ANGC Course Changes

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  • ChillyDipperChillyDipper Members Posts: 1,024 ✭✭
    Add a bunker short of #9 green. The slope there is a little comical. Lengthen #15 a bit so that it requires more than a 5 or 6 iron in for the big boys.
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,599 ✭✭
    There used to be an extra bunker short left
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  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    Oh get rid of the bunker on the outside of the dogleg on number 2.
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  • AjitAjit Posts: 1,392 ✭✭


    Add a bunker short of #9 green. The slope there is a little comical. Lengthen #15 a bit so that it requires more than a 5 or 6 iron in for the big boys.




    I think the committee decided a few years ago that too many players were laying up on 15 so they decided to soften the green complex. I know souped up Sergio hit 8 iron for his approach last year but Rose hit 4 iron which is probably more typical.
  • OrangeGravyOrangeGravy WAPosts: 1,132 ✭✭

    Ajit wrote:


    Nice thread.



    4 is too long

    7 is probably too long

    11 needs some trees removed on the right so that players are encouraged to try and cut the corner.

    13 probably needs to be toughened up, at the moment 10, 11 and 12 are the real Amen corner.




    I like 13 as it is. In my opinion, tough holes are not needed to be good holes. The excitement is driven by the scoring spread. It's exciting when scores from eagle to double bogey are in play. A tough hole where almost everybody makes par is boring.



    That's why #13 is a great hole. Last year there were six eagles, 128 birdies, 131 pars, 22 bogeys and five double bogeys. Almost the same number of double bogeys as eagles. That's exciting golf!!!!!!!!!!



    Yes, it's the easiest hole on the course but it's probably one of the top three in excitement.




    I like holes where birdie/bogey are pretty equal and it takes a great effort to save par if you get out of position. If you execute you should birdie. I hate pars. I'd rather see the winning score -50 than a bunch of pars. Birdies, eagles, bogeys and doubles please.
  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Posts: 1,921 ✭✭
    edited Mar 31, 2018 #67
    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



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  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭


    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



    Cfi6OvFW8AANIYL.jpg
    Haha good one. I can't believe they let Clifford do anything to the course.
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  • stu_manstu_man Posts: 555


    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



    Cfi6OvFW8AANIYL.jpg




    I believe Alister MacKenzie said his inspiration for this was the dining room table in the R&A clubhouse.



    I can't imagine what Bob Jones thought when he saw this.. what a disaster
  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Members Posts: 4,566 ✭✭
    swing is irrelevant, score is everything

    just say NO.... to practice swings
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,599 ✭✭
    stu_man wrote:



    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



    Cfi6OvFW8AANIYL.jpg




    I believe Alister MacKenzie said his inspiration for this was the dining room table in the R&A clubhouse.



    I can't imagine what Bob Jones thought when he saw this.. what a disaster




    I can't recall which pro did this, while also removing the mounds



    MacKenzie would be rolling over in his grave over that nonsense
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  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    cardoustie wrote:

    stu_man wrote:



    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



    Cfi6OvFW8AANIYL.jpg




    I believe Alister MacKenzie said his inspiration for this was the dining room table in the R&A clubhouse.



    I can't imagine what Bob Jones thought when he saw this.. what a disaster




    I can't recall which pro did this, while also removing the mounds



    MacKenzie would be rolling over in his grave over that nonsense
    It was Clifford Roberts. He thought the mounds obstructed the view of the Patrons, think it lasted one year
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  • QManyQMany #TheWRX ClubWRX Posts: 9,036 ClubWRX
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  • 15th Club15th Club Posts: 1,650 ✭✭
    edited Apr 3, 2018 #74
    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

    cardoustie wrote:

    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.



    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.




    The thing is that was a green side trap in design ... so move it up to left and front of green.



    With today's tech and their billions they can recreate it exactly and have it be beside the green as AM intended. It's pretty but it's not in play at all



    Fazio does good stuff but he's not a restoration guy and maybe now with Ridley at the helm it could shift that way !



    I think their changes to date are overall focused on adding yardage ... which is ok .. but not while also pinching everything in




    This is all true. All of the above posts have merit. #10 green was just over the Mackenzie Bunker, until (with pretty much everyone's approval) Perry Maxwell relocated it up into the hillside. It is one of the most beautiful and classic cape-and-bay bunkers in the world. But it is sadly not in play. Personally, I think it has been left where it is, for ANGC member play.
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,599 ✭✭
    15th Club wrote:

    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

    cardoustie wrote:

    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.



    stu_man wrote:


    They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10. That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.




    The thing is that was a green side trap in design ... so move it up to left and front of green.



    With today's tech and their billions they can recreate it exactly and have it be beside the green as AM intended. It's pretty but it's not in play at all



    Fazio does good stuff but he's not a restoration guy and maybe now with Ridley at the helm it could shift that way !



    I think their changes to date are overall focused on adding yardage ... which is ok .. but not while also pinching everything in




    This is all true. All of the above posts have merit. #10 green was just over the Mackenzie Bunker, until (with pretty much everyone's approval) Perry Maxwell relocated it up into the hillside. It is one of the most beautiful and classic cape-and-bay bunkers in the world. But it is sadly not in play. Personally, I think it has been left where it is, for ANGC member play.




    Imagine if all the traps had the original MacKenzie shaping ? For me anyways, that would be incredible



    If you google the old layouts and MacKenzie's original routing, there are lots of very cool traps that look just like the trap left behind on 10. (And I understand some of them were visuals only)



    Good lord, arguably the most beautiful inland course on the planet would get even better



    I love the old bunker 100 yards short of 18 green in the middle of the fairway with a sod circle in the center of it
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  • 15th Club15th Club Posts: 1,650 ✭✭


    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



    Cfi6OvFW8AANIYL.jpg






    I don't understand the comment that accompanies this picture. The picture, from about 1956 or so, is of the Eighth green after one of the few changes to the golf course that was personally and privately initiated by Clifford Roberts, who was not an architect. (Roberts approved and denied a great many suggested changes that were proposed by a great many architects and players; this one was on him alone.) And Roberts' reason for this horrible design aberration had nothing to do with the quality of play; rather, it was to provide spectators with better sightlines from the area around the green.



    As this David Owen blog-post makes clear, Jones and others were furious over the Roberts change that really did go against the intent of the course's original design:



    http://www.myusualgame.com/tag/jamboree/



    As far as I can tell, the commenter who posted that picture had no idea about its meaning and history. The change in the Eighth green that is so easy to ridicule in that old photograph is much like the changes we are often seeing made to golf courses to combat technology (balls)- produced distance gains. Like changing a hole for spectator sightlines, changes made to guard against technologically-produced distance are rarely good, often destructive and even more often fraught with unintended consequences. It's best that golf course architecture not be left to club chairmen or golf ball manufacturer executives. Instead, leave it to architects.
  • 15th Club15th Club Posts: 1,650 ✭✭
    More from David Owen, on the earliest history of the Tenth Hole:



    http://www.myusualgame.com/2014/02/17/masters-countdown-tenth-hole/
  • AjitAjit Posts: 1,392 ✭✭
    https://nolayingup.com/2018/04/01/nlu-podcast-episode-131-andy-johnson-augusta-national/



    Good chat about the course changes with Soly from No Laying Up and Andy from the Fried Egg.
  • hollabachgthollabachgt Members Posts: 640 ✭✭
    15th Club wrote:



    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



    Cfi6OvFW8AANIYL.jpg






    I don't understand the comment that accompanies this picture. The picture, from about 1956 or so, is of the Eighth green after one of the few changes to the golf course that was personally and privately initiated by Clifford Roberts, who was not an architect. (Roberts approved and denied a great many suggested changes that were proposed by a great many architects and players; this one was on him alone.) And Roberts' reason for this horrible design aberration had nothing to do with the quality of play; rather, it was to provide spectators with better sightlines from the area around the green.



    As this David Owen blog-post makes clear, Jones and others were furious over the Roberts change that really did go against the intent of the course's original design:



    http://www.myusualga...m/tag/jamboree/



    As far as I can tell, the commenter who posted that picture had no idea about its meaning and history. The change in the Eighth green that is so easy to ridicule in that old photograph is much like the changes we are often seeing made to golf courses to combat technology (balls)- produced distance gains. Like changing a hole for spectator sightlines, changes made to guard against technologically-produced distance are rarely good, often destructive and even more often fraught with unintended consequences. It's best that golf course architecture not be left to club chairmen or golf ball manufacturer executives. Instead, leave it to architects.




    ...Or the previous poster was simply speaking tongue in cheek
  • 15th Club15th Club Posts: 1,650 ✭✭


    ...

    ...

    ...

    ...Or the previous poster was simply speaking tongue in cheek




    I think the commenter was trying to be sarcastic, but doing a terrible job of it since it proved the opposite point. (If there ever was a point.)
  • johnnyprojohnnypro Members Posts: 1,847 ✭✭
    First order of business is to lengthen 13.

    Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.
  • 15th Club15th Club Posts: 1,650 ✭✭
    johnnypro wrote:


    First order of business is to lengthen 13.

    Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.




    It's so convenient, that ANGC has a spare $25 or $30 mil, to buy a chunk of ACC, move their Ninth hole, and build a new tee that lengthens the hole by 30, 40, 50, 60 or more yards. Easy; no problem.
  • stu_manstu_man Posts: 555
    johnnypro wrote:


    First order of business is to lengthen 13.

    Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.




    The only ridiculous drive on that hole was Bubba in 2014.. The hole is perfect now. It will not be near as good if they change it.
  • hollabachgthollabachgt Members Posts: 640 ✭✭
    15th Club wrote:



    ...

    ...

    ...

    ...Or the previous poster was simply speaking tongue in cheek




    I think the commenter was trying to be sarcastic, but doing a terrible job of it since it proved the opposite point. (If there ever was a point.)




    I simply saw it that the were advising against change for change sake, and the danger that can come from ill informed changes.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,056 ✭✭
    johnnypro wrote:


    First order of business is to lengthen 13.

    Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.




    Why do you care about the number on the bottom of the club?
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,599 ✭✭
    i think a book about all the changes hole by hole at Augusta (with lots of pics) would be a great coffee table book (props to Cosmo Kramer)
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  • RangeballzRangeballz Posts: 1,646 ✭✭
    Restore #7 to the short par 4 that it was originally.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,056 ✭✭
    stu_man wrote:

    johnnypro wrote:


    First order of business is to lengthen 13.

    Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.




    The only ridiculous drive on that hole was Bubba in 2014.. The hole is perfect now. It will not be near as good if they change it.




    I agree. It might be the most entertaining hole on the course. Last year the eagles and double bogeys were about equal. On Sunday there were three eagles and three double bogeys. I hope they don't change it at all.
  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Posts: 1,921 ✭✭
    15th Club wrote:



    They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent. Other than that, I think it's great.



    Cfi6OvFW8AANIYL.jpg






    I don't understand the comment that accompanies this picture. The picture, from about 1956 or so, is of the Eighth green after one of the few changes to the golf course that was personally and privately initiated by Clifford Roberts, who was not an architect. (Roberts approved and denied a great many suggested changes that were proposed by a great many architects and players; this one was on him alone.) And Roberts' reason for this horrible design aberration had nothing to do with the quality of play; rather, it was to provide spectators with better sightlines from the area around the green.



    As this David Owen blog-post makes clear, Jones and others were furious over the Roberts change that really did go against the intent of the course's original design:



    http://www.myusualga...m/tag/jamboree/



    As far as I can tell, the commenter who posted that picture had no idea about its meaning and history. The change in the Eighth green that is so easy to ridicule in that old photograph is much like the changes we are often seeing made to golf courses to combat technology (balls)- produced distance gains. Like changing a hole for spectator sightlines, changes made to guard against technologically-produced distance are rarely good, often destructive and even more often fraught with unintended consequences. It's best that golf course architecture not be left to club chairmen or golf ball manufacturer executives. Instead, leave it to architects.




    I'm not surprised in the least that it went over your head. Well done.
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  • playaplaya Members Posts: 8,713 ✭✭


    Widen 7, cut down the trees on the right on 11. Get rid of any rough and cut down a bunch of trees elsewhere. Get more run out of the fws. Make it so when guys hit it offline it keeps going so the angles at ANGC really come into play, this would encourage more aggressive play which would lead to more birdies and bogeys.





    The Masters are at its peak when it favors the bold, nothing worse than a Masters with a bunch of pars. I want birdies, eagles, and others. That's why I don't like 11, with the trees right the approach is so long that everyone just bails short right because they are scared to chase anything on with the mounds.


    Agree that bold play should be encouraged. Nothing worse than an Immelman or a Zach Johnson win layingup to 13 and 15 all week.
  • playaplaya Members Posts: 8,713 ✭✭

    stu_man wrote:

    johnnypro wrote:


    First order of business is to lengthen 13.

    Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.




    The only ridiculous drive on that hole was Bubba in 2014.. The hole is perfect now. It will not be near as good if they change it.




    I agree. It might be the most entertaining hole on the course. Last year the eagles and double bogeys were about equal. On Sunday there were three eagles and three double bogeys. I hope they don't change it at all.


    Totally. Most of the biggest moments and biggest roars every Masters Sunday come on 13 and 15, and plenty of big oohs and ahhs. I think they've got the risk/reward equation just right on 13, don't change a thing.
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