Joel Dahmen accuses Kang of cheating

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  • Bingo1976Bingo1976 Posts: 2,493 ClubWRX
    TheInfidel wrote:


    But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%.




    Recent experience should teach us all that there are people in far more important positions than a PGA tour pro who tweet billy bollocks lies all day long.


    sekrah wrote:


    Kang cheating might have kept Tiger out of the Bridgestone unless he goes Top 10 at the Open.




    Alleged cheating. And alleged karma from TPC a few years back...
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  • eagle1997eagle1997 Members Posts: 18,048 ✭✭


    I think JD is saying he did not hit the ball that far. It draw as your yellow line suggests, but didn't carry far enough to get up by the green.






    shot tracker has SK hitting the ball 239 yards. SK dropped well back of that point, where he thought it crossed. JD's claim is that the ball's flight never crossed the hazard line where he dropped.



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  • jonsnowjonsnow GeorgiaMembers Posts: 1,205 ✭✭
    Ferguson wrote:

    jonsnow wrote:

    bscinstnct wrote:


    giphy.gif




    Are they playing Duck, Duck, Rangoon?






    The 5 D's of Duck, Duck Rangoon:

    Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive and Dodge




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  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Posts: 397 ✭✭
    edited Jul 2, 2018 #65
    TheInfidel wrote:


    TheInfidel wrote:



    Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.



    Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?




    Do you even play golf? Seriously.



    The game is built on integrity and honesty. Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct. Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first. But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%. There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.




    Ok. I'll bite. Yes big guy I play golf. Can you read? I didn't say there was bias. I Said. Someone could say there was bias.



    The Only thing I said was. Saying someone cheated is a strong thing to say.




    The point I was making off the back of your comment is that I think it's wrong to assume that his motive was ranking/$$$ driven. That's not really something you see in pro golfers.






    While I agree with that, it leaves open the question as to why Kang would have cheated. Surely, that would have been ranking and $$$ driven as well. Maybe he did it for sh!ts and g!ggles, but I doubt it.



    So that kind of flies in the face of your "have you even played golf" and "integrity" points.



    Five things:
    1. I believe there are cameras running on every hole. How else do we get to see some low-level player hole out from the fairway on occasion?
    2. Dahmen should not have used the word cheater. That's a really serious charge. Especially hours later on Twitter when he should have calmed down. He should have said something along the lines of "I was sure it never crossed the hazard line there".
    3. Shot Tracker doesn't show curves.
    4. It's really hard to say exactly where a ball crossed the hazard line from > 200 yds away. Especially if both the ball and the line have curves, and the ball is still up in the air. At least it is for me.
    5. Dahmen should never, NEVER have signed the card if he's going to call him a cheat. Like not ever. Never.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHPosts: 3,015 ✭✭
    jonsnow wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:

    jonsnow wrote:

    bscinstnct wrote:


    giphy.gif




    Are they playing Duck, Duck, Rangoon?






    The 5 D's of Duck, Duck Rangoon:

    Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive and Dodge




    I love that movie. "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."




    There's actually footage of the Kang/Dahmen incident on ESPN 8, "The Ocho."
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  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,191 ✭✭
    ^^^ I agree with this. If you disagree with a ruling and want to rant about it....be my guest i suppose. But the language you use is very important, he can say he disagreed with the ruling and was overruled.



    But he can't call someone a cheater when an official blessed what happened and he signed the scorecard. He comes of like a bitter twitter idiot, and as mentioned Kang would be within his rights to at least threaten to come back at him for libel. especially given that endorsements are such a big part of player income and reputation matters in this space.
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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,268 ✭✭
    There are people that cheat all the time and get to the point that is just how they play golf and they don't even think of it as cheating.



    I'll give Kang the benefit of doubt, since it's really tough to judge things like this at times. Either one of those guys could have things like astigmatisms that have been corrected and their depth perceptions could be messed up.
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  • NPVWhizNPVWhiz Members Posts: 1,976 ✭✭
    edited Jul 2, 2018 #69
    This is an unfortunate situation for both of them. It looks bad for Dahmen for simply not understanding how it was going to play out in the end. It's up to the player's judgment, that's the way it plays out with the official in the absence of other good evidence. Especially on tour, with all the cameras, is it reasonable to assume Kang would run that risk of overplaying his hand?



    That's the way Dahmen should have thought about it at the time. There were good prospects for some other evidence to come out if it really was a bad drop, but I can recall lots of other instances of this happening on tour. Even if you're absolutely sure in your own mind, you have to realize that in those circumstances you're making the call that you're 100% correct and the other guy is mistaken, even though the odds you're wrong are as high as the probability that the other player is actually correct. His responsibility and best option was to let the Tour official know that he felt the ball flight was different, but in those circumstances Dahmen can't be as sure of the ball flight as he apparently thinks he is. It was a mistake to take to Twitter to call him a cheater. You have to give a fellow player the benefit of the doubt in that set of circumstances. It's terrible to have a reputation as a cheat on Tour, but having a reputation for bad judgment is probably in the same ballpark when it comes to your relationships with other players. Who wouldn't want to avoid being paired with that guy if you're not driving it straight that day? It's one thing to be a stand up guy. It's entirely different to be a guy that stands up at the wrong time, and doesn't know the difference.



    When you attest to someone's score, that's supposed to mean something as well. If he hadn't signed the card, at least I'd really get the sense he was standing for something he really believed in. I'd much rather have seen him just say, "I didn't sign the card.", rather than "he cheated". Sullying someone's reputation by calling them a cheater, if mistaken, is a much worse move than making an honest mistake about ball flight in a drop situation.



    I hope Kang stands up for himself and comes out with a rebuttal, because you should stand up for yourself when someone tries to kick you to the gutter.
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  • Birdie MacBirdie Mac Posts: 451 ✭✭
    Bad look for Dahmen to call Kang out as a cheater on Twitter. I trust he said the same to his face when they were discussing it on the course, but I doubt that happened. Agree this is a judgment call, unlike a bad mark, or improper drop where crossing a hazard is not in question. Should be interesting to see what Kang's response is, but I'd think Dahmen will apologize beforehand. And, no, he shouldn't have signed the scorecard if he felt this strongly about it.
  • Albatross85Albatross85 Tiger is the GOAT St. Louis, MOMembers Posts: 2,832 ✭✭
    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.
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  • cinnepacinnepa Members Posts: 2,196 ✭✭
    edited Jul 2, 2018 #72
    as i heard someone say....twitter is a loaded gun.
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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Members Posts: 5,104 ✭✭
    MtlJeff wrote:

    TheInfidel wrote:



    Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.



    Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?




    Do you even play golf? Seriously.



    The game is built on integrity and honesty. Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct. Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first. But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%. There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.




    Why, because no one who ever had a strong opinion on twitter is wrong?



    Kang would be within his rights to sue in this case. Much as Mickelson threatened to sue over being called a cheater for using the Eye2



    Either he can prove it or he can't. If he can't he shouldn't post opinion as fact. And since it was blessed by an official I'd side with Kang here pending further evidence


    Agreed with every word.

    Makes JD look really bad.
  • SkiSchoolProSkiSchoolPro Members Posts: 623
    Birdie Mac wrote:


    Bad look for Dahmen to call Kang out as a cheater on Twitter. I trust he said the same to his face when they were discussing it on the course, but I doubt that happened.


    What do you think they were talking about for 20 minutes while they let the group behind play through? Yes, some time might have been spent walking, but...
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  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,191 ✭✭


    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    The reason he's being jumped on is because there is an official whose job it is to make rulings and he made one in this case that favored the drop Kang took. Dahmen is welcome to disagree with it and say he disagrees with it.



    I don't understand the logic of "well he said something forcefully so it must be true". Is that how it works? Whoever makes the boldest claim is likely right? I shudder thinking of a world where this is commonly accepted. I wonder if men feel the same way about say, sexual harrassment complaints.



    If you are looking at the facts at hand, they suggest Kang is right. If only because the official sided with him.
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  • Fade to BlackFade to Black Members Posts: 3,776 ✭✭


    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.


    It's not cheating if the official sides with your viewpoint.
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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Members Posts: 5,104 ✭✭
    MtlJeff wrote:



    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    The reason he's being jumped on is because there is an official whose job it is to make rulings and he made one in this case that favored the drop Kang took. Dahmen is welcome to disagree with it and say he disagrees with it.



    I don't understand the logic of "well he said something forcefully so it must be true". Is that how it works? Whoever makes the boldest claim is likely right? I shudder thinking of a world where this is commonly accepted. I wonder if men feel the same way about say, sexual harrassment complaints.



    If you are looking at the facts at hand, they suggest Kang is right. If only because the official sided with him.


    Often times the louder someone yells the more right (they think) they are image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • SkiSchoolProSkiSchoolPro Members Posts: 623
    edited Jul 2, 2018 #78
    MtlJeff wrote:



    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    The reason he's being jumped on is because there is an official whose job it is to make rulings and he made one in this case that favored the drop Kang took. Dahmen is welcome to disagree with it and say he disagrees with it.



    I don't understand the logic of "well he said something forcefully so it must be true". Is that how it works? Whoever makes the boldest claim is likely right? I shudder thinking of a world where this is commonly accepted. I wonder if men feel the same way about say, sexual harrassment complaints.



    If you are looking at the facts at hand, they suggest Kang is right. If only because the official sided with him.


    I said it before and we'll say it again. My interpretation of the rules is that the official siding with Kang only indicates that in Kang's judgment the ball crossed up by the green, not that the official felt King's judgment was better than JD's. Just because the rules assume that players play with integrity doesn't mean that all of them do. I wasn't there so I'm not saying Kang cheated, but the official siding with him means nothing.
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  • Albatross85Albatross85 Tiger is the GOAT St. Louis, MOMembers Posts: 2,832 ✭✭
    edited Jul 2, 2018 #79
    MtlJeff wrote:



    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    The reason he's being jumped on is because there is an official whose job it is to make rulings and he made one in this case that favored the drop Kang took. Dahmen is welcome to disagree with it and say he disagrees with it.



    I don't understand the logic of "well he said something forcefully so it must be true". Is that how it works? Whoever makes the boldest claim is likely right? I shudder thinking of a world where this is commonly accepted. I wonder if men feel the same way about say, sexual harrassment complaints.



    If you are looking at the facts at hand, they suggest Kang is right. If only because the official sided with him.
    The official had no choice but to side with him, the official did not see the shot.



    I see no reason why JD would be so adamant unless he was 100% certain. This is a very rare occurrence on the tour for a player to speak up about a line of flight drop.



    I am not saying that just b/c he is forceful or adamant that makes him correct. But it is worth considering....



    I am not calling Kang a cheater, but i think if it was an iffy drop most people would shutup and move on. Clearly JD felt like falling on the sword was worth it in this instance.
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  • golfnoob25golfnoob25 Posts: 338 ✭✭
    I tend to believe Kang cheated.



    No reason to stick his neck into this and start drama, with no basis. Would be very strange.
  • SkiSchoolProSkiSchoolPro Members Posts: 623

    MtlJeff wrote:



    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    The reason he's being jumped on is because there is an official whose job it is to make rulings and he made one in this case that favored the drop Kang took. Dahmen is welcome to disagree with it and say he disagrees with it.



    I don't understand the logic of "well he said something forcefully so it must be true". Is that how it works? Whoever makes the boldest claim is likely right? I shudder thinking of a world where this is commonly accepted. I wonder if men feel the same way about say, sexual harrassment complaints.



    If you are looking at the facts at hand, they suggest Kang is right. If only because the official sided with him.
    The official had no choice but to side with him, the official did not see the shot.



    I see no reason why JD would be so adamant unless he was 100% certain. This is a very rare occurrence on the tour for a player to speak up about a line of flight drop.



    I am not saying that just b/c he is forceful or adamant that makes him correct. But it is worth considering....



    I am not calling Kang a cheater, but i think if it was an iffy drop most people would shutup and move on. Clearly JD felt like falling on the sword was worth it in this instance.


    Exactly!!!!
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  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,191 ✭✭

    MtlJeff wrote:



    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    The reason he's being jumped on is because there is an official whose job it is to make rulings and he made one in this case that favored the drop Kang took. Dahmen is welcome to disagree with it and say he disagrees with it.



    I don't understand the logic of "well he said something forcefully so it must be true". Is that how it works? Whoever makes the boldest claim is likely right? I shudder thinking of a world where this is commonly accepted. I wonder if men feel the same way about say, sexual harrassment complaints.



    If you are looking at the facts at hand, they suggest Kang is right. If only because the official sided with him.
    The official had no choice but to side with him, the official did not see the shot.



    I see no reason why JD would be so adamant unless he was 100% certain. This is a very rare occurrence on the tour for a player to speak up about a line of flight drop.



    I am not saying that just b/c he is forceful or adamant that makes him correct. But it is worth considering....



    I am not calling Kang a cheater, but i think if it was an iffy drop most people would shutup and move on. Clearly JD felt like falling on the sword was worth it in this instance.




    It is certainly worth considering, it's a factor no question. It does seem strange.....however people ARE strange! You have met many people i assume, haven't you ever met people and wondered "What the F is with this guy?".



    I have seen high level executives lie about things for no or minimal personal gain in business settings. Maybe he wanted to be a whistleblower, maybe the conversation they had got heated and this was payback....all of these things should be considered too. I have no idea who Joel Dahmen is, neither do you. Maybe he's a lunatic



    My point is just that a ruling was made that favors Kang. There's no evidence he cheated. So until i see evidence i'm gonna say Kang should threaten to sue this guy
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  • hell_is_chromehell_is_chrome Members Posts: 924 ✭✭


    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    He signed the card which means he endorses the score as correct. Can't have it both ways.
  • eagle1997eagle1997 Members Posts: 18,048 ✭✭
    based on what he saw, JD could 100% believe SK willfully and knowingly took an illegal drop.



    based on what HE saw, SK could 100% believe he took a correct drop.



    both players went (-3) on the back 9 to finish, so this situation obviously didn't negatively affect their games. i actually find this incredible. i had to call out someone for taking an illegal drop last year in a club tournament. my game (and his) promptly went in the toilet because of the confrontation.





    a signed scorecard and the official's ruling are the determining factors for me to this point. will be interested if there is any further info that comes out.
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  • JohnnyCashForeverJohnnyCashForever Members Posts: 243 ✭✭



    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.


    It's not cheating if the official sides with your viewpoint.




    It is possible that the official believed that both golfers saw what they saw. Without other evidence or testimony, it would be hard to rule against Kang. It's basically a "he-said-he-said" deal. However, if Kang lied to the official, then he cheated.
  • WidespreadPanicWidespreadPanic Wizard in the Corner Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭
    edited Jul 2, 2018 #86
    eagle1997 wrote:

    TheInfidel wrote:


    Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.




    here's joel's shot tracker. his tee shot was well right of sung kang's tee shot. unless he walked over to get a better view, from his angle, there is *literally* no way he could tell where the ball crossed.



    Screen_Shot_2018-07-02_at_10.38.31_AM.png


    This was my first thought when I looked at the Shotlinks. I walked past them and saw them arguing. JD was very clearly not happy at all. It was a strange sight. Dahmen is the guy who tweeted a while back that watching Tiger drive the ball was entertaining because you never know where it's going to go. He is obviously not afraid to speak his mind. Calling someone a cheater is a bold move.
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  • golfgirlrobingolfgirlrobin Members Posts: 2,283 ✭✭
    There’s a guy on FB who says he was running the Shotlink on the hole and that he, three marshals and JD all saw it the same way, but the official took Kang’s word.



    Apparently Kang said that he was 95% sure of where it crossed until the official told him he needed to be 100% sure or drop farther back, and miraculously, he was then 100% sure.



    I have no issue with him being called out on this. These drops where the player takes an extra 100+ yards happen all the time and they’re bs. I’d love for guys to be a little less sure they can do it without consequences.
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  • Albatross85Albatross85 Tiger is the GOAT St. Louis, MOMembers Posts: 2,832 ✭✭


    There’s a guy on FB who says he was running the Shotlink on the hole and that he, three marshals and JD all saw it the same way, but the official took Kang’s word.



    Apparently Kang said that he was 95% sure of where it crossed until the official told him he needed to be 100% sure or drop farther back, and miraculously, he was then 100% sure.



    I have no issue with him being called out on this. These drops where the player takes an extra 100+ yards happen all the time and they’re bs. I’d love for guys to be a little less sure they can do it without consequences.
    I saw that comment on FB too. Very interesting
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  • mizuno playermizuno player Mizuno player Members Posts: 1,302 ✭✭

    MtlJeff wrote:



    Y'all are quick to jump on Dahmen for using strong language. I look at it another way; i dont think he would stick his neck on the line unless he felt very strongly about the situation. He is trying to protect the field which i can respect. Clearly he had a good view if he is going to argue about it for 20 minutes when it has no impact on his paycheck or status.



    Cheaters need to be called out and held accountable.




    The reason he's being jumped on is because there is an official whose job it is to make rulings and he made one in this case that favored the drop Kang took. Dahmen is welcome to disagree with it and say he disagrees with it.



    I don't understand the logic of "well he said something forcefully so it must be true". Is that how it works? Whoever makes the boldest claim is likely right? I shudder thinking of a world where this is commonly accepted. I wonder if men feel the same way about say, sexual harrassment complaints.



    If you are looking at the facts at hand, they suggest Kang is right. If only because the official sided with him.


    Often times the louder someone yells the more right (they think) they are image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    No kidding.



    The only thing yelling loud makes you is loud!
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 26,116 ✭✭


    There’s a guy on FB who says he was running the Shotlink on the hole and that he, three marshals and JD all saw it the same way, but the official took Kang’s word.



    Apparently Kang said that he was 95% sure of where it crossed until the official told him he needed to be 100% sure or drop farther back, and miraculously, he was then 100% sure.



    I have no issue with him being called out on this. These drops where the player takes an extra 100+ yards happen all the time and they’re bs. I’d love for guys to be a little less sure they can do it without consequences.




    Good intel, ggr.



    Dahmen like,



    ORIGINALLLLL.jpg
  • WidespreadPanicWidespreadPanic Wizard in the Corner Members Posts: 4,816 ✭✭
    On Twitter the guy who ran the shotlink (Michael Klock) said



    "Kang sure did cheat. The ball never came close to where he dropped. He should have been 200yds back. Kang threw a fit and got his way."



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