge.

    I tweak mine at home so if I push or pull the same club 3 or 4 times it gets adjusted.

    Posted:
  • Darth LeverageDarth Leverage Members  805WRX Points: 45Posts: 805 Golden Tee
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    I'm 6ft 1 my nike vr pro are 4 degrees flat. other clubs just feel odd now

    Posted:
  • JD3JD3 Members  5043WRX Points: 400Posts: 5,043 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #21

    I bend em until they look right to me. Wedges usually come out about 2-3 degrees flat, long irons about 1 degree. I tried adjusting a hybrid 1 flat but didn't like what it did to the trajectory. So I just play hybrids and woods standard.

    Posted:
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  • Big BenBig Ben Members  9341WRX Points: 511Handicap: 5Posts: 9,341 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 26, 2019 #22

    3-4 flat here, 5’8 and vertically challenged! Titleist irons in particular seem incredibly upright. Be careful not to go over board then the toe will sag and dig. BB

    Posted:
    Irons: 19' Cobra CB's
    Drivers: Titleist TS3 & Cobra F9
    Fairway: Titleist 917F2
    Hybrid: A-Grind
    2 iron: Ping Rapture
    Wedges: Ping Gorge 2.0 Stealth's
    Putter: Evnroll 9.1
    Balls: ProV1
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  • PinklerPinkler Members  3WRX Points: 5Posts: 3 Starters
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    I've played irons too upright I think. Not sure what Standard is, but I know from looking at my videos that my hands are much higher than Hogan's. I don't know how Hogan worked his hands so low into impact. Does anyone know how he did this? or what the advantages might have been? Seems it would cause me to lose power.

    Posted:
  • ZAPZAP ClubWRX  1686WRX Points: 237Handicap: 4Posts: 1,686 ClubWRX
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    2 flat and 1/2 short

    Posted:
  • PinklerPinkler Members  3WRX Points: 5Posts: 3 Starters
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    I've played irons too upright I think. Not sure what Standard is, but I know from looking at my videos from behind, my hands come into impact much higher than Hogan's.

    I'm not sure how Hogan had his hands so low into impact. It seems more natural for the hands to come into impact higher.

    Posted:
  • BuzzkillBuzzkill Marshals  7097WRX Points: 532Handicap: 3Posts: 7,097 Marshals
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    3 flat for me!

    Posted:
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  • ALIFALIF ArizonaMembers  2774WRX Points: 342Posts: 2,774 Titanium Tees
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    Ping orange dot

    Posted:
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  • PinklerPinkler Members  3WRX Points: 5Posts: 3 Starters
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    Where is the best place to buy a set of flat irons? I assume an older or vintage set. Does anyone have a set or sets like this ready to game up?

    Posted:
  • rwc356rwc356 Chicago, IllinoisMembers  411WRX Points: 141Handicap: 12Posts: 411 Greens
    Joined:  #29

    1 deg flat (Ping red dot) has worked great for me over the years.

    Posted:
    Just an older guy with 7 or 8 clubs and a MacKenzie Sunday Walker bag
  • nitramnitram WestOK, on the South Canadian Riviera Members  5643WRX Points: 370Handicap: -.6Posts: 5,643 Titanium Tees
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    4-5* on irons and wedges.

    Posted:
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    Exotics CBX 22* Accra TZ5-95H
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  • laneholtlaneholt Members  736WRX Points: 100Posts: 736 Golden Tee
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    Pinkler,

    Every set of irons on the shelf are made 2-3 degrees upright. 99 % of buyers slice and upright clubs are a crutch and that sell clubs. These mfgts. are smart. Most any set of forged irons can be flattened except some Taylor Made With harder metals. Their are a few cast irons that can be flattened. I bought my own loft and lie machine BC mine are 4-5 degrees flatter than specified. ( some of their specs. Are ridiculously upright. )

    At last count their are 20 mfgts. Making beautiful forged irons and they are all basically the same. Irons haven’t changed much in 60 years. I probably own 20 sets of used forged irons. I refuse to pay a ridiculous price for a new set when I can buy a rarely used set for a couple hundred dollars that are just as good. Their is absolutely nothing in the face of an iron that is going to make the ball go farther except lowering the loft . PW aloft was originally 49 degrees . Now some are 44 degrees. Wonder why the 44 goes farther ???

    Lane

    Posted:

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