PGA Junior League All-Stars - New Rules

13

Comments

  • Golfingdawg19Golfingdawg19 Members Posts: 411 ✭✭✭✭

    @BloctonGolf11 said:

    @Golfingdawg19 said:
    The crazy part about all of the junior league stuff is the teams are made up kids who aren’t even from the clubs they represent. They literally just recruits kids from all over to stack their teams. The really good teams recruiting on a level like Alabama does in football. A couple of years ago they had the California coach on the PGA radio. The guy ran his own academy and hand picked which kids were in the academy thus dictating who was on the all star team.

    This right here is where the dark side of Jr. League comes in. We have yet to see it in Alabama as both the Birmingham and Huntsville areas do not recruit the metro area into a single league to produce a "Super All-Star" team. It means more kids get to make it to All-Stars but they are typically not going to do well once they reach a point in the playoffs.

    If you don’t recruit then you will get beat. As you said, it’s the dark side of junior league. I’m watching the first stage of it right now and they are allowing the boys under 12 and all girls to play up tees. That gives an advantage to some of the younger kids and girls. If you make it to the second stage then everyone plays from the same tees. So really all stars is about getting elite 13 year olds on your team.

  • BloctonGolf11BloctonGolf11 Members Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭

    @Golfingdawg19 said:

    @BloctonGolf11 said:

    @Golfingdawg19 said:
    The crazy part about all of the junior league stuff is the teams are made up kids who aren’t even from the clubs they represent. They literally just recruits kids from all over to stack their teams. The really good teams recruiting on a level like Alabama does in football. A couple of years ago they had the California coach on the PGA radio. The guy ran his own academy and hand picked which kids were in the academy thus dictating who was on the all star team.

    This right here is where the dark side of Jr. League comes in. We have yet to see it in Alabama as both the Birmingham and Huntsville areas do not recruit the metro area into a single league to produce a "Super All-Star" team. It means more kids get to make it to All-Stars but they are typically not going to do well once they reach a point in the playoffs.

    If you don’t recruit then you will get beat. As you said, it’s the dark side of junior league. I’m watching the first stage of it right now and they are allowing the boys under 12 and all girls to play up tees. That gives an advantage to some of the younger kids and girls. If you make it to the second stage then everyone plays from the same tees. So really all stars is about getting elite 13 year olds on your team.

    No doubt. The trouble comes in that in our league we try to hold true to the introducing the game to younger and beginner kids mantra. However, this means a lot of times the really good players get a bit burnt out by the time they reach 11 or 12 years old and opt out of continuing with the program. In our league if we had everyone stick with it in 2 years we would have a pretty stacked roster of very stout 11-13 year olds but we keep losing kids.

    Just a father and son on a journey together through golf....
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 21, 2019 4:57pm #64

    For an event that has zero impact on anything other than a kids (or parent's) ego it seems like there is a ton of effort being put into winning.

    One of the kids on last year's winning team lived 90 miles from their San Diego club.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • BloctonGolf11BloctonGolf11 Members Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭

    @leezer99 said:
    For an event that has zero impact on anything other than a kids (or parent's) ego it seems like there is a ton of effort being put into winning.

    One of the kids on last year's winning team lived 90 miles from their San Diego club.

    I am not surprised, I have heard stories of even longer distances traveled to be part of a "league". However, when we are talking about being on TV people will go to great lengths. Personally, my son just loves the team aspect of it that he doesn't get in other competitions. Plus, he has loved the transition from being one of the kids needing the help the first years to being one of the ones relied upon to help new players this year.

    Just a father and son on a journey together through golf....
  • BobTheGooseBobTheGoose Members Posts: 7 ✭✭

    It’s not true to say zero impact. The kids who play in the final each will get 1 or more AJGA performance stars. I heard two kids got some equipment deals last year partially because they played well in national games.

    @leezer99 said:
    For an event that has zero impact on anything other than a kids (or parent's) ego it seems like there is a ton of effort being put into winning.

    One of the kids on last year's winning team lived 90 miles from their San Diego club.

  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 315 ✭✭✭✭

    @Golfingdawg19 said:
    The crazy part about all of the junior league stuff is the teams are made up kids who aren’t even from the clubs they represent. They literally just recruits kids from all over to stack their teams. The really good teams recruiting on a level like Alabama does in football. A couple of years ago they had the California coach on the PGA radio. The guy ran his own academy and hand picked which kids were in the academy thus dictating who was on the all star team.

    My daughter played on what I suppose will be the team representing Georgia. I can say most of the players do not call TPC Sugarloaf their home club (we are not). I’m unaware, frankly, of any overt “scouting” or “recruiting” that is done for that team, aside from one of the coaches also running the local USKG tour. Just about all of them, to my knowledge, live in the immediate metropolitan area. It’s 15 min away for us, so quite frankly, it’s just about the closest team.
    My club doesn’t have a team, either because there aren’t enough kids to fill it, or our club pros don’t care to support it. A member of the PGAJL team shared her experience from a previous season on another club’s team. The competition was highly variable, and often they would show up to compete against half a squad.
    Enrollment for our team is open. It’s not intentionally a group of all stars. We have the best in the country, and we have beginners. My daughter is younger, so I had no dreams of her making playoffs. I wanted her to get an opportunity to play with, an witness, some very very good golf. To that end, it’s was successful. As a shorter hitter, each week she would be paired with one of the older kids. I am still impressed with how polite and encouraging each of them were to her. The parents were supportive as well. As for the playoff team, I believe less than half were hand picked, and the remaining 6 battled for spots on a playoff round.
    In my eyes, our PGAJL experience was exactly what we were looking for. An opportunity to have fun, but be challenged. If the stronger kids didn’t have the incentive to play against nationally ranked opponents, on a national stage, I’m not sure they ever would have been in a position to play a round with my daughter. We will most likely sign up again next summer, and possibly this Fall, too.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BertGA said:

    @Golfingdawg19 said:
    The crazy part about all of the junior league stuff is the teams are made up kids who aren’t even from the clubs they represent. They literally just recruits kids from all over to stack their teams. The really good teams recruiting on a level like Alabama does in football. A couple of years ago they had the California coach on the PGA radio. The guy ran his own academy and hand picked which kids were in the academy thus dictating who was on the all star team.

    My daughter played on what I suppose will be the team representing Georgia. I can say most of the players do not call TPC Sugarloaf their home club (we are not). I’m unaware, frankly, of any overt “scouting” or “recruiting” that is done for that team, aside from one of the coaches also running the local USKG tour. Just about all of them, to my knowledge, live in the immediate metropolitan area. It’s 15 min away for us, so quite frankly, it’s just about the closest team.
    My club doesn’t have a team, either because there aren’t enough kids to fill it, or our club pros don’t care to support it. A member of the PGAJL team shared her experience from a previous season on another club’s team. The competition was highly variable, and often they would show up to compete against half a squad.
    Enrollment for our team is open. It’s not intentionally a group of all stars. We have the best in the country, and we have beginners. My daughter is younger, so I had no dreams of her making playoffs. I wanted her to get an opportunity to play with, an witness, some very very good golf. To that end, it’s was successful. As a shorter hitter, each week she would be paired with one of the older kids. I am still impressed with how polite and encouraging each of them were to her. The parents were supportive as well. As for the playoff team, I believe less than half were hand picked, and the remaining 6 battled for spots on a playoff round.
    In my eyes, our PGAJL experience was exactly what we were looking for. An opportunity to have fun, but be challenged. If the stronger kids didn’t have the incentive to play against nationally ranked opponents, on a national stage, I’m not sure they ever would have been in a position to play a round with my daughter. We will most likely sign up again next summer, and possibly this Fall, too.

    Agree with you here that a club 15 minutes away is perfectly within a normal range especially if your club doesn't put up a team. My son was recruited to a team a couple of years ago but it just didn't make sense to me to drive 45 minutes in metropolitan traffic to play the same kids on the same course for five or six weeks while matches were going on. Neither of our all star teams made it past the second round.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BobTheGoose said:
    It’s not true to say zero impact. The kids who play in the final each will get 1 or more AJGA performance stars. I heard two kids got some equipment deals last year partially because they played well in national games.

    @leezer99 said:
    For an event that has zero impact on anything other than a kids (or parent's) ego it seems like there is a ton of effort being put into winning.

    One of the kids on last year's winning team lived 90 miles from their San Diego club.

    There is zero performance stars from AJGA associated with PGA Jr. League. Those equipment deals also do not come out of PGA JR. League. The equipment deals come out of performing well on a state and national level. If you are top 100 in your class you will get those deals, if you are not then you won't.

  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 9,063 ClubWRX

    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 315 ✭✭✭✭

    @kekoa said:
    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

    Congrats, hope you make it to the big show!

  • Golfingdawg19Golfingdawg19 Members Posts: 411 ✭✭✭✭

    @kekoa said:
    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

    I was at the first round of the all stars yesterday and the boys under 12 got to play a forward tee and so did all the girls. I was told that this was just in place for the first round of the playoffs. I like the idea because it allows some of the younger kids to help out. Without the forward tees, it seems like you need a team of all 13 year olds to have a chance.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @kekoa said:
    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

    All Stars is a lot of fun.

    Everyone is supposed to play from the same set of tees.

  • Golfingdawg19Golfingdawg19 Members Posts: 411 ✭✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kekoa said:
    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

    All Stars is a lot of fun.

    Everyone is supposed to play from the same set of tees.

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kekoa said:
    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

    All Stars is a lot of fun.

    Everyone is supposed to play from the same set of tees.

    Evidently they changed it this year for the first round. Our coach said that they didn’t do it last year. The logic is there are some teams at the first round who aren’t that good so this modification will help them. Everyone plays the same tees from the second round on.

  • Belmont148Belmont148 Members Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Makes zero sense to play from different tees. Don’t see the point there except to satisfy a few complaining club pros to keep them in the program.

    Current Bag:

    G400 SFT 10* Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60TS
    F8+ 4W- HZRDUS Black 75 Stiff
    Ping G25 3H and 4H Stock R Flex
    Ping I200 5-UW Project X LZ 5.5
    Glide Stealth 54SS and 58ES Project X LZ 5.5
    Scotty Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • Putter11Putter11 Members Posts: 3

    Good luck to the rest of the country but no way does Team Georgia (Atlanta) not win this event ! We shall see !! Crazy talent.

  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 9,063 ClubWRX

    @Putter11 said:
    Good luck to the rest of the country but no way does Team Georgia (Atlanta) not win this event ! We shall see !! Crazy talent.

    Im just glad my son made it with a team of talented older kids. Let me enjoy a few minutes of glory lol

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Golfingdawg19 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kekoa said:
    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

    All Stars is a lot of fun.

    Everyone is supposed to play from the same set of tees.

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kekoa said:
    My son was picked for the All Star team. I don't really have high hopes, but he is pretty excited. I hear the kids that are 11 and under play forward tees in the area of 2,200. I'm not sure if that is correct or not especially if they start to advance past the sectional qualifier. My son would have a good chance if he is paired with a bomber as his iron and putting is pretty good.

    All Stars is a lot of fun.

    Everyone is supposed to play from the same set of tees.

    Evidently they changed it this year for the first round. Our coach said that they didn’t do it last year. The logic is there are some teams at the first round who aren’t that good so this modification will help them. Everyone plays the same tees from the second round on.

    Stupid decision as many instituted for PGA Jr. League over the years have been. What is the cut off of age and how is it determined? So you get a kid like a Dunham and he is able to move up and drive greens in the first round. Could take out a team they aren't better than but because of the distance issue may be able to beat them because they are driving par 4's and wedging in on Par 5's.

  • Belmont148Belmont148 Members Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    We had an 11yo on our squad that could drive the green at 200+ yards playing the forward jr league tees. I could see this for girls only, but no boys should be playing forward tees. Heck, if I was a boy playing I would refuse. Most boys want to go back in tees, not forward. Don't know many boys that like playing it up like a girl personally.

    Current Bag:

    G400 SFT 10* Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60TS
    F8+ 4W- HZRDUS Black 75 Stiff
    Ping G25 3H and 4H Stock R Flex
    Ping I200 5-UW Project X LZ 5.5
    Glide Stealth 54SS and 58ES Project X LZ 5.5
    Scotty Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 205 ✭✭✭

    @Belmont148 said:
    We had an 11yo on our squad that could drive the green at 200+ yards playing the forward jr league tees. I could see this for girls only, but no boys should be playing forward tees. Heck, if I was a boy playing I would refuse. Most boys want to go back in tees, not forward. Don't know many boys that like playing it up like a girl personally.

    Our last tournament at 11yo, everyone drove 200+. Still not long enough as our club is stacked with 13yo boys who are driving 300. Those 250 par 4s? It's a 5 iron in one stroke.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 23, 2019 9:20pm #81

    @mrshinsa said:

    @Belmont148 said:
    We had an 11yo on our squad that could drive the green at 200+ yards playing the forward jr league tees. I could see this for girls only, but no boys should be playing forward tees. Heck, if I was a boy playing I would refuse. Most boys want to go back in tees, not forward. Don't know many boys that like playing it up like a girl personally.

    Our last tournament at 11yo, everyone drove 200+. Still not long enough as our club is stacked with 13yo boys who are driving 300. Those 250 par 4s? It's a 5 iron in one stroke.

    Really? I am around 11-16 year old boy's all the time. Kid played in the State Junior a couple of weeks ago. Practice rounds with 18 year olds. Distances off the tee are often fabricated. I only know a handful of kids, even 18 year olds, that are actually driving the ball 300. I have only ever seen a couple of 11 year olds drive it over 200. Not saying it isn't true, just saying that it is highly unlikely. My 14 year old has driven the ball over 280 yards. Doesn't mean he drives the ball 280 yards. Average 14 year olds are going to be 250- 275 depending on conditions.

    My kid played with my father in law a few days ago. Father in law was boasting how his grandson was driving the ball 300. I just chuckled.

    Post edited by heavy_hitter on
  • golfer55082golfer55082 Members Posts: 307 ✭✭✭✭

    “My kid played with my father in law a few days ago. Father in law was boasting how his grandson was driving the ball 300. I just chuckled.”
    :smile:
    Interesting discussion. Last year they had a long drive competition at PGA Jr National and I think there are a few kids drove over 300 yards. Not carry, but total distance. I remember it’s down hill after the common landing area, no wind, and some elevation help in Arizona.

  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    edited Jul 23, 2019 5:29pm #83

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @mrshinsa said:

    @Belmont148 said:
    We had an 11yo on our squad that could drive the green at 200+ yards playing the forward jr league tees. I could see this for girls only, but no boys should be playing forward tees. Heck, if I was a boy playing I would refuse. Most boys want to go back in tees, not forward. Don't know many boys that like playing it up like a girl personally.

    Our last tournament at 11yo, everyone drove 200+. Still not long enough as our club is stacked with 13yo boys who are driving 300. Those 250 par 4s? It's a 5 iron in one stroke.

    Really? I am around 11-16 year old boy's all the time. Kid played in the State Junior a couple of weeks ago. Practice rounds with 18 year olds. Distances off the tee are often fabricated. I only know a handful of kids, even 18 year olds, that are actually driving the ball 200. I have only ever seen a couple of 11 year olds drive it over 200. Not saying it isn't true, just saying that it is highly unlikely. My 14 year old has driven the ball over 280 yards. Doesn't mean he drives the ball 280 yards. Average 14 year olds are going to be 250- 275 depending on conditions.

    My kid played with my father in law a few days ago. Father in law was boasting how his grandson was driving the ball 300. I just chuckled.

    Oh, boy. Here we go with the distance thing again. :s
    One of the 11 year old finalist for DCP is in our local tour. He's about average in distance and was hitting 190 last winter on wet grass. . Boys 11 seems to be right around 200 and change in the summer. Boys 12 had 50+ on my son at our 11/12 IMG qualifier. 11/12 seems to be when they start to go through their growth spurt.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @golfer55082 said:
    “My kid played with my father in law a few days ago. Father in law was boasting how his grandson was driving the ball 300. I just chuckled.”
    :smile:
    Interesting discussion. Last year they had a long drive competition at PGA Jr National and I think there are a few kids drove over 300 yards. Not carry, but total distance. I remember it’s down hill after the common landing area, no wind, and some elevation help in Arizona.

    Do they drive it 300 or is it because of conditions? If mine is playing 430 yard par 4 up hill he is Driver and barely getting to the front of the green with a 3 wood. If he is 430 downhill he is driver and 7/8 iron. My kid is also a short knocker. Still hasn't gone through puberty.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @golfer55082 said:
    “My kid played with my father in law a few days ago. Father in law was boasting how his grandson was driving the ball 300. I just chuckled.”
    :smile:
    Interesting discussion. Last year they had a long drive competition at PGA Jr National and I think there are a few kids drove over 300 yards. Not carry, but total distance. I remember it’s down hill after the common landing area, no wind, and some elevation help in Arizona.

    DCP Finals.

    10-11 year old year best drive 240 and low end 160. Only 4 kids over 200
    12-13 year old best was PJ Maybank at 268. Only 3 kids over 250.
    14-15 year old best 247.

    I don't see these 300 yard knockers that everyone thinks is hitting it 300. It just isn't happening unless the conditions are favorable.

  • golfer55082golfer55082 Members Posts: 307 ✭✭✭✭

    “Do they drive it 300 or is it because of conditions?” Conditions definitely helped especially the big roll after landing. But overall I believe there are a few 13 years old kids out there we can genuinely hit at around 300 yards - about 270+ yards carry and 110mph club speed. Not mine but I witnessed a couple.

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 24, 2019 2:16am #87

    @golfer55082 said:
    “Do they drive it 300 or is it because of conditions?” Conditions definitely helped especially the big roll after landing. But overall I believe there are a few 13 years old kids out there we can genuinely hit at around 300 yards - about 270+ yards carry and 110mph club speed. Not mine but I witnessed a couple.

    There are two things I see.

    1. most people have no clue between carry and roll. With roll it is all about conditions. Carry is all that matters. You can’t control or always count on roll that much.
    2. For kids that do drive far there are peak drives and average drives the two are not the same. For instance a kid may actually drive 280 or 300 but is not going sustain that for a round average is probably 240-250. If they actually do try and go all out the average will probably end up closer to 200 because there too tired.
  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭

    @mrshinsa said:

    @Belmont148 said:
    We had an 11yo on our squad that could drive the green at 200+ yards playing the forward jr league tees. I could see this for girls only, but no boys should be playing forward tees. Heck, if I was a boy playing I would refuse. Most boys want to go back in tees, not forward. Don't know many boys that like playing it up like a girl personally.

    Our last tournament at 11yo, everyone drove 200+. Still not long enough as our club is stacked with 13yo boys who are driving 300. Those 250 par 4s? It's a 5 iron in one stroke.

    250 5 iron?! No no no...

  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    edited Jul 24, 2019 3:55am #89

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @mrshinsa said:

    @Belmont148 said:
    We had an 11yo on our squad that could drive the green at 200+ yards playing the forward jr league tees. I could see this for girls only, but no boys should be playing forward tees. Heck, if I was a boy playing I would refuse. Most boys want to go back in tees, not forward. Don't know many boys that like playing it up like a girl personally.

    Our last tournament at 11yo, everyone drove 200+. Still not long enough as our club is stacked with 13yo boys who are driving 300. Those 250 par 4s? It's a 5 iron in one stroke.

    250 5 iron?! No no no...

    Yellowlover, you're right. I didn't think that sound right either. I verified with my son who was competing against the older kids, and says it was 200 yards, not 250. I apologize if I made you spill coffee. o:)

  • JuniorGolfParentJuniorGolfParent Members Posts: 57 ✭✭

    There are quite a few 11yo boys who can drive 200+ (carry + roll total) consistently. It is definitely above average in length, but not exceptional.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @tiger1873 said:

    @golfer55082 said:
    “Do they drive it 300 or is it because of conditions?” Conditions definitely helped especially the big roll after landing. But overall I believe there are a few 13 years old kids out there we can genuinely hit at around 300 yards - about 270+ yards carry and 110mph club speed. Not mine but I witnessed a couple.

    There are two things I see.

    1. most people have no clue between carry and roll. With roll it is all about conditions. Carry is all that matters. You can’t control or always count on roll that much.
    2. For kids that do drive far there are peak drives and average drives the two are not the same. For instance a kid may actually drive 280 or 300 but is not going sustain that for a round average is probably 240-250. If they actually do try and go all out the average will probably end up closer to 200 because there too tired.

    There is a lot of truth to this statement.

    Kid met with instructor this morning to get on the flight scope to adjust his driver to optimal settings. He calls me to tell me his first drive with the new settings was a 246 carry with a total of 260 something. His average was 230 carry with a 248 total over the amount of drives he hit. In certain conditions he can throw a good number out there. He played at Trump National Doral and hole 1 is a par 5 on the Red Tiger. Down wind and fairways run. All 3 days he was over 280. That does not mean he drives the ball 280.

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