Titleist golf ball study; Finally, some facts added to the debate

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  • UhitUhit Members Posts: 861
    starsail85 wrote:

    Uhit wrote:



    it isnt nostalgia for me... i only started playing this game competitively in 2014.. i have no real memories of balata and persimmon.. i was around the game working at a course.. but didnt really play..




    Well, then I would assume, that you have seen things like that:



    https://www.youtube....h?v=NAGN-BV31Nw



    ...to come to the conclusion, that driving distance is very depending on the course conditions.





    Balls bouncing and running more than 50 yards, adding to the average driving distance.





    Or you may have read, that since 1980, the average driving speed on tour has increased from 104 mph to 113 mph in 2016. image/read.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':read:' />



    If you assume roughly 2.5 yards additional distance per mph, you get a distance gain from noticeably over 20 yards - solely based on the athletes capabilities to swing it faster...

    ...which is completely independent from the ball.




    Average swing speed is a massive massive deal .



    Now the courses are set up so you can't compete at 104mph so the average will continue to rise due to player characteristics eg power dictating success on Tour




    Yes, but that is a part of this game since it was invented.



    Also, in 1980, someone with a swing speed below 95 mph wouldn't have been competitive in a field, where the average is 104 mph...



    You need a bunch of skills, to be competitive - especially in golf - and a above average swing speed, with above average accuracy is of course needed, to score above average.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭
    By “junk stat” I mean it confuses what is important (what sort of second shot you are required to hit) with meaningless distinctions between being anywhere on the “fairway” versus anywhere not on the “fairway”.



    Nobody would want to play a course where being one foot off the “fairway” is just as bad as having to pitch out of the woods. Yet this junk stat considers the two to be equivalent.



    If you want courses set up where any ball even slightly off the designated “fairway” is going to require a pitch out, you are in a very small minority. Sounds like nostalgia for those awful USGA setups of the 80’s and 90’s when they butchered wonderful classic courses by having thin ribbons of fairway bordered by over-watered and over-fertilized knee deep rough. Yuck.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,262 ✭✭


    If you want courses set up where any ball even slightly off the designated “fairway” is going to require a pitch out, you are in a very small minority. Sounds like nostalgia for those awful USGA setups of the 80’s and 90’s when they butchered wonderful classic courses by having thin ribbons of fairway bordered by over-watered and over-fertilized knee deep rough. Yuck.




    Nope. Don't want that. But there is a lot of room between "must pitch out" and "easy to hit any club" rough.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭



    If you want courses set up where any ball even slightly off the designated “fairway” is going to require a pitch out, you are in a very small minority. Sounds like nostalgia for those awful USGA setups of the 80’s and 90’s when they butchered wonderful classic courses by having thin ribbons of fairway bordered by over-watered and over-fertilized knee deep rough. Yuck.




    Nope. Don't want that. But there is a lot of room between "must pitch out" and "easy to hit any club" rough.




    Exactly. And that room is totally ignored by looking at “fairways hit”, which makes it a useless stat.



    If you want to see a strong correlation between missing a “fairway” and scoring, that will only happen if the cours setup is butchered. After a few decades, even USGA finally wised up and quit trying to force that particular correlation.



    In the science of measurement, that sort in of silly, spurious thinking is called “reification” which means treating a poorly thought out statistic with a false sense of its importance, thereby reaching totally erroneous conclusions.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,382 ✭✭



    The top players are VERY accurate off the tee. They just hit it in the rough sometimes. "Fairways Hit" is a junk statistic. Keeping the ball in play consistently while driving it 300+ yards requires great directional control.



    P.S. Setting up a course to try to force a correlation between a junk statistic and scoring is a fool's errand. It can't possibly be accomplished without creating a pathologically warped version of the game.




    So I guess we are down to semantics. "Very accurate" can be defined however you choose. So let me restate; None of the top players hit their tee ball in the fairway as often as almost every other player on tour.



    Driving accuracy rank;



    DJ; 143

    JT; 162

    JS; 101

    JD; 172

    RM: 161



    I agree that today "fairways hit" is a junk statistic. But it shouldn't be. The penalty for missing a fairway should be more severe than it is today.
    Besides the great point that North Butte states about barely missing fairways please realize this. DJ at #143 sounds wildly inaccurate right? #143!!! And yet he misses on average just one and a half more fairways missed per round than #20. 1.5 or 1 1/2 fairways per round, that is it. Perhaps that is what makes fairways hit a junk stat that is irrelevant to scoring. All of the tour is relatively straight.
    WITB
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  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    Some common measurements of how accurate a player is, ranked by how misleading they are (most to least):



    1. Driving accuracy rank

    2. Driving accuracy %

    3. Distance from center of fairway in feet/inches

    4. Angular accuracy in degrees
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • XJaredXJared Members Posts: 526
    Long players will always be long.



    That being the case, if the goal is to keep older courses and those with limited real estate playable, why not partial bifurcation?



    NASCAR has restrictor plates for some tracks, why not have an Augusta ball, Merion ball, etc..?



    Handicaps aren't effected because pros don't keep them anyway.
  • Conrad1953Conrad1953 Members Posts: 15,048 ✭✭
    There's no problem finding courses for these guys to play. You roll back the ball now

    and these guys will be playing from the ladies tees......well, not quite....but they will

    have to "play it forward", lol.
  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,315 ✭✭
    XJared wrote:


    Long players will always be long.



    That being the case, if the goal is to keep older courses and those with limited real estate playable, why not partial bifurcation?



    NASCAR has restrictor plates for some tracks, why not have an Augusta ball, Merion ball, etc..?



    Handicaps aren't effected because pros don't keep them anyway.




    That is pretty much what Mike Davis is saying.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • tnordtnord Members Posts: 2,309 ✭✭
    edited Jan 1, 2018 #401
    the problem is not the pro game itself, evaluating what distance does to the tour, or how distance affects players and their earnings means almost nothing.



    the problem is the influence the pro game has on the weekend hacker.



    time to play and cost to play are universally acknowledged as the two biggest issues. the golf ball going farther has negative impacts on both....ask any architect or super. the individuals who don't want to lose any distance with a new ball spec likely won't see much change, as they're not maximizing the equipment anyway. but they're so worried about ego and only hitting it 190 vs 200 or whatever that they don't see the benefits to them personally and the game overall. long players will still be way past you, they'll just be 75 in front vs 100.



    the game of golf does not exist for the benefit of greedy manufacturers and their shareholders, even though the USGA has been a collective pile of cowards to their benefit.



    the only entity who the mfgs really can't fight is Augusta National. I really hope those guys have the courage to do the right thing for the good of the game.
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭
    edited Jan 1, 2018 #402
    Keep saying it as often as you like but it is simply not true. The courses we retail golfers play (you know, the cheap ones with no pretentions of attracting big-$$$ tournaments) are not and have not been lengthening to any meaningful extent. And nobody is building new non-big-$$$ courses for us unwashed mashes.



    So keep your claims about how stupid we are to yourself or either direct them correctly to the expensive clubs and resorts seeking to mingle with the elite. I know exactly what it means if my shots start going 190 instead of 210 yards, no thank you. Not remotely interested. And I know my own home course has not been lengthened in decades and won’t be lengthened in future no matter how far future Dustin Johnsons hit the ball.



    You want the ball rolled back I hopes of continuing to attract elite events to you own course, don’t expect Joe Sixpack to give up distance to serve your own ambitions.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • tnordtnord Members Posts: 2,309 ✭✭
    edited Jan 1, 2018 #403
    oh cheese and rice.....you again. image/russian_roulette.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':russian_roulette:' />



    i really don't care if you make the ball shorter, change the COR of the club itself, or what you do, but the flight characteristics have to change.
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭
    tnord wrote:


    oh cheese and rice.....you again. image/russian_roulette.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':russian_roulette:' />



    i really don't care if you make the ball shorter, change the COR of the club itself, or what you do, but the flight characteristics have to change.




    I personally love the distance and flight characteristics of current golf balls. But that’s just pursuing my own personal interest, as you might say
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • UhitUhit Members Posts: 861
    edited Jan 1, 2018 #405
    XJared wrote:


    Long players will always be long.



    That being the case, if the goal is to keep older courses and those with limited real estate playable, why not partial bifurcation?



    NASCAR has restrictor plates for some tracks, why not have an Augusta ball, Merion ball, etc..?



    Handicaps aren't effected because pros don't keep them anyway.




    If they can't sleep anymore if they don't mess with the ball...



    ...then they can allow for a local rule for certain tournaments to use a specific (Augusta etc.) Range ball, and they are done.



    No need for bifurcation, no need for an unhealthy, worldwide experiment on the expense of the average golfers etc.



    -



    Anyway, to touch the balls would favor a certain type of player - and I guess, that would be the chance to see for themselves, that it is no good idea to touch the ball.



    -



    However, there is no problem in regard of distance since the regulation 15 years ago:



    https://www.youtube....h?v=NAGN-BV31Nw
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    XJared wrote:


    Long players will always be long.



    That being the case, if the goal is to keep older courses and those with limited real estate playable, why not partial bifurcation?




    The key word there is "if".



    And what courses are no longer playable?
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    Uhit wrote:




    However, there is no problem in regard of distance since the regulation 15 years ago:




    Correct. And since there is no problem to solve, there is no need for a solution.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭

    Uhit wrote:




    However, there is no problem in regard of distance since the regulation 15 years ago:




    Correct. And since there is no problem to solve, there is no need for a solution.




    The real “problem” seems to be that some people would be perfectly happy if we were all still playing 220cc stainless steel drivers and rubber band wound balls. And they think Mike Davis is somehow going to roll the clock back and undo all the improvements they’ve been whining about for 15 years.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • ByeBye Members Posts: 1,309 ✭✭
    IT the same issue as with the anchored putter situation (should never have been allowed) it has been left too long, something should gave been done as soon as the distance gains were noticed.



    The Tours do have a problem in the next generation coming through. It has been mentioned on here before. The younger players are being trained how to swing like the long hitters.



    The average length of the courses on the PGA tour has only increased by about 50 yards since 2003. If they can't lengthen the courses then changing the set ups will only mean more players hitting long irons from tee which I doubt anyone wants to see. Making the fairways longer might help a bit, but will favour the players that fly it further.



    Out of the 3 options of do nothing, bifurcation or roll back for all, bifurcation should be avoided, it will raise prices and reduce choice.





    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 20 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭
    Bye wrote:


    The Tours do have a problem in the next generation coming through. It has been mentioned on here before. The younger players are being trained how to swing like the long hitters.




    It’s not a problem, creating clubhead speed is a solution to the fundamental equation of the game. How to get your ball from HERE into a hole WAY OVER THERE in as few strokes as possible. The obvious formula for doing it in less strokes than the other guy is to swing harder and hit it farther than him.



    What’s amazing is that so many supposedly in-the-know golfers and golf teachers were still pretending that wasn’t true as recently as when I took up the game in the early 90’s. It was an absolute commonplace of received “wisdom” that controlling the ball, shaping shots, avoiding mistakes and generally trying to outsmart the game was the key to success.



    Eventually those oh so clever “distance isn’t what really matters” people wised up and got tired of bringing knives to a gunfight.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • ByeBye Members Posts: 1,309 ✭✭

    Bye wrote:


    The Tours do have a problem in the next generation coming through. It has been mentioned on here before. The younger players are being trained how to swing like the long hitters.




    It’s not a problem, creating clubhead speed is a solution to the fundamental equation of the game. How to get your ball from HERE into a hole WAY OVER THERE in as few strokes as possible. The obvious formula for doing it in less strokes than the other guy is to swing harder and hit it farther than him.



    What’s amazing is that so many supposedly in-the-know golfers and golf teachers were still pretending that wasn’t true as recently as when I took up the game in the early 90’s. It was an absolute commonplace of received “wisdom” that controlling the ball, shaping shots, avoiding mistakes and generally trying to outsmart the game was the key to success.



    Eventually those oh so clever “distance isn’t what really matters” people wised up and got tired of bringing knives to a gunfight.




    It's not a problem for the players as most of the hazards won't be in play. Amazingly there are still a few people try to teach hitting it straight over long.



    Learning how to flight the ball is almost a dead art.



    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 20 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2.5
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  • UhitUhit Members Posts: 861
    Bye wrote:


    IT the same issue as with the anchored putter situation (should never have been allowed) it has been left too long, something should gave been done as soon as the distance gains were noticed.



    The Tours do have a problem in the next generation coming through. It has been mentioned on here before. The younger players are being trained how to swing like the long hitters.



    The average length of the courses on the PGA tour has only increased by about 50 yards since 2003. If they can't lengthen the courses then changing the set ups will only mean more players hitting long irons from tee which I doubt anyone wants to see. Making the fairways longer might help a bit, but will favour the players that fly it further.



    Out of the 3 options of do nothing, bifurcation or roll back for all, bifurcation should be avoided, it will raise prices and reduce choice.




    Yeah, who want's to see boring driving iron shots like this:







    -



    Well, there is also a forth, a fifth, a sixth, and a seventh option which is permanently ignored by some people:





    forth - simply change the setup of the courses, to avoid 30+ yards of bounce and roll - no super fast, and hard fairways, without the penalizing rough on both sides, that favors player with a accidental "members" bounce:



    https://www.youtube....h?v=NAGN-BV31Nw





    fifth - allow a local rule for specific tournaments to use distance restricted balls, club heads, club lengths, and / or lofts.





    sixth - give some other courses a chance to host a tournament, to strengthen the game golf in different regions





    seventh:



    a combination of these options





    No reason, no need, and no sense, to make a roll back, or bifurcation.
  • ByeBye Members Posts: 1,309 ✭✭
    Uhit wrote:

    Bye wrote:


    IT the same issue as with the anchored putter situation (should never have been allowed) it has been left too long, something should gave been done as soon as the distance gains were noticed.



    The Tours do have a problem in the next generation coming through. It has been mentioned on here before. The younger players are being trained how to swing like the long hitters.



    The average length of the courses on the PGA tour has only increased by about 50 yards since 2003. If they can't lengthen the courses then changing the set ups will only mean more players hitting long irons from tee which I doubt anyone wants to see. Making the fairways longer might help a bit, but will favour the players that fly it further.



    Out of the 3 options of do nothing, bifurcation or roll back for all, bifurcation should be avoided, it will raise prices and reduce choice.




    Yeah, who want's to see boring driving iron shots like this:







    -



    Well, there is also a forth, a fifth, a sixth, and a seventh option which is permanently ignored by some people:





    forth - simply change the setup of the courses, to avoid 30+ yards of bounce and roll - no super fast, and hard fairways, without the penalizing rough on both sides, that favors player with a accidental "members" bounce:



    [url="





    fifth - allow a local rule for specific tournaments to use distance restricted balls, club heads, club lengths, and / or lofts.





    sixth - give some other courses a chance to host a tournament, to strengthen the game golf in different regions





    seventh:



    a combination of these options





    No reason, no need, and no sense, to make a roll back, or bifurcation.




    4 has been covered, 5 would only work if they banned drivers, can't see the OEM's being very happy about that. 6 would need the sponsors being on board.



    Please no bifurcation. I would rather they left as is.



    banning drivers for a few events would be the cheapest way to see if a roll back is worth considering. Then at least an informed decision could be made. Unless they put a range ball core on a premium cover and see what happens for a few events. It might be more interesting to watch, it might not. Who really knows for sure.
    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 20 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2.5
    Titleist Pro V1
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    Bye wrote:


    The Tours do have a problem in the next generation coming through. It has been mentioned on here before. The younger players are being trained how to swing like the long hitters.




    Why is that a problem?
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,382 ✭✭
    It is a part of the lore of the game of golf that Bobby Jones said of a young Jack he played a game with which he, Jones, was not familiar. And yet for some reason it creates such angst that the same could be said of the modern generation by Jack.
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • tnordtnord Members Posts: 2,309 ✭✭
    edited Jan 2, 2018 #416
    reducing roll of the fairways does nothing for the increased carry that negates many hazards and obstacles put in place.



    bomb and gouge is dumb and boring, but it's where the mfgs have taken the game, and where the USGA has allowed it to go.



    narrowing and softening fairways and lengthening rough to "control" the long hitters? that's actually going to make a bigger impact on the guy that doesn't carry it 290, doesn't hit the fairway, and can't reach the green in two anyway. softening the fairways will give long hitters even more of an advantage.



    major championship courses used to play just over 6000yds, now they play around 7500. just because they didn't fix the problem during jack's era, doesn't mean they shouldn't fix it now.
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭
    If you forced every player on Tour to use a persimmon driver and a balata ball starting next week, I guarantee you they'd evolve a slightly modified version of the game you deride as "bomb and gouge". You can't get 'em back on the farm once they've seen the big city.



    Yes, scores would be higher using ancient crappy equipment. And as with any equipment change, some individual players would adapt better than others. But clubhead speed is an advantage in any era and nobody playing at the highest level today was raised under the old "distance doesn't matter, the game is all about control" nonsense being preached at them.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • tnordtnord Members Posts: 2,309 ✭✭
    scores are a secondary and distant concern.



    long hitters will always be long no matter the equipment, and they will always have something of an advantage. the suggestions to narrow and soften as a method for negating some of that advantage is actually going to have the opposite effect. sure, the distance numbers will be less, but the focus on bomb and gouge will be greater.



    the speed long hitters in tournament play swing with is a function of the forgiveness of the equipment in play. take away some of the forgiveness and the speed, and consequently distance will come down.
    TaylorMade 2017 M1 440 Speeder Evolution 757x
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    Mizuno MP4 3-P X100
    SM7 50F 54M 58M S400
    Bettinardi BB1
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭
    Distance will come down, yes. But they will still try to hit the ball as far as possible with limited equipment, as often as possible. What you call "bomb and gouge" is not a trend. It is simply the way an elite player can best accomplish his goal.



    So we're back to you simply wanting everyone, not just elite players, to hit the ball shorter in service of your own wishes. You want it to be easier and cheaper for your favorite courses to attract big-$$$ tournaments. All the stuff about changing the way the game is played is smokescreen.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,262 ✭✭
    tnord wrote:


    just because they didn't fix the problem during jack's era, doesn't mean they shouldn't fix it now.




    What problem is that?
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,884 ✭✭
    Was it also a "problem" when Bobby Jones was upending every assumption someone playing in the 1890's would have had about how the game could be played?



    And when it comes to golf courses, there were noted championship courses back in the hickory shaft era with Par 3 holes over 250 yards and Par 4's up in the 400's.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
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