Does lack of additional great golf in UP/Marquette hurt Greywalls?

If Marquette county had 2 more great courses(like Arcadia Bluff/Cabot Cliffs), would more people from Chicago, S Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota visit the area for Golf? When I talk to friends in SE MI about Greywalls, they think it's an all day drive (6 hours to Marquette, 4 hours to Petoskey). The speed limits have been upped. I think it's lack of additional great courses to play to justify their drive? Your thoughts?

Lincolnshire, IL- Marquette, MI- 353 miles 5hr and 48 min

Lincolnshire, IL- Petoskey, MI- 400 miles 6hr and 29 min

Lincolnshire, IL- Sand Valley, WI- 228 miles 3hr and 28 min

Sand Valley- $225 or $337.50 for 2 rounds

Arcadia Bluff- $195 or $285 for 2 rounds

Greywalls- $145 or $200 for 2 rounds

Drive time kills it. From Kzoo you can be to Petoskey in 4 hours. Greywalls is over 7 hours. The UP is great but only a certain type of person wants to go there. To rustic and remote for most people but the biggest factor is drive time.

Great course, and with Timberstone and Sweetgrass they have 3 if the top courses in int state. Wild Bluffs in Brimley is great as well.

Sweetgrass is building another course from what I heard.

I’ll prob go up again next year but it’s a trip I’ll take every 5 years vs every year

BG, thanks for the response. For Detroiters, Chicagians, Milwaukee (might not still be), and Minneapolis those folks have daily 1 hr flights to Marquette. Marquette has airport option, Petoskey doesn't have (non private jet). I suspect others want their car? It's an easier drive to Marquette from N Chicago folks. From talking to local Marquette people they are worried about becoming an over crowed Traverse City. Possibly advertising in N Chicago would be a good return for club? I think they need 2 more awesome tracks up there. Are you sure Timberstone and Sweetgrass are in the same league as Greywalls?

Not in the same league as Greywalls but those two courses are in the top 25 public in Michigan from my perspective. Sweetgrass has outstanding conditions and Timberstone is just unique.

Just not an ideal family destination compared to Petoskey , TC in my opinion. I love the UP but it’s too long of a drive for me: I’ll take a 6 hour trip to Sand Valley instead of going to UP

May be an hour from O’Hare, but it’s about $350 round trip per person. So to the average person, why spend that much to fly just to play golf when you can drive 2 hrs to Kohler or even Erin Hills and play for the same amount?

Short answer YES.

Long annswer:Just played last tuesday loved everything about Marquette my type of town. Played greywalls twice same day a little anti-climactic second time through, Heritage looks like a nice course. Broke drive up by playin black lake before and stayin at cottage. On way home played forest dunes which for me is everything I'm looking for in a course.

Its far it would be nice if it was closer to sweetgrass,timberstone,sagerun. Definitely will play again but gonna stay by other courses.

Like other things in life it's a destination not a routine. There are only so many good weekends to golf for us Yoopers compared to the rest of the population centers. You can now golf all 5 top quality courses for the stay and play special. I believe it is under $400 for all five with lodging. Well worth the money!!

If Marquette county had 2 more great courses, would more people from Chicago, S Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota visit the area for Golf? When I talk to friends in SE MI about Greywalls, they think it's an all day drive (6 hours to Marquette, 4 hours to Petoskey). The speed limits have been upped. I think it's lack of additional great courses to play to justify their drive? Your thoughts?

The problem they have is you have to drive past a LOT of great courses to get to them. Why? You can play great golf and knock 4 hours off the drive. From Chicago, you have Kohler and Sand Hills. From Detroit, you have....well...a LOT of great golf courses. What compels me to drive on? What else do they offer? Adding three courses won't really help in my opinion.

Here is my thoughts. I agree with Jose and I love Marquette. Only Charleviox/Petoskey/Harbor Springs might top it because they offer a lot and have been family destination for long time. Marquette has family stuff to do, foodie options, great breweries. It has the makings of a buddies trip or dad getting in early round and spending time with family on family vaca.

If i live in Wisconsin I'd have season pass at Lawsonia. If I live in Minnesota I'd have out of town at Northland in Duluth.

Kohler- (Haven't been, no desire) All Pete Dye courses no diversity, corp feel, pricey.

SV- Baby boomer (ones with money) don't want to walk 36, but want to play 36. Pricey. Presume of higher quality courses through better archies. More attention to detail.

Arcadia- now has 2 courses (destination), expensive. popular

Treetops- Solid cart ball courses, not great. more local Michigan traffic I'd presume. Has gone bankrupt I believe. convenient to 75.

Forest Dunes- Close to i-75 and doing well, needs more courses

Petoskey area- Belvedere is great, Ross memorial fun (rest is avg golf at best) NW Michigan has incredible land with 100ft glacial sand and we have Jerry Matthews, Art Hills, Faz, and RTJ tracks.....

TC- Kingsley, expensive unaccompanied. Town is too reminiscent of the People's republic of Ann Arbor and over-crowded.

If Marquette had 2 more GREAT courses, they would need to have members too, just like Greywalls and Belvedere. One problem is UP doesn't have interstate going through it like Duluth to Minneapolis. Yoppers prob want it that way. They have an Airport and 1.5M golfers within 7 hours.

having been to the UP and played Greywalls, Sweetgrass and Timberstone... its just simply the drive overall. for an extra hour drive time i can be at Sand Valley or Kohler, and never have to drive my car until i leave to go home

if i want to play all three of those course up there i have to add up to 4hrs of driving between the three, it was easily the most annoying part about my trip there and we did Greywalls in the middle so we could stay in Marquette, which was a very cool town and our group thoroughly enjoyed it

most people will go to Boyne/Treetops/Shanty because of the fact they can just lodge and golf, no other planning. UP unfortunately has a lot of driving to see the best

Short answer YES.

Long annswer:Just played last tuesday loved everything about Marquette my type of town. Played greywalls twice same day a little anti-climactic second time through, Heritage looks like a nice course. Broke drive up by playin black lake before and stayin at cottage. On way home played forest dunes which for me is everything I'm looking for in a course.

Its far it would be nice if it was closer to sweetgrass,timberstone,sagerun. Definitely will play again but gonna stay by other courses.

Heritage is a decent course... the front is very boring... but the back gets you into the hills and there are some great holes...

I played Greywalls... the condition was nice, but I'm not making the 4-5 hour drive to hang out in Marquette

Also, a couple of guys I regularly play with absolutely hate the Greywalls setup... too many blind tee shots/ landing areas for their liking

Jwhite86: understand completely with everything you said. Just had a really good experience so may be back for more.

Short answer YES.

Long annswer:Just played last tuesday loved everything about Marquette my type of town. Played greywalls twice same day a little anti-climactic second time through, Heritage looks like a nice course. Broke drive up by playin black lake before and stayin at cottage. On way home played forest dunes which for me is everything I'm looking for in a course.

Its far it would be nice if it was closer to sweetgrass,timberstone,sagerun. Definitely will play again but gonna stay by other courses.

 

Heritage is a decent course... the front is very boring... but the back gets you into the hills and there are some great holes...

 

I played Greywalls... the condition was nice, but I'm not making the 4-5 hour drive to hang out in Marquette

 

Also, a couple of guys I regularly play with absolutely hate the Greywalls setup... too many blind tee shots/ landing areas for their liking

Heritage was originally a 9 hole Langford in which he designed 18 holes and they only had enough money to build 9. They later sold land that his full routing existed on. The front has great Langford holes 4, 7, and 8. The holes on the back 14-18 have a terrible routing to them.

What is wrong with Marquette? Where do you prefer to drive 4-5 hours to?

I would bet that Augusta National has more blind shots then Greywalls and I'm sure your buds wouldn't mind playing there more then once. DeVries is a student of Dr MacKenzie and the good Dr was a big fan of blind shots.

having been to the UP and played Greywalls, Sweetgrass and Timberstone... its just simply the drive overall. for an extra hour drive time i can be at Sand Valley or Kohler, and never have to drive my car until i leave to go home

 

if i want to play all three of those course up there i have to add up to 4hrs of driving between the three, it was easily the most annoying part about my trip there and we did Greywalls in the middle so we could stay in Marquette, which was a very cool town and our group thoroughly enjoyed it

 

most people will go to Boyne/Treetops/Shanty because of the fact they can just lodge and golf, no other planning. UP unfortunately has a lot of driving to see the best

Smith, you are probably my favorite poster on the MW forum. I haven't been to Sweetgrass or Timberstone for a reason, they look like 4s-5's to me in photos. I also tried to convey in the opening post that the 2 new courses would have to be great.

So if 2 Cabot (cliffs/links) like courses on the water within 30 mins of Marquette existed, people wouldn't flock to play those 2 and Greywalls? Hence you have a destination that could rival SV and Kohler. If they had carts unlike SV and affordable unlike Kohler i think less would care about the extra 2 hours, if you are going to play for 3-5 days.

Boyne/Treetops is more local state traffic. I'm talking local traffic and people from out of state visiting.

having been to the UP and played Greywalls, Sweetgrass and Timberstone... its just simply the drive overall. for an extra hour drive time i can be at Sand Valley or Kohler, and never have to drive my car until i leave to go home

 

if i want to play all three of those course up there i have to add up to 4hrs of driving between the three, it was easily the most annoying part about my trip there and we did Greywalls in the middle so we could stay in Marquette, which was a very cool town and our group thoroughly enjoyed it

 

most people will go to Boyne/Treetops/Shanty because of the fact they can just lodge and golf, no other planning. UP unfortunately has a lot of driving to see the best

 

Smith, you are probably my favorite poster on the MW forum. I haven't been to Sweetgrass or Timberstone for a reason, they look like 4s-5's to me in photos. I also tried to convey in the opening post that the 2 new courses would have to be great.

 

So if 2 Cabot (cliffs/links) like courses on the water within 30 mins of Marquette existed, people wouldn't flock to play those 2 and Greywalls? Hence you have a destination that could rival SV and Kohler. If they had carts unlike SV and affordable unlike Kohler i think less would care about the extra 2 hours, if you are going to play for 3-5 days.

 

Boyne/Treetops is more local state traffic. I'm talking local traffic and people from out of state visiting.

i do not disagree, but it would require some type of push from Marquette Golf Club or the actual city of Marquette to push this for economic tourism gains. Its hard for many areas to just have a good grouping of courses, all privately owned, and share a common goal

SV, Kohler, Cabot, Bandon, Streamsong are very different than the setup at Marquette. Can really only think of Myrtle or Pinehurst Area (not resort) as places that are not single ownership and have a common goal of boosting play and the local economy overall (not that those resorts dont do that)

I recall Doak saying something in regards to a Mrytle Beach course starting to charge a "surcharge" for play on their course in the overall package cause in the end the owner realized his course was the one getting a majority of pay and felt he should be getting a bigger benefit against the other courses in the "grouping"

Nothing is wrong with Marquette love the place but I'm going for golf,Marquette was a nice complement. Forest dunes has a choice of 3 courses over 3 days,I'd prefer not to leave stay right on property.

Not the same caliber as greywalls but had some great trips to Angola, IND. Its only 2 hrs away play glendarian,cherry hill,noble hawk for what it cost for greywalls.

I don't need to drive 4 to 5 hours to play great golf being from where I am... 2 hours in every direction gets me to a lot of great golf courses... The Bull is my favorite course that I play regularly and I could argue that it's a nicer course than Greywalls and I can play for under $40 if I go out early...

Not the same caliber as greywalls but had some great trips to Angola, IND. Its only 2 hrs away play glendarian,cherry hill,noble hawk for what it cost for greywalls.

Loved Glendarian. Course and service was top notch.

I would bet that Augusta National has more blind shots then Greywalls and I'm sure your buds wouldn't mind playing there more then once. DeVries is a student of Dr MacKenzie and the good Dr was a big fan of blind shots.

Where did you get this impression? I'm sure if the land dictates, then maybe a blind tee shot sneaks in here or there; however MacKenzie wasn't a proponent of blind shots in his writings. Whether as 1 of his 13 principles or in other musings where he really did not like them for approaches or much at all really.

I would bet that Augusta National has more blind shots then Greywalls and I'm sure your buds wouldn't mind playing there more then once. DeVries is a student of Dr MacKenzie and the good Dr was a big fan of blind shots.

 

Where did you get this impression? I'm sure if the land dictates, then maybe a blind tee shot sneaks in here or there; however MacKenzie wasn't a proponent of blind shots in his writings. Whether as 1 of his 13 principles or in other musings where he really did not like them for approaches or much at all really.

Duffer,

Waiting on a response from DeVries.

6. There should be a minimum of blindness for the approach shots

He also broke many of his 13 rules and they are guide to his philosophy, he hated being confined to them later in his career. UofM has 4 blind tee shots on the front side #2, #3 (half blind), #4, and #7. I hear Lahinch has a ton of blind tee shots (haven't played). ANGC (haven't played) #2, #8 (i think), #10, #11, #15. I could have missed some more. I don't have anything in writing about blind tee shots at this time, but he sure built a lot of them in his designs. I don't know of any blind approaches at Greywalls (maybe #2 & #5 if you don't hit a good enough tee shot or are playing wrong tees)

I would bet that Augusta National has more blind shots then Greywalls and I'm sure your buds wouldn't mind playing there more then once. DeVries is a student of Dr MacKenzie and the good Dr was a big fan of blind shots.

 

Where did you get this impression? I'm sure if the land dictates, then maybe a blind tee shot sneaks in here or there; however MacKenzie wasn't a proponent of blind shots in his writings. Whether as 1 of his 13 principles or in other musings where he really did not like them for approaches or much at all really.

 

Duffer,

 

Waiting on a response from DeVries.

 

6. There should be a minimum of blindness for the approach shots

 

He also broke many of his 13 rules and they are guide to his philosophy, he hated being confined to them later in his career. UofM has 4 blind tee shots on the front side #2, #3 (half blind), #4, and #7. I hear Lahinch has a ton of blind tee shots (haven't played). ANGC (haven't played) #2, #8 (i think), #10, #11, #15. I could have missed some more. I don't have anything in writing about blind tee shots at this time, but he sure built a lot of them in his designs. I don't know of any blind approaches at Greywalls (maybe #2 & #5 if you don't hit a good enough tee shot or are playing wrong tees)

Oh sure, that is why I mentioned if the land dictates, although Lahinch has had a few different folks poke and prod and it really is a landscape not many others had to contend with! Sooo good.

I can think of a few shots between Pasatiempo and Alwoodley, but not many at all.

And agreed that no one is going to be wholly bound by a checklist, I'm not home again till Sunday night, so I cannot check until then, but I have this neat little book with the writings of MacKenzie, Colt, and Tilly, and I remember he had some pretty negative things to say about blind shots - hence my question about being a 'big fan' of them.

Are you sure Timberstone and Sweetgrass are in the same league as Greywalls?

Back when Golf Digest published "Places to Play" Timberstone was a five-star course alongside Pebble Beach, Blackwolf Run River, Bethpage Black, Pinehurst #2, etc...

Are you sure Timberstone and Sweetgrass are in the same league as Greywalls?

 

Back when Golf Digest published "Places to Play" Timberstone was a five-star course alongside Pebble Beach, Blackwolf Run River, Bethpage Black, Pinehurst #2, etc...

If that doesn't show you how much of a joke GD is, I don't know what will. The Michigan Top 25 is even funnier. Much of the rankings is about lining pockets.

Personally, as a Chicagoan that loves to hop in the car and play Michigan courses and has traveled dozens of times to Heyward or Door County, WI, it's just too far and there's almost too many options already to make the extra couple hour trek into the further unknown of the UP for me. Sure you can hop a plane and be there in an hour but those flights are $300+ and for that money I can play Sand Valley, Kohler, Erin HIlls, Arcadia, Forest Dunes, Traverse, Gaylord, Petoskey or elsewhere and still have money left over. If I do it I probably have to plan a bigger trip with the fam around it.

Personally, as a Chicagoan that loves to hop in the car and play Michigan courses and has traveled dozens of times to Heyward or Door County, WI, it's just too far and there's almost too many options already to make the extra couple hour trek into the further unknown of the UP for me. Sure you can hop a plane and be there in an hour but those flights are $300+ and for that money I can play Sand Valley, Kohler, Erin HIlls, Arcadia, Forest Dunes, Traverse, Gaylord, Petoskey or elsewhere and still have money left over. If I do it I probably have to plan a bigger trip with the fam around it.

I amended opening post. Petoskey is an extra hour drive, Arcadia and Forest Dunes are basically same distance and someone doesn't have to drive through Chicago traffic to get to Marquette. If you hop on a plane which is an hr flight. You would save $85-$137 a day from paying SV or AB prices. So a 3 day trip would cover your airfare. There isn't anything for family to do at Forest Dunes (collect nats/bugs), SV (kinda), Erin Hills, and AB-(more then others)? Marquette has 10,000 students in the school months, foodie places, a nice downtown, tons of outdoor activities, and ok shopping for women. The 2 courses would have to rival SV, for they are most likely heads above others excluding Greywalls.

Lincolnshire, IL- Marquette, MI- 353 miles 5hr and 48 min

Lincolnshire, IL- Petoskey, MI- 400 miles 6hr and 29 min

Lincolnshire, IL- Sand Valley, WI- 228 miles 3hr and 28 min

Sand Valley- $225 or $337.50 for 2 rounds

Arcadia Bluff- $195 or $285 for 2 rounds

Greywalls- $145 or $200 for 2 rounds

Played greywalls today and think Marquette is a great city, but I wouldn’t drive past the bull or lawsonia very often for golf ... really enjoyed the bull last week, probably more than lawsonia and Arcadia ... thought greywalls was a ton of fun ...

I would bet that Augusta National has more blind shots then Greywalls and I'm sure your buds wouldn't mind playing there more then once. DeVries is a student of Dr MacKenzie and the good Dr was a big fan of blind shots.

 

Where did you get this impression? I'm sure if the land dictates, then maybe a blind tee shot sneaks in here or there; however MacKenzie wasn't a proponent of blind shots in his writings. Whether as 1 of his 13 principles or in other musings where he really did not like them for approaches or much at all really.

 

Duffer,

 

Waiting on a response from DeVries.

 

6. There should be a minimum of blindness for the approach shots

 

He also broke many of his 13 rules and they are guide to his philosophy, he hated being confined to them later in his career. UofM has 4 blind tee shots on the front side #2, #3 (half blind), #4, and #7. I hear Lahinch has a ton of blind tee shots (haven't played). ANGC (haven't played) #2, #8 (i think), #10, #11, #15. I could have missed some more. I don't have anything in writing about blind tee shots at this time, but he sure built a lot of them in his designs. I don't know of any blind approaches at Greywalls (maybe #2 & #5 if you don't hit a good enough tee shot or are playing wrong tees)

 

Oh sure, that is why I mentioned if the land dictates, although Lahinch has had a few different folks poke and prod and it really is a landscape not many others had to contend with! Sooo good.

I can think of a few shots between Pasatiempo and Alwoodley, but not many at all.

 

And agreed that no one is going to be wholly bound by a checklist, I'm not home again till Sunday night, so I cannot check until then, but I have this neat little book with the writings of MacKenzie, Colt, and Tilly, and I remember he had some pretty negative things to say about blind shots - hence my question about being a 'big fan' of them.

Finally dug it out: not a fan.

"The greater the experience the writer has of designing golf courses, the more certain he is that blindness of all kinds should be avoided."

Duffer,

He said "a blind tee shot can be forgiven". As Tom Doak has stated he wrote those 13 rules early in his career and broke many of his rules and later regretted writing it I believe.

The Downs has 4 blind shots, UM has 4 on first 7 holes, ANGC a bunch, Lahinch. I could name more when I play them. When u have bold land you are going to have blind tee shots if the Archie utilizes land to fullest. U can't argue what is in the ground that Mack built. Blind tee shots are a blast. This all stems from a person criticism of Greywalls blind tee shots and that same person would overlook it if they played ANGC. Ironic don't u think??

Duffer,

 

He said "a blind tee shot can be forgiven". As Tom Doak has stated he wrote those 13 rules early in his career and broke many of his rules and later regretted writing it I believe.

 

The Downs has 4 blind shots, UM has 4 on first 7 holes, ANGC a bunch, Lahinch. I could name more when I play them. When u have bold land you are going to have blind tee shots if the Archie utilizes land to fullest. U can't argue what is in the ground that Mack built. Blind tee shots are a blast. This all stems from a person criticism of Greywalls blind tee shots and that same person would overlook it if they played ANGC. Ironic don't u think??

Yet later in his life he wrote the following, amongst the other views cited above:

"The greater the experience the writer has of designing golf courses, the more certain he is that blindness of all kinds should be avoided." That doesn't sound like an early thought does it?

I get it, you're always right and you never concede a point, regardless of the info put in front of you. It seems to be a common strand in your posts.

I don't mean to keep harping on it, but what you said about him being a big fan of blind shots simply doesn't ring true. A forgiven blind tee shot, does not a big fan make. And we should hope architects use the land as they find it as much as they can, which I am sure leads to some blind shots at those courses you mentioned.

I've only played a handful of his courses (Pasa, Sharp, Lahinch, Alwoodley off the top of my head) and of course the front 9 at Lahinch is bonkers. The land is bonkers. But funnily enough there are no contrived blind shots on the back, which is played over calmer terrain. And apart from a couple tee shots at the other 3, there is no common thread of blindness at all. You actually get some fantastic tee to green vistas at Pasa and Alwoodley.

I'll call it a day at this point. Greywalls looks like a nice little course, you're fortunate to have it in your neck of the woods :)