Are you using your driver at 17/1700?

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  • KGrinolsKGrinols Members Posts: 61
    Not sure why people are crying about Taylormade's Loft Up Campaign, they were 100% right. With the way the designed the head, 17/1700 was what resulted in absolute maximum distance. (I think TXG recommends 16/2100 for the 'safest optimization', but don't quote me.) That's what Taylormade marketed and that's what golfers ate up at record rates. At no point in their ads did they claim it was a fairway finder, or most accurate, or that it would lower scores. They offered maximum distance at all costs, and that's what they delivered. No lies, no snake oil, no deception. They essentially made the Low Spin Driver a mainstay even today. Every major brand sells a Low Spin version now, whether you call it 'loft up' or 'Low spin tech' or 'sub zero' or '+' they're all trying to achieve the exact same thing.



    I'm not here to defend Taylormade, I don't have a single club of theirs, and think the R1 is the first and only TM product I've ever owned... but their Marketing is the best in the business bar none. People holding grudges, come off as bitter buyers who are embarrassed they fell for a marketing scheme. Marketing works, across every aspect of life. As human beings we are wired to fall victim to brand recognition, Golf is no exception to that. We've all done it at some point, there is no shame.
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  • ZBigStickZBigStick Practice Perfect Form Members Posts: 5,313 ✭✭
    TaylorMade marketing...what can be said that hasn't been said already? Their marketing department is trash. They're snake oil salesman. 17/1700 was a stupid campaign. +17 Yards'ier' or whatever was a strong contender for the dumbest ever. Twist Farce is a joke. Tmag marketing is the one thing that chaps my a** more than it should but every time I see a rep at a demo day explaining how the twisty farce face is going to perform so much better than (insert other driver here) to some complete hack, I want to kick his tent over.



    My spinny, low lofted (7.5*) 915 comes off at 12*/2300 and hits a lot of fairways and isn't leaving the bag anytime soon. Bottom line - don't waste your time chasing 17/1700



    - The Angry Bomber



    P.S. edit: I think TM makes top notch clubs. Absolutely top-tier product. It's just their stupid marketing...




    Wouldn’t that be the marketing department that went over to Callaway?



    I believe you may not be a fan of golf marketing in general.
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  • ago33ago33 Members Posts: 2,149 ✭✭
    I don’t even know how 17-1700 is possible and I play a Callaway sub zero with a t1100

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  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,605 ClubWRX
    Many of you guys are forgetting the portion about lofting up in the 'loft up' campaign.



    Loft up...as in not the loft of your 2008 or 2018 Driver. More along the lines of a 12* or 14* SLDR Driver. Those higher lofted SLDRs absolutely delivered on what was advertised. Pure distance.



    I had mine paired up with an Oban Kiyoshi White, and it was great.



    The problem wasnt TMaG marketing. The problem was rooted inside Joe Golfer's ego. Guys couldn't fathom playing a 12* Driver, bought an 8.5* or 9.5* SLDR and couldn't get it off the ground.



    Let's no re-write history here, gents. TMaG pumped out a really long Driver that guys' egos wouldn't let them play.
  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members Posts: 1,781 ✭✭
    edited Jul 12, 2018 #36
    jj9000 wrote:


    Many of you guys are forgetting the portion about lofting up in the 'loft up' campaign.



    Loft up...as in not the loft of your 2008 or 2018 Driver. More along the lines of a 12* or 14* SLDR Driver. Those higher lofted SLDRs absolutely delivered on what was advertised. Pure distance.



    I had mine paired up with an Oban Kiyoshi White, and it was great.



    The problem wasnt TMaG marketing. The problem was rooted inside Joe Golfer's ego. Guys couldn't fathom playing a 12* Driver, bought an 8.5* or 9.5* SLDR and couldn't get it off the ground.



    Let's no re-write history here, gents. TMaG pumped out a really long Driver that guys' egos wouldn't let them play.




    There is a glass half full and a glass half empty perspective on this and both are right. They produced a ridiculously (potentially) low spin driver that if setup correctly for the player (ego aside) was stupid long. They also produced a painfully unforgiving driver that was a disservice to what the average golfer actually needs to play better golf and slathered it with marketing to keep it from flopping. It was an extremely shrewd business move that was as effective as it was cynical. The sub 9.5* drivers should not have even been offered to standard retail if they truly wanted what was best for the average joe.
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  • KGrinolsKGrinols Members Posts: 61
    edited Aug 2, 2018 #37
    ago33 wrote:


    I don’t even know how 17-1700 is possible and I play a Callaway sub zero with a t1100




    If you watch enough YouTube, you will see the trend for sure. Again, that number is distance 'at all costs' which isn't beneficial to the real game of golf where you only get to try once per hole. It's such a different game when you walk up to the tee box, and have 1 chance to get it into the fairway vs sitting on the range, or in front of a monitor, repeating your driver swing 10-20 times in a row. We can all luck ourselves into that 'one shot' when we get 20 chances and use each former shot, to help manipulate the next. We don't have that luxury on the tee box though, so no one realistically wants to chase 17/1700 for a driver they actually use on course. The margin of error is non existent.



    I didn't dive too deep into this, but Rick Shiels has 2 videos in the past couple months of 'longest drive comp' comparing the Rogue to the M3, and then the winner to the M4.

    Here are the longest shots from each video:



    Driver.png



    Both launched at 15.9 degrees, one with 1840 spin (323 yards) and the other with 1884 spin. (318 yards)

    It's not a coincidence.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 24,966 ✭✭
    jj9000 wrote:


    Many of you guys are forgetting the portion about lofting up in the 'loft up' campaign.



    Loft up...as in not the loft of your 2008 or 2018 Driver. More along the lines of a 12* or 14* SLDR Driver. Those higher lofted SLDRs absolutely delivered on what was advertised. Pure distance.



    I had mine paired up with an Oban Kiyoshi White, and it was great.



    The problem wasnt TMaG marketing. The problem was rooted inside Joe Golfer's ego. Guys couldn't fathom playing a 12* Driver, bought an 8.5* or 9.5* SLDR and couldn't get it off the ground.



    Let's no re-write history here, gents. TMaG pumped out a really long Driver that guys' egos wouldn't let them play.




    Absolutely true if you found the right loft /shaft combo. The only guys who hated it were the ones playing too little loft and the hookers. I play a fade and loved its heel bias. Easier to square up.
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  • pitchinwedgepitchinwedge Members Posts: 1,551 ✭✭

    jj9000 wrote:


    Many of you guys are forgetting the portion about lofting up in the 'loft up' campaign.



    Loft up...as in not the loft of your 2008 or 2018 Driver. More along the lines of a 12* or 14* SLDR Driver. Those higher lofted SLDRs absolutely delivered on what was advertised. Pure distance.



    I had mine paired up with an Oban Kiyoshi White, and it was great.



    The problem wasnt TMaG marketing. The problem was rooted inside Joe Golfer's ego. Guys couldn't fathom playing a 12* Driver, bought an 8.5* or 9.5* SLDR and couldn't get it off the ground.



    Let's no re-write history here, gents. TMaG pumped out a really long Driver that guys' egos wouldn't let them play.




    Absolutely true if you found the right loft /shaft combo. The only guys who hated it were the ones playing too little loft and the hookers. I play a fade and loved its heel bias. Easier to square up.




    What do you mean by heel bias? More weight in the heel? I think this may be true as I recall having a random pull hook with my SLDR 430. Hardly "unreliable", but it did make me scratch my head once in a while. Overall was a great club for me at the time.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,612 ClubWRX
    I’m just going to continue to be blissfully unaware of what my numbers are. I try soemthing on the course and if it works, I’ll likely play it.



    Possibly I’m not maximizing what could be, but it works well enough for me that at my age I’m not going to start chasing LM numbers.
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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members Posts: 1,781 ✭✭


    jj9000 wrote:


    Many of you guys are forgetting the portion about lofting up in the 'loft up' campaign.



    Loft up...as in not the loft of your 2008 or 2018 Driver. More along the lines of a 12* or 14* SLDR Driver. Those higher lofted SLDRs absolutely delivered on what was advertised. Pure distance.



    I had mine paired up with an Oban Kiyoshi White, and it was great.



    The problem wasnt TMaG marketing. The problem was rooted inside Joe Golfer's ego. Guys couldn't fathom playing a 12* Driver, bought an 8.5* or 9.5* SLDR and couldn't get it off the ground.



    Let's no re-write history here, gents. TMaG pumped out a really long Driver that guys' egos wouldn't let them play.




    Absolutely true if you found the right loft /shaft combo. The only guys who hated it were the ones playing too little loft and the hookers. I play a fade and loved its heel bias. Easier to square up.




    What do you mean by heel bias? More weight in the heel? I think this may be true as I recall having a random pull hook with my SLDR 430. Hardly "unreliable", but it did make me scratch my head once in a while. Overall was a great club for me at the time.




    Correct, the more weight you put to the heel/toe side of the driver the more you shift the CG in that direction creating a larger amount of real estate to the other side. So for a driver with a more heel shifted CG, there is more face available on the toe side of the CG location, and anything struck toe side of the CG will have gear effect spin imparted on the ball which in this instance encourages a draw. Combine that with the fact that extremely low MOI increases gear effect forces and you a recipe for a driver that is very easy to hook. Great if you have a heel miss, terrible if you have a toe miss.
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  • Big BenBig Ben Members Posts: 8,918 ✭✭
    edited Jul 16, 2018 #42
    I thought the Slider felt like a brick, possibly the worst feeling driver I've ever hit. And I'm one of those guys that can acheive a high initial launch with very low spin. Taylormade drivers in general feel sub par to me however, just dead. I'm not saying they don't perform just not for me AT ALL.
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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members Posts: 1,781 ✭✭
    edited Jul 16, 2018 #43
    Big Ben wrote:


    I thought the Slider felt like a brick, possibly the worst feeling driver I've ever hit. And I'm one of those guys that can acheive a high initial launch with very low spin. Taylormade drivers in general feel sub par to me howver, just dead. I'm not saying they don't perform just not for me AT ALL.




    Forward CG definitely can feel that way to some people. A more rearward CG creates a little more lively feeling at the bottom as the CG tries to catch up with the shaft and creates a little kick. The more forward the CG is the less this happens and that translates to what some people consider a very stable feeling and what others consider a stiffer, deader feeling.
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  • Big BenBig Ben Members Posts: 8,918 ✭✭
    That would make sense, I'm one of those MOI guys and won't trade for the CG.
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  • mosesgolfmosesgolf Members Posts: 6,830 ✭✭
    17 1700 was a pipe dream and never ideal for most golfers even if it could be achieved. I'm done looking for 7-10 yards on a launch monitor as it rarely gave me a driver that was also accurate. The heck with max distance. Give me MAX number of fwys hit.
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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members Posts: 1,781 ✭✭
    edited Jul 17, 2018 #46
    Big Ben wrote:


    That would make sense, I'm one of those MOI guys and won't trade for the CG.




    Its the same deal with stiffer vs. softer profile shafts. Real low/low shafts with tipping feel perfect to some guys and dead to others. Still others think softer shafts help with their tempo and keep them in sync while others feel like they are wet noodles. Personally I have enjoyed forward CG drivers with slightly softer shafts to get that pop that would otherwise be missing.
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  • pitchinwedgepitchinwedge Members Posts: 1,551 ✭✭
    Valtiel wrote:


    Correct, the more weight you put to the heel/toe side of the driver the more you shift the CG in that direction creating a larger amount of real estate to the other side. So for a driver with a more heel shifted CG, there is more face available on the toe side of the CG location, and anything struck toe side of the CG will have gear effect spin imparted on the ball which in this instance encourages a draw. Combine that with the fact that extremely low MOI increases gear effect forces and you a recipe for a driver that is very easy to hook. Great if you have a heel miss, terrible if you have a toe miss.




    Yups. I recall putting a **** in the toe area. My miss is definitely heel. Rarely hit out on the toe. The random hook totally makes sense now. image/scare2.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':scare2:' />
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  • KGrinolsKGrinols Members Posts: 61
    I just wanted to add to the post I had above. Today the guys at TXG were testing Angle of Attack, which drastically alters dynamic loft and spin. These were the results, where again, higher launch, lower spin, created maximum distance.

    Same ball speed, same driver, shaft, golfer etc. All Matt did was alter his AoA to manipulate launch characteristics. I really wish they would have cranked his loft up a few degrees and done the test again to try and creep up to the 17/1700 mark, but I digress. TXG commented that the slower your swing speed, the more launch you'll want to add. Matt's driver swing speed is 117mph for this test, if I recall correctly.



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  • grantc79grantc79 Members Posts: 422 ✭✭
    edited Aug 2, 2018 #49
    Physics is physics doesn't matter if you swing it fast or slow.



    This is PGA caliber distance with 13.6 launch and 1497 spin swinging up at 105.5 mph.



    Different driver won't do this, different swing will though. Thats why you don't see the marketing you either swing it up or you don't and you don't need different clubs you need a different swing.
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  • grantc79grantc79 Members Posts: 422 ✭✭
    edited Aug 2, 2018 #50
    Not swinging as much up on it which mean spin goes up and launch goes down.



    Not that much farther considering added speed.
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  • pitchinwedgepitchinwedge Members Posts: 1,551 ✭✭
    So like I said in my OP, lots of bashing in regards to 17/1700. image/black eye.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':black eye:' />



    The SLDR is history but there are many newer low spin driver/shaft combos out there. Again, despite the naysayers, its certain some folks have the swing and the equipment to consistently hit these numbers and still find a high % of fairways. If this is you, what are you using?
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  • TheRavenTheRaven Members Posts: 59 ✭✭
    I think there has to be a balance between distance and accuracy. 13-14* at around 2200 produced the best results for me when I was taking lessons on a Trackman. My instructor emphasized that we are never chasing the ideal numbers or trying to get 0 / 0 face to path. Just trying to get consistent results you can rely on while playing.
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  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Posts: 367 ✭✭


    So like I said in my OP, lots of bashing in regards to 17/1700. image/black eye.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':black eye:' />



    The SLDR is history but there are many newer low spin driver/shaft combos out there. Again, despite the naysayers, its certain some folks have the swing and the equipment to consistently hit these numbers and still find a high % of fairways. If this is you, what are you using?






    I guess I'm one of those guys "still" using the SLDR (12*). Difference for me is that I just bought it a couple of years ago, but it's not going to be replaced by anything newer anytime soon.



    I definitely have an ascending AoA (4* ish), spin's typically in the 1800-1900 range. I've been alternating recently between the stock 12* and 10.5* settings via the hosel adjustment - and notice not all that much difference. My flight is definitely higher than most of my playing partners. I'll call my distance "long enough for me" (as in I don't actively seek more) and accuracy is not a major issue. My driver is one of my more reliable clubs. I definitely do NOT see the miss that SLDR seems to be notable for - low flying misses that fall out of the sky at short carry distances. My usual flight from the driver is a fade (a learned one, as my natural tendency is a draw).



    Short story - still works for me.
  • ByeBye Posts: 1,307 ✭✭
    I had a launch monitor session when I got my current driver. Best I got to was 13 degrees of launch with 1770 spin. It was going sideways though, 17/1700 must be max inconsistency as well as optimal distance.
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  • spartan6910spartan6910 Go Green, Go White! San DiegoPosts: 367 ✭✭
    I can't even begin to dream of getting down to 1700. Last time I was on a LM, which was probably a year plus ago, I was at 13/2800-3000. Since then, I've had my two lowest rounds ever, so I'm not in a hurry to chase LM numbers. Swing your swing.
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  • grantc79grantc79 Members Posts: 422 ✭✭
    Bye wrote:


    I had a launch monitor session when I got my current driver. Best I got to was 13 degrees of launch with 1770 spin. It was going sideways though, 17/1700 must be max inconsistency as well as optimal distance.




    Actually I would argue the opposite. I basically hit a high knuckleball which means less spin which means side spin will have less effect logically.



    Higher spin players will have a lot more consistency issues especially when shaping the ball and playing in the wind.
    KZG 420 Driver
    Bridgestone Airmuscle 3 iron
    Edel Single Length 5-LW
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Posts: 367 ✭✭
    I'm not a launch monitor guy. I've used one a few times to just know my basic swing traits, but mostly used it out of curiosity, nothing else.



    But I am curious about why, for some of you, driver LM #s don't translate well to the course. Why is this? Of all the shots that you hit on the course, it seems driver off the teebox is the closest you're going to get to a sterile "lab-like" (i.e. indoor launch monitor) condition. Is it just because you feel different mental/psychological pressures when playing real golf? Wind?
  • DFS PFDDFS PFD Members Posts: 833 ✭✭
    grantc79 wrote:

    Bye wrote:


    I had a launch monitor session when I got my current driver. Best I got to was 13 degrees of launch with 1770 spin. It was going sideways though, 17/1700 must be max inconsistency as well as optimal distance.




    Actually I would argue the opposite. I basically hit a high knuckleball which means less spin which means side spin will have less effect logically.



    Higher spin players will have a lot more consistency issues especially when shaping the ball and playing in the wind.


    You're actually attempting to say you're more consistent with a knuckle ball than someone who plays 2500-3000 rpm? L O L
    TC Rogue SZ 8.8* Pro Orange 70TX/ ACCRA TZ5 75 M5
    M2 Tour 15* Kuro Kage DC 70TX
    790 UDI Tensei Pro White 100TX
    4-PW Apex Pro 19 DG X7's
    50* MG Raw Tour issue S400
    55* MG Raw Tour issue S400
    60* Hi-Toe Tour Issue S400
    J-DAY Spider
  • ByeBye Posts: 1,307 ✭✭
    grantc79 wrote:

    Bye wrote:


    I had a launch monitor session when I got my current driver. Best I got to was 13 degrees of launch with 1770 spin. It was going sideways though, 17/1700 must be max inconsistency as well as optimal distance.




    Actually I would argue the opposite. I basically hit a high knuckleball which means less spin which means side spin will have less effect logically.



    Higher spin players will have a lot more consistency issues especially when shaping the ball and playing in the wind.




    High spin and low spin both have pros and cons. The goal is finding a happy medium. I would argue that the high spin players perform better in the wind, but hey.



    Look up Trackman and side spin. It’s a whole new world!



    Keep hitting those moon knuckle balls.
    Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
    Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
    Titleist 816 H2 21 degrees - Aldila Rogue Black 85X
    Titleist 716CB 4-9 - X100
    Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
    Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
    Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
    Titleist Pro V1
  • grantc79grantc79 Members Posts: 422 ✭✭
    DFS PFD wrote:

    grantc79 wrote:

    Bye wrote:


    I had a launch monitor session when I got my current driver. Best I got to was 13 degrees of launch with 1770 spin. It was going sideways though, 17/1700 must be max inconsistency as well as optimal distance.




    Actually I would argue the opposite. I basically hit a high knuckleball which means less spin which means side spin will have less effect logically.



    Higher spin players will have a lot more consistency issues especially when shaping the ball and playing in the wind.


    You're actually attempting to say you're more consistent with a knuckle ball than someone who plays 2500-3000 rpm? L O L




    Look at Justin Thomas one of the most notorious upward swingers on tour.



    24th in Strokes gained off the tee.

    4th strokes gained tee to green.



    accuracy is crappy for him but when you are hitting 8 iron and everyone else is hitting 5-6 iron thats a huge difference.
    KZG 420 Driver
    Bridgestone Airmuscle 3 iron
    Edel Single Length 5-LW
  • erock9174erock9174 North Canton, OHMembers Posts: 3,928 ✭✭
    19//1500 is the new 17/1700. 17/1700 is old news.

    Driver: Ping Rhapsody 16*
    FW: Ping G400 SFT 5w
    Hybrids: Exotics XRail 23*/26*
    Irons: Ping G700 6-UW
    Wedges: Cleveland CBX 56*/60* - Callaway Sure Out 64*
    Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne H


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