How to choose a putter to help break 70

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  • HoosierMizunoHoosierMizuno Members Posts: 3,346 ✭✭
    we've all seen the stats about how many we should expect to make based on pga tour data. in my opinion is that without seeing you putt in person there is a lot of unknowns. simply missing or making doesn't tell the whole story. i would think the real answer lies with a qualified putter fitting and some SAM data.



    i miss from 6 ft can be from numerous things and all would suggest different solutions.



    hit if too hard through the break

    hit it too soft

    misread too much break

    pull or push the putt vs hitting the putt where the face is aligned but your eyes tell you you're aligned correct when in reality you aren't

    open/closed face at impact

    path in to out or out to in

    are there similarities in your misses

    are your putts burning the edges or missing by a mile

    bad strokes or poor alignment can end with a made putt.





    makes aren't always the result of perfect putt. you can misalign left and then accidentally push a putt and end in a make. point being that just because you made a few putts one day doesn't mean you putted great. over time things will even out and you will miss a lot of makeable putts as well. to become a better putter find a fitting so you hit putts where you think you are looking. then practice making good consistent strokes.
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,355 ✭✭
    eboettne wrote:

    Go_Time wrote:


    pga tour average for that distance is well below 30% afiak...not sure what level of success you're expecting. With that % it wouldn't be unusual to make zero putts in that range during a round.




    What I expect is to be able to get around a course in less than 30 putts per round on occasion, especially when I'm flushing my approach shots.




    Putts per round is an iron statistic, not a putting statistic. The issue is in your approach (pun intended). The best way to get fewest putts per round is to just miss the green on purpose. Chip close, tap in. You can shoot 75 or 76 with 20/22 putts pretty easily that way.



    Breaking 70 is really, really hard. You need to hit it closer.



    "7-12" feet isn't a thing. That's like saying you were driving 30-110 mph. 7 feet is almost 50% make rate, 12 is barely 15%. 7-12 is an insane group to talk about in terms of your putting, 7 and 12 are *worlds* apart in terms of make rate. You shouldn't expect to make more than a half of a 15-20 footer per round if you only have seven of them.



    Your putting doesn't sound like the problem my man. 33 putts per round is an iron problem, not a putting problem. Hit it closer, make more.
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  • RobotDoctorRobotDoctor Senior Hacker ClubWRX Posts: 4,412 ClubWRX
    Take a road trip to the Indianapolis area and visit Bruce Rearick. If it's a lesson you want he's a great resource.



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  • eboettneeboettne Posts: 168 ✭✭

    eboettne wrote:

    Go_Time wrote:


    pga tour average for that distance is well below 30% afiak...not sure what level of success you're expecting. With that % it wouldn't be unusual to make zero putts in that range during a round.




    What I expect is to be able to get around a course in less than 30 putts per round on occasion, especially when I'm flushing my approach shots.




    Putts per round is an iron statistic, not a putting statistic. The issue is in your approach (pun intended). The best way to get fewest putts per round is to just miss the green on purpose. Chip close, tap in. You can shoot 75 or 76 with 20/22 putts pretty easily that way.



    Breaking 70 is really, really hard. You need to hit it closer.



    "7-12" feet isn't a thing. That's like saying you were driving 30-110 mph. 7 feet is almost 50% make rate, 12 is barely 15%. 7-12 is an insane group to talk about in terms of your putting, 7 and 12 are *worlds* apart in terms of make rate. You shouldn't expect to make more than a half of a 15-20 footer per round if you only have seven of them.



    Your putting doesn't sound like the problem my man. 33 putts per round is an iron problem, not a putting problem. Hit it closer, make more.




    I don't even know where to start with this... I hit 15/18 greens, nothing outside of 20 feet and it's an iron problem? That's quite the stretch. If I would have putt to your percentages I would have broke 70 however I made 0% in all of those categories. I'd like to improve on the 0% number since, ya know, it literally can't get any worse.
  • soulcicciasoulciccia Members Posts: 191
    I'm in the opposite side, almost never hit more than 12-13 greens but putting and short game in general is my strength. But I'm trying to give you some advices.

    First, DO NOT go for a fitting...

    Your long game is really good, so you know how to play and you don't need anyone to tell you how to putt and which putter use. The reason why you don't make birdies is only mental..you miss the putt before putting.



    Go on the putting green with your putters, and if you can, borrow others, so that you can try different head shapes, materials, lengths, grips...I know it can be very confusing, but you need to start to understand which putter style fits you better, considering also the one you visually prefer. Once you find a putter you are convinced of, you will surely begin putting better and scoring birdies...
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,355 ✭✭
    edited Jul 10, 2018 #37
    eboettne wrote:


    I hit 15/18 greens, nothing outside of 20 feet and it's an iron problem? That's quite the stretch.




    Yes. You're trying to break 70. How did you score on the par 5s? You are obviously really, really good and have a strong iron game, but we're talking about breaking 70 here.



    You are saying things like "nothing outside of 20 feet" that don't actually mean anything. That's the issue. If "nothing outside of 20 feet" means 15 putts between 10 and 20 feet you are not hitting it close enough to reliably one putt. If "nothing outside of 20 feet" means 5 putts inside 6 feet then its a putting problem. From a perspective of evaluating how to score lower, "nothing outside 20 feet" means nothing. 18 feet is two putted as often as 40 feet. 3 feet is never two putted. Both 18 and 3 feet are "inside 20 feet" but they couldn't be more different for evaluating your game.



    The problem with your posts is you are grouping distances together that have hugely different make rates. There is a MASSIVE difference between hitting it to 7 feet and hitting it to 12 feet. I would easily demolish the best putter on tour if he started at 12 feet and I started at 7.
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  • KMeloneyKMeloney Members Posts: 4,725 ✭✭
    Sean2 wrote:


    I find with putting, more often than not it's not the putter, but the puttee.




    That'd be the ball, Sean.



    (I think you meant "...but the putter holding the putter.")



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  • eboettneeboettne Posts: 168 ✭✭
    rusty04 wrote:


    The reason why you don't make birdies is only mental..you miss the putt before putting.



    Go on the putting green with your putters, and if you can, borrow others, so that you can try different head shapes, materials, lengths, grips...I know it can be very confusing, but you need to start to understand which putter style fits you better, considering also the one you visually prefer. Once you find a putter you are convinced of, you will surely begin putting better and scoring birdies...




    'You miss the putt before putting' statement is so accurate it's scary, good tips. I do need to try some various options.



    eboettne wrote:


    I hit 15/18 greens, nothing outside of 20 feet and it's an iron problem? That's quite the stretch.




    Yes. You're trying to break 70. How did you score on the par 5s? You are obviously really, really good and have a strong iron game, but we're talking about breaking 70 here.



    You are saying things like "nothing outside of 20 feet" that don't actually mean anything. That's the issue. If "nothing outside of 20 feet" means 15 putts between 10 and 20 feet you are not hitting it close enough to reliably one putt. If "nothing outside of 20 feet" means 5 putts inside 6 feet then its a putting problem. From a perspective of evaluating how to score lower, "nothing outside 20 feet" means nothing. 18 feet is two putted as often as 40 feet. 3 feet is never two putted. Both 18 and 3 feet are "inside 20 feet" but they couldn't be more different for evaluating your game.



    The problem with your posts is you are grouping distances together that have hugely different make rates. There is a MASSIVE difference between hitting it to 7 feet and hitting it to 12 feet. I would easily demolish the best putter on tour if he started at 12 feet and I started at 7.




    I honestly didn't feel like going through my entire spread of distances for putting but here goes based on memory for the back 9... 8, 15, missed green, 12, 10, 7, 9, 8, 18. As I said, that's not a ball striking problem.


    KMeloney wrote:

    Sean2 wrote:


    I find with putting, more often than not it's not the putter, but the puttee.




    That'd be the ball, Sean.






    This made me laugh
  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    eboettne wrote:




    I honestly didn't feel like going through my entire spread of distances for putting but here goes based on memory for the back 9... 8, 15, missed green, 12, 10, 7, 9, 8, 18. As I said, that's not a ball striking problem.








    So realistically you are just worried about the 4 putts you had inside 10 feet?



    I think you may be misunderstanding the application of the word "problem" in the statement "ball striking problem"



    Its only a problem if you want to break 70, if you are happy in the low 70's then you dont have a ball striking "problem"



    He isnt saying you are a bad ball striker, but based on putting statistics, you need more chances inside 8 feet.



    The other issue is if you are missing everything inside 10 feet, but keep in mind a great day you still dont make more than 25% of putts inside 10 feet....
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  • Popeye64Popeye64 Posts: 870 ✭✭
    A question to add in your quest for a 69. When you miss the green how often are you getting up and down? I found this to be the greatest scoring weapon to my personal game.
  • soulcicciasoulciccia Members Posts: 191

    eboettne wrote:


    I honestly didn't feel like going through my entire spread of distances for putting but here goes based on memory for the back 9... 8, 15, missed green, 12, 10, 7, 9, 8, 18. As I said, that's not a ball striking problem.








    So realistically you are just worried about the 4 putts you had inside 10 feet?



    I think you may be misunderstanding the application of the word "problem" in the statement "ball striking problem"



    Its only a problem if you want to break 70, if you are happy in the low 70's then you dont have a ball striking "problem"



    He isnt saying you are a bad ball striker, but based on putting statistics, you need more chances inside 8 feet.



    The other issue is if you are missing everything inside 10 feet, but keep in mind a great day you still dont make more than 25% of putts inside 10 feet....




    with 15/18 GIR and putting from those distances, a 71 means a lot of wasted shots...an average tour player, with those long game stats, would score in the middle 60s
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,355 ✭✭
    edited Jul 10, 2018 #43
    rusty04 wrote:


    eboettne wrote:


    I honestly didn't feel like going through my entire spread of distances for putting but here goes based on memory for the back 9... 8, 15, missed green, 12, 10, 7, 9, 8, 18. As I said, that's not a ball striking problem.








    So realistically you are just worried about the 4 putts you had inside 10 feet?



    I think you may be misunderstanding the application of the word "problem" in the statement "ball striking problem"



    Its only a problem if you want to break 70, if you are happy in the low 70's then you dont have a ball striking "problem"



    He isnt saying you are a bad ball striker, but based on putting statistics, you need more chances inside 8 feet.



    The other issue is if you are missing everything inside 10 feet, but keep in mind a great day you still dont make more than 25% of putts inside 10 feet....




    with 15/18 GIR and putting from those distances, a 71 means a lot of wasted shots...an average tour player, with those long game stats, would score in the middle 60s




    The average tour player would score about a 66.68 with those statistics. But he's not a tour player. And he also only gave us the distances on the back, where he only missed one green. That skyrockets if we add another missed green in there (its amazing how tight the margins get when we start talking about breaking 70). If we assume he hit exactly the same on the front except missed one more green, he's about a 68.1. So its not a ball striking issue, but if you putt like the best in the world you only have a margin for error of 1.9 strokes. Yeah, OK.



    Its fine if you don't agree with me. Its a golf forum and everyone has an opinion. When you are trying to go low, it is WAY better to hit one shot to a foot and another to 19 feet that two to 10 feet. You didn't hit a single shot really tight. Until you do, you won't break 70 regularly. Relying on yourself to hole 7-10 foot putts at the same rate as the best in the world isn't a good plan IMO. You might think it sounds reasonable. I think you need to be more aggressive in where you are aiming your irons.



    Note the IMO. Breaking 70 is really, really hard. If you can hit the ball like that you'll do it eventually. But to do it regularly you need to kill par 5s and hit it tight 2-3 times a round. You're not doing that, so you will always be at the mercy of your putter*.



    *And you act like you control whether or not putts go in, which you don't. Green quality, maintenance, etc... has way more to do with it than your stroke at that level. You'll never putt like they do because you don't play greens anywhere near as pristine as they do. Its hopeless. Its like telling me you want to set the 100m sprint record and then you try to do it on a beach instead of a track.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • soulcicciasoulciccia Members Posts: 191
    edited Jul 11, 2018 #44

    rusty04 wrote:


    eboettne wrote:


    I honestly didn't feel like going through my entire spread of distances for putting but here goes based on memory for the back 9... 8, 15, missed green, 12, 10, 7, 9, 8, 18. As I said, that's not a ball striking problem.








    So realistically you are just worried about the 4 putts you had inside 10 feet?



    I think you may be misunderstanding the application of the word "problem" in the statement "ball striking problem"



    Its only a problem if you want to break 70, if you are happy in the low 70's then you dont have a ball striking "problem"



    He isnt saying you are a bad ball striker, but based on putting statistics, you need more chances inside 8 feet.



    The other issue is if you are missing everything inside 10 feet, but keep in mind a great day you still dont make more than 25% of putts inside 10 feet....




    with 15/18 GIR and putting from those distances, a 71 means a lot of wasted shots...an average tour player, with those long game stats, would score in the middle 60s








    Its fine if you don't agree with me. Its a golf forum and everyone has an opinion. When you are trying to go low, it is WAY better to hit one shot to a foot and another to 19 feet that two to 10 feet. You didn't hit a single shot really tight. Until you do, you won't break 70 regularly. Relying on yourself to hole 7-10 foot putts at the same rate as the best in the world isn't a good plan IMO. You might think it sounds reasonable. I think you need to be more aggressive in where you are aiming your irons.






    surely he didn't get any tap-in for birdie...



    In the past I broke 70 a dozen times, but never hitting more than 13/14 greens, so for me all those birdie chances from medium-short distances are just a dream!

    The keys is having many birdie chances, and at the same time, when missing the green, approaching by the right side to avoid bogeys.



    Greens quality can make the difference, but also greens speed...tour players putt on much more difficult greens than what we do, and even if they can be in better conditions, approaches and putts from 20+ feet become difficult. I often play with mini tours pros, and I make you sure that, on pretty flat greens, they hole from everywhere.
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,355 ✭✭
    edited Jul 11, 2018 #45
    rusty04 wrote:


    Greens quality can make the difference, but also greens speed...tour players putt on much more difficult greens than what we do,




    Where are you getting your data? Once the golfer adjusts for speed, which takes about 60 putts, it is way easier to putt on a tour green. Its perfect.



    Further, the pros use contour maps to read their putts, which are a huge advantage. Unless the OP is using one he can't hope to match them.


    rusty04 wrote:


    I often play with mini tours pros, and I make you sure that, on pretty flat greens, they hole from everywhere.




    We don't have to guess. They track every single putt. They don't "hole from everywhere" or they wouldn't be mini tour pros. You can look up the make rates at the PGA tour website. Outside about 7 1/2 feet they drop sub-50%, and they drop fast from there.



    Look guys, its fine. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. But trying to break 70 is hard and those statistics are not the ball striking statistics of someone who can do it regularly. If your tightest shot is 7 feet you're not going to do it with regularity, and it ain't the putter's fault. Note if you changed a 9 to a 1 and an 8 to a 15 (same average, different distribution) you'd have a much better chance. But trying to hole 7-12 footers at an equal rate to tour players with no contour book on non-tour green? That's not an efficient route to 69 my friend.
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  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    I guess at this point, the only putter you should look at is Rodney Dangerfields from Caddy Shack..........



    You are a really good player, but it looks like all aspects of your game need to tighten up even more to break 70 with any level of consistency. Its not an insult, low 70s is one **** of an accomplishment.
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  • eboettneeboettne Posts: 168 ✭✭


    I guess at this point, the only putter you should look at is Rodney Dangerfields from Caddy Shack..........




    I'll take 2 of them please
  • eboettneeboettne Posts: 168 ✭✭
    edited Jul 13, 2018 #48
    In case anyone was wondering, I have solved my putter woes. The secret? I bought a headcover for it. The poor thing was just feeling neglected being exposed to all the dirty clubs and the elements. First round out with the new headcover, boom, 12 putts in 9 holes with 3 birdies and <GASP> distances of 10, 15 feet and 35 feet. Golf is so stupid.
  • PixlPutterman PixlPutterman Look At My Lefty J33R(hey I can wish) Members Posts: 8,211 ✭✭
    eboettne wrote:


    In case anyone was wondering, I have solved my putter woes. The secret? I bought a headcover for it. The poor thing was just feeling neglected being exposed to all the dirty clubs and the elements. First round out with the new headcover, boom, 12 putts in 9 holes with 3 birdies and <GASP> distances of 10, 15 feet and 35 feet. Golf is so stupid.






    Cant believe I didnt think of that image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    What did you shoot?
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  • 94009400 Members Posts: 109 ✭✭
    eboettne wrote:


    In case anyone was wondering, I have solved my putter woes. The secret? I bought a headcover for it. The poor thing was just feeling neglected being exposed to all the dirty clubs and the elements. First round out with the new headcover, boom, 12 putts in 9 holes with 3 birdies and <GASP> distances of 10, 15 feet and 35 feet. Golf is so stupid.




    Also known as regression toward the mean. One below average day/period will always balance out, especially at your skill level. People quoting the stats previously were just trying to emphasize this fact.



    Glad you didn't let a cold putter get you too frustrated though. Good putting!
  • eboettneeboettne Posts: 168 ✭✭

    eboettne wrote:


    In case anyone was wondering, I have solved my putter woes. The secret? I bought a headcover for it. The poor thing was just feeling neglected being exposed to all the dirty clubs and the elements. First round out with the new headcover, boom, 12 putts in 9 holes with 3 birdies and <GASP> distances of 10, 15 feet and 35 feet. Golf is so stupid.






    Cant believe I didnt think of that image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    What did you shoot?




    34(-2)
  • bargolfbargolf Posts: 304 ✭✭
    Sounds to me like you have a high rotation set up with a low rotation putter. Can't control the steer at mid to long range putts.



    Started with a full hang Palmer, switched to a 45 degree Cameron now face balanced. which one did you use the last time you broke 70?
  • soulcicciasoulciccia Members Posts: 191
    I guess you know why you made birdies today
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  • Rory4PresRory4Pres Members Posts: 913 ✭✭
    eboettne wrote:


    I've been missing a ton of putts lately which is the reason for this thread. I'm hitting the ball as well as I have my entire life but missing birdie putts inside 15-20 feet consistently. Just yesterday I hit, 15/18 greens and shot 72 with 33 putts. On the back 9 alone, I had 8 birdie chances with 7 of them in the 15-20 foot range and probably 3 or 4 of those in the 7-12 foot range and DIDN'T MAKE A SINGLE ONE. To say I was frustrated is an understatement. On one hand I'm ecstatic to be hitting the ball so well, but to leave so many chances out there is maddening. I've been on a quest to break 70 for the first time since college for the last 4-5 years and have shot 70 three or four times but never the elusive 69. So I think part of the issue is not pressing when I know I'm close but I think the putter could be the wrong for me as well.



    I've used 3 putters in my entire life. An Arnold Palmer, Scotty Cameron Newport 2, and now an Odyssey Mallet for the past 5 or so years. The only way I've really chosen putters is to go hit them in a golf store for 20-30 minutes but I'm sure there's a better way. Last year I got a counterbalance grip added to my Odyssey which seemed to help my speed but not actually making putts, which is sort of the point. The putter I currently have is toe balanced, which from what I've understood is good if you open then square the face at impact. However, I think I usually am a straight back and through putter, especially on the putts inside 20 feet. Could this be the source of my woes? What is a good way to get fitted or decide what a better option might be for me? I'd like to stick with a mallet if possible as I think the larger clubhead gives me confidence on the 3-5 footers.



    Thanks in advance for any help you could provide me.




    Well the more putts you miss the harder it seems to make ones in the future. confidence is key. I've gone round and round with putting because I was in the same boat as you. I don't recommend this but I bought a ton of putters until I found one that was exactly what I wanted (I didn't know what I really wanted until I tried a ton actually on the golf course versus the golf shop's green). Skip that and get a fitting if you want to be more smart than I was. That being said, practicing your putting is key. When practicing, use 1 ball and pretend like it's your birdie putt. Mentally training yourself will help a lot on getting over any "birdie putter" yips. You won't make everything like the pro's do on Sundays but you should give yourself a good chance on each putt.



    Good luck Buddy.
  • eboettneeboettne Posts: 168 ✭✭
    bargolf wrote:


    Sounds to me like you have a high rotation set up with a low rotation putter. Can't control the steer at mid to long range putts.



    Started with a full hang Palmer, switched to a 45 degree Cameron now face balanced. which one did you use the last time you broke 70?




    Scotty Cameron Newport 2 I think
  • bargolfbargolf Posts: 304 ✭✭
    There is a way to regain the feel for the putter and your stroke. Go back to the Cameron or better yet the Palmer. Get away from the ball a little and rotate the h+ll out of the stroke for a practice session. Same method Tiger has used for years to get out of the steer.
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