Cheating

jigsaw1011jigsaw1011 Members Posts: 20 ✭✭
edited Jul 13, 2018 in Juniors/College Golf Talk #1
My son played a tournament yesterday. He finished his round and his score was posted. He was doing his stretches (has a back condition that requires certain stretches) by a table outside of the clubhouse. I went to pick my water bottle off the table. As I approach, I see a mother talking to a tournament official. For some reason, I have a feeling they are discussing my son (they are looking his way). After she leaves, I ask the official if there was a problem. He said the mom claimed my son didn't report his score correctly for his last hole and was cheating.



I speak with my son and he tells me his score which his playing partner had confirmed before attesting to the scores at the table. In addition, the chaperone for the group and scorekeeper confirmed his score was correct. I spoke to him after the incident.



For these tournaments parents are not allowed to spectate. They are lax about enforcing this rule when it comes to the last hole because parents are waiting for their kid's group to finish. This mother (her son came in second to my son finishing first) is waiting at the last hole and this is supposedly where she saw the incorrect scoring happen.



My son loves the game of golf and is a boy of integrity. I am angry she tainted his reputation with the tournament officials and other people she may have spoken to without having any facts. My son is very upset as well.





Has anyone ever dealt with something like this before? How would you proceed? We will be seeing her and her son for the rest of the summer at various tournaments.
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  • Bushwood Country ClubBushwood Country Club Bushwood Country Club Posts: 837 ✭✭
    edited Jul 13, 2018 #2
    I would tell my son I planned to confront her publicly before the next tournament in front of her son, and inform her that she was out of line AND that the scores were certified by the players and the chaperone.



    I’d also remind her golf is a game of integrity, and that parents arent allowed to spectate in the league



    And then I’d ask him how he feels about my plan and see what he says...
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  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 962 ✭✭
    I'd tell her to have a Coke and a smile and...



    Not really, that's some keyboard courage. I'd just ask my son if he got the score that's recorded and move on. Let him know that there will always be nosey parents that think their kids should have won and he's just got to be diligent about scores and following the rules. The other kid had 8 or 17 other holes to score better on.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • BertGABertGA Posts: 270 ✭✭
    So what did the rules official do? Did he carry her complaints over to your son, and acccuse him of misdeeds? Or did he simply acknowledge her accusation, and remind her that his score was signed for, certified by the marker and chaperone, and that reports of infractions by spectators is not welcome in this league?Did your son’s score stand, and did he win the tournament?



    If it’s the latter, I’m not confronting the parent...this time. I would thank the rules official for following the policy and trusting that your son, the marker and the chaperone all followed the rules. I would then explain to my son that there will always, always be people in this world that attempt to bring you down with lies and false accusations. You can’t always prevent this from happening, but as long as you follow rules, act honestly and carry yourself with integrity, you should prevail most every time.



    If that ever fails, you can teach hm the more aggressive, confrontational methods to defend his actions. I’m not a very confrontational guy, so I tend to save that for last. In my mind, unnecessary confrontations end up making both parties look bad. As long as your son got the well-deserved win, the two lessons in my mind are to stay true to course/don’t let distractions discourage you, and to watch that family like a hawk.



  • TigerMomTigerMom Posts: 222 ✭✭
    What age group was your son playing in?



    Was this a US Kids tournament?



    My daughter played in a US Kids tournament in the Girls 7-under group and rules were hardly being enforced it seemed



    For example, a girl swung and missed and said it was a "practice swing"



    Incidental contact with ball which caused it to move without calling a penalty



    Very loose counting of strokes



    When does it start becoming more serious in terms of enforcing rules?
  • jigsaw1011jigsaw1011 Members Posts: 20 ✭✭
    The scores were not changed because the players and scorekeeper all agreed on the score my son recorded. He did,indeed, place in first.



    This was not a USKG tournament but one run by our section's PGA. There are no caddies and no spectators. She was breaking the rules by spectating.
  • bwbwbwbw Members Posts: 56 ✭✭
    edited Jul 14, 2018 #7
    I would confront her, politely, and remind her:



    1. Her son agreed with the score.

    2. The person on the course with the group agreed with it as well.

    3. She is not allowed to spectate or mettle. Next time you will lodge a complaint with the tour director.
  • jigsaw1011jigsaw1011 Members Posts: 20 ✭✭
    Thanks for everyone's feedback.



    Just to clarify -- her son was not in my son's group. Her son is in the same division. She was watching groups on the last hole and my son happened to be in a group she observed.
  • dlc1914dlc1914 Members Posts: 20 ✭✭
    jigsaw1011 wrote:


    Thanks for everyone's feedback.



    Just to clarify -- her son was not in my son's group. Her son is in the same division. She was watching groups on the last hole and my son happened to be in a group she observed.




    Say nothing. Keep it moving Why deal with "her" problem? Focus on you and what you can control. To **** with everything else.
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    She's trying to get in your son's head



    I would actually talk to her nicely when I next saw her and tell her to mind her own business .... and that she was completely out of line.



    The cheating stories up here are epic in junior events, parents dropping balls in the rough for their kids etc etc
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  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,780 ClubWRX
    Although she has no real business doing so, I guess she can question your son's score, but calling him a cheater is flat out disgusting. There is a reason parents aren't allowed to spectate these events. It is the player's responsibility to officiate and score themselves.



    Personally, I would let it blow over this time, but if it happens again the mom definitely needs to be put in check. During our IMG tournament a few weeks ago, I could not believe the amount of arguing among golf parents. A few of the arguments almost escalated and got physical. It was not only the dads either. The Mom's were very feisty.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,003 ✭✭
    kekoa wrote:


    Although she has no real business doing so, I guess she can question your son's score, but calling him a cheater is flat out disgusting. There is a reason parents aren't allowed to spectate these events. It is the player's responsibility to officiate and score themselves.



    Personally, I would let it blow over this time, but if it happens again the mom definitely needs to be put in check. During our IMG tournament a few weeks ago, I could not believe the amount of arguing among golf parents. A few of the arguments almost escalated and got physical. It was not only the dads either. The Mom's were very feisty.




    Rumor has it there was a fight in the parking lot between dads at The Future Master's.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,019 ✭✭
    Hahahaaa...the things I no longer miss about junior golf (though most of our experiences were actually very good)!



    I did threaten to throw another dad in the bay once...lol (daughter playing US Kids at Seaview in Atlantic City), but I dont want to derail the thread.😁



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  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,780 ClubWRX

    kekoa wrote:


    Although she has no real business doing so, I guess she can question your son's score, but calling him a cheater is flat out disgusting. There is a reason parents aren't allowed to spectate these events. It is the player's responsibility to officiate and score themselves.



    Personally, I would let it blow over this time, but if it happens again the mom definitely needs to be put in check. During our IMG tournament a few weeks ago, I could not believe the amount of arguing among golf parents. A few of the arguments almost escalated and got physical. It was not only the dads either. The Mom's were very feisty.




    Rumor has it there was a fight in the parking lot between dads at The Future Master's.




    Not to threadjack, but one great thing about the IMG tournament is they have a zero tolerance for over coaching and any disruptive behavior by parents. A friend of mine got thrown out of the tournament after the first day for arguing with his son and making him play driver only for a few holes. image/stop.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stop:' />
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 962 ✭✭
    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,003 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:


    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.




    I have never been to a tournament where they allow you to video.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 826 ✭✭
    Played in a local last week where the dad was laying a club down as alignment parallel to the ball for every shot (putts included). The kids are 7. I asked him after the round if he was going to be taking his kid to any USKG Regionals this year. He said "yes". I then gently reminded him that it was illegal to use the club for alignment and that he would definitely get called on it at a regional/state/worlds event. We'll see what happens at this weeks local.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 826 ✭✭

    leezer99 wrote:


    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.




    I have never been to a tournament where they allow you to video.




    Yeah, I thought only spectators could video at most and they are supposed to stay a certain distance away (25 yards or more?).
  • Rory4PresRory4Pres Members Posts: 913 ✭✭
    Man...crazy. Send the mother a couple pictures of the trophy asking whether it looks better on your mantel or as a centerpiece on your dinner table.
  • hangontighthangontight Members Posts: 538 ✭✭
    I think that USKG should require any caddy parent to go through one time quick rule primer with the tour director before they are allowed to caddy. Thy don’t need to go through every rule, bit just highlight these common offenses and emphasize why it’s importabt for all players to play by the same rules and there is no “oh it’s OK, they are just learning “ attitudes. I honestly think that a lot of the parents who breach these obvious rules really are not golfers themselves and just don’t understand. They don’t get the principle of protecting the integrity of the field or the fact that yes, some of the rules are dumb but we still need to follow them.
  • JohnnyCashForeverJohnnyCashForever Members Posts: 240 ✭✭

    leezer99 wrote:


    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.




    I have never been to a tournament where they allow you to video.




    Not saying this is a bad rule, but why the prohibition? Just curious...
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,003 ✭✭
    wildcatden wrote:


    leezer99 wrote:


    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.




    I have never been to a tournament where they allow you to video.




    Yeah, I thought only spectators could video at most and they are supposed to stay a certain distance away (25 yards or more?).




    Usually 50 yards.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,780 ClubWRX

    wildcatden wrote:


    leezer99 wrote:


    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.




    I have never been to a tournament where they allow you to video.




    Yeah, I thought only spectators could video at most and they are supposed to stay a certain distance away (25 yards or more?).




    Usually 50 yards.




    Even at the NCAA championships it doesn't look like spectators are 50 yards away. It looks maybe 25 yards at best.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,003 ✭✭
    kekoa wrote:


    wildcatden wrote:


    leezer99 wrote:


    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.




    I have never been to a tournament where they allow you to video.




    Yeah, I thought only spectators could video at most and they are supposed to stay a certain distance away (25 yards or more?).




    Usually 50 yards.




    Even at the NCAA championships it doesn't look like spectators are 50 yards away. It looks maybe 25 yards at best.




    NCAA is different.



    The rule is there for several reasons in junior golf. The main two are to stop the coaching and to stop the talking from the parent to the kid. I think the biggest reason is when an official sees a parent chattering away at their kids they have something to fall back on when approaching the parent. From 50 yards away you can't whisper when coaching. You aren't going to get, I don't think, a parent talking to their kid at a NCAA Golf tournament.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 826 ✭✭


    NCAA is different.



    The rule is there for several reasons in junior golf. The main two are to stop the coaching and to stop the talking from the parent to the kid. I think the biggest reason is when an official sees a parent chattering away at their kids they have something to fall back on when approaching the parent. From 50 yards away you can't whisper when coaching. You aren't going to get, I don't think, a parent talking to their kid at a NCAA Golf tournament.




    USKG doesn't list a yardage to stay away. Only that spectators must stay on cart path and behind the group. http://www.uskidsgolf.com/tournaments/player-info/uskg-policies/cart-policy



    Anyway, I've never had a problem with spectators at a USKG event, but we are young and there is still plenty of time (fingers crossed)!! image/hunter.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hunter:' />
  • tsecortsecor Loading........ Members Posts: 4,003 ✭✭
    edited Jul 20, 2018 #26
    who ended up being right? I highly doubt your sons rep is tainted now....especially if she was incorrect.



    something sounds off here....not with the score, but seems like something is missing because it should have been cut and dry, end of story but it seems to have carried on a bit....maybe just the way you described it, but life is tough....I would think the moms rep is tainted but she is not unique in her handling of situations involving kids
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,003 ✭✭
    wildcatden wrote:



    NCAA is different.



    The rule is there for several reasons in junior golf. The main two are to stop the coaching and to stop the talking from the parent to the kid. I think the biggest reason is when an official sees a parent chattering away at their kids they have something to fall back on when approaching the parent. From 50 yards away you can't whisper when coaching. You aren't going to get, I don't think, a parent talking to their kid at a NCAA Golf tournament.




    USKG doesn't list a yardage to stay away. Only that spectators must stay on cart path and behind the group. http://www.uskidsgol...ies/cart-policy



    Anyway, I've never had a problem with spectators at a USKG event, but we are young and there is still plenty of time (fingers crossed)!! image/hunter.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hunter:' />




    When you get into the bigger/better events it is almost always 50 yards. 50 yards is a good rule of thumb.



    leezer99 wrote:


    I had to tell a dad of a kid we played with last week that he couldn't stand behind his kid and video while he was teeing off. Tried to tell me he was off to the side which was BS since I found him on IG with videos posted of the swings.



    Once a parent starts getting defensive like that I know they are there to win at any cost. He could have easily proven me wrong by showing me the video on his phone but didn't.




    I have never been to a tournament where they allow you to video.




    Not saying this is a bad rule, but why the prohibition? Just curious...




    Most of the time it is because they are using a phone. They don't want cell phones out on the course.
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 962 ✭✭
    wildcatden wrote:



    NCAA is different.



    The rule is there for several reasons in junior golf. The main two are to stop the coaching and to stop the talking from the parent to the kid. I think the biggest reason is when an official sees a parent chattering away at their kids they have something to fall back on when approaching the parent. From 50 yards away you can't whisper when coaching. You aren't going to get, I don't think, a parent talking to their kid at a NCAA Golf tournament.




    USKG doesn't list a yardage to stay away. Only that spectators must stay on cart path and behind the group. http://www.uskidsgol...ies/cart-policy



    Anyway, I've never had a problem with spectators at a USKG event, but we are young and there is still plenty of time (fingers crossed)!! image/hunter.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hunter:' />




    At a US Kids Regional event last year we had 30 spectators following our group of 3 kids. Me and my son were on our own since Mom and daughter stayed home. It was a total nightmare trying to keep that group quiet and out of the way while the kids were playing. Cart brakes being pushed when kids are teeing off, carts beeping because someone put it in reverse, little kids making a fuss, etc.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 826 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    wildcatden wrote:



    NCAA is different.



    The rule is there for several reasons in junior golf. The main two are to stop the coaching and to stop the talking from the parent to the kid. I think the biggest reason is when an official sees a parent chattering away at their kids they have something to fall back on when approaching the parent. From 50 yards away you can't whisper when coaching. You aren't going to get, I don't think, a parent talking to their kid at a NCAA Golf tournament.




    USKG doesn't list a yardage to stay away. Only that spectators must stay on cart path and behind the group. http://www.uskidsgol...ies/cart-policy



    Anyway, I've never had a problem with spectators at a USKG event, but we are young and there is still plenty of time (fingers crossed)!! image/hunter.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hunter:' />




    At a US Kids Regional event last year we had 30 spectators following our group of 3 kids. Me and my son were on our own since Mom and daughter stayed home. It was a total nightmare trying to keep that group quiet and out of the way while the kids were playing. Cart brakes being pushed when kids are teeing off, carts beeping because someone put it in reverse, little kids making a fuss, etc.




    At a regional and given the roughly $250 paid to play in such event, I would have called into the clubhouse to get someone out there to quiet them down and keep them back. I now this is all junior golf and it is to be fun, but at the regional/state/worlds, I expect a little more rigidity and etiquette. At the Local events, I say let's bring on the Happy Gilmore style....air horns and all!!! Haha
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,003 ✭✭
    edited Jul 20, 2018 #30
    wildcatden wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    wildcatden wrote:



    NCAA is different.



    The rule is there for several reasons in junior golf. The main two are to stop the coaching and to stop the talking from the parent to the kid. I think the biggest reason is when an official sees a parent chattering away at their kids they have something to fall back on when approaching the parent. From 50 yards away you can't whisper when coaching. You aren't going to get, I don't think, a parent talking to their kid at a NCAA Golf tournament.




    USKG doesn't list a yardage to stay away. Only that spectators must stay on cart path and behind the group. http://www.uskidsgol...ies/cart-policy



    Anyway, I've never had a problem with spectators at a USKG event, but we are young and there is still plenty of time (fingers crossed)!! image/hunter.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hunter:' />




    At a US Kids Regional event last year we had 30 spectators following our group of 3 kids. Me and my son were on our own since Mom and daughter stayed home. It was a total nightmare trying to keep that group quiet and out of the way while the kids were playing. Cart brakes being pushed when kids are teeing off, carts beeping because someone put it in reverse, little kids making a fuss, etc.




    At a regional and given the roughly $250 paid to play in such event, I would have called into the clubhouse to get someone out there to quiet them down and keep them back. I now this is all junior golf and it is to be fun, but at the regional/state/worlds, I expect a little more rigidity and etiquette. At the Local events, I say let's bring on the Happy Gilmore style....air horns and all!!! Haha




    When you get past US Kids, most of the parents walk so you don't have the problems like these. Most of the parents also move forward down the fairways to where the ball is more than likely going to land. Imagine your parents are staring down every single shot evaluating you. It is different when a parent is standing there than having someone else watch.



    Golf is so expensive, cutting out cart fees can result in anywhere between $500 and $1000 a year in expenses. Only time we rent a cart is if the weather looks really bad. Otherwise we pack up a backpack, bring some headphones, and enjoy the day.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 826 ✭✭


    When you get past US Kids, most of the parents walk so you don't have the problems like these. Most of the parents also move forward down the fairways to where the ball is more than likely going to land. Imagine your parents are staring down every single shot evaluating you. Golf is so expensive, cutting out cart fees can result in anywhere between $500 and $1000 a year in expenses. Only time we rent a cart is if the weather looks really bad. Otherwise we pack up a backpack, bring some headphones, and enjoy the day.




    Yeah cart fees are a killer. We utilize our push cart at nearly all events. Last weekend, I had been getting over a cold so was a bit tired and this particular course had 3 long walks between a few holes. The cart rental for 9-holes for me and my kid (who couldn't ride during the hole as you know) was $30!! The guy said it was $15/rider and I mentioned the "no ride" policy for my kid during holes and still no dice. And this is just a run-of-the-mill public course that was in average to poor condition at best. We'll be walking there next year for sure.
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