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Muscle Back "Blade" Irons --- History and Future?

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  • chippa13chippa13  2486WRX Points: 249Members Posts: 2,486
    Joined:  #602
    buzlin wrote:

    chippa13 wrote:


    The bolded is where I disagree. The more you increase one's dispersion, the greater a chance that a long 2 putt becomes a tough up and down and that can add strokes and turn an 82 into an 87 real fast.


    Fair enough. I don't disagree that there is an impact, and I don't disagree that it could turn an 82 into an 87. I just don't think slightly larger dispersion amounts to that large an impact that often, and nor do I think the impact is always negative. Which again, is my point for why there isn't a clear consensus, like there is for 440+cc drivers, which clearly have a positive impact on scores.




    As one who has struggled with the lightness of today's drivers and fell back on the Controller driving iron, I am all for smaller, heavier driver heads with shorter shafts. Heck, I took about 1.5 inches off of my current driver and still choke down quite a bit when the urge to hit it gets too strong to deny.
    Posted:
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf  3511WRX Points: 309Members Posts: 3,511
    Joined:  edited Aug 10, 2018 #603
    buzlin wrote:



    I am always amazed that people have this much energy for this debate.


    Sometimes I have to take a rest, but I really enjoy this subject. I do want to start a thread about why everyone isn't playing mallet putters. The science is clearly there. What's the deal?




    If you miss a 200 yard iron by 20%, your god knows where. If you miss a 20 foot putt by 20%, you have a 90%+ make rate four footer. Forgiveness with the putter is much less relevant because putts go such a shorter distance (and forgiveness given force F and off-center X will fix as a percent of the force - when you putt, F is tiny. When you hit a 5 iron, F is large). The correction is proportional to the deflection which is governed primarily by the force. In putting there is basically no force, so basically no deflection, so much less need for forgiveness.


    chippa13 wrote:

    buzlin wrote:


    I don't disagree, if we were playing on completely flat greens with symmetrical hazards, this would clearly have a definitive impact on scores. Unfortunately, golf isn't played like this. So what happens is that any gains you see in proximity to intended target, get diluted by much larger influences (slopes, poor club selection, bunkers, etc.....). This is all in context of scoring on a golf course. Elite players are able to make much better swings AND much better judgement about where their true target is, so for them they're able to clearly choose what works best for them. For recreational players, there are so many more things that influence their scores, so in the end, mid/long iron shots whether with MBs or CBs have a minuscule impact. This is why I believe you can't get a consensus because the evidence isn't conclusive enough for most players.



    Again, i'm not disagreeing with CBs being more "forgiving" than MBs, as evidenced by my bag, I just don't think the impact on scoring is as big as some want to make it. Anecdotal evidence is that thread about what impact MBs had on your game.



    All good.




    The bolded is where I disagree. The more you increase one's dispersion, the greater a chance that a long 2 putt becomes a tough up and down and that can add strokes and turn an 82 into an 87 real fast.




    Yeah, this is correct. Iron proximity to the hole is the number two most important skill to score (second only to penalty strokes). So it does matter, a ton, to your score. Some players can play blades and get closer, but almost all players will get closer on average with a GI iron.
    Posted:
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  • buzlinbuzlin NorCal 1013WRX Points: 163Members Posts: 1,013
    Joined:  #604




    Yeah, this is correct. Iron proximity to the hole is the number two most important skill to score (second only to penalty strokes). So it does matter, a ton, to your score. Some players can play blades and get closer, but almost all players will get closer on average with a GI iron.




    I won't disagree, because I don't have the numbers, and it does make sense. But, I really think this makes a much larger difference for an elite player. I'm telling you, mid-high cappers can toss strokes from everywhere and at anytime. You're clearly an accomplished player, so also think your ability to take advantage of proximity is likely higher than it would be for me. I'll take two from 10 ft almost as often as from 25ft, which again translates into maybe 1 stroke per round. Which again, 1 stroke clearly makes a big difference for elite players, but is nothing for a hack like myself.
    Posted:
    G400 LST, Tour 75 stiff
    915F 15, Rogue Black stiff
    913H, 19, 21, Tour Green stiff
    Miura CB57 4/5-pw KBS Tour stiff (or Tourstage 909 4/5-pw)
    Vokey, SM6, 50F, 54S, 58M
    Never Compromise Portofino
  • 1Mordrid11Mordrid1  751WRX Points: 157Members Posts: 751
    Joined:  #605
    buzlin wrote:



    I am always amazed that people have this much energy for this debate.


    Sometimes I have to take a rest, but I really enjoy this subject. I do want to start a thread about why everyone isn't playing mallet putters. The science is clearly there. What's the deal?




    I can tell you emphatically that I can 3 putt with a blade putter or a mallet putter......that must mean that the science behind a mallet putter is all nonsense and marketing bs !!!



    LoL... in July in league play I 3 putted from a foot and a half, so because my mid mallet designed putter did not save those horrible strokes, it must mean it is not "forgiving".
    Posted:
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  • buzlinbuzlin NorCal 1013WRX Points: 163Members Posts: 1,013
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    If you miss a 200 yard iron by 20%, your god knows where. If you miss a 20 foot putt by 20%, you have a 90%+ make rate four footer. Forgiveness with the putter is much less relevant because putts go such a shorter distance (and forgiveness given force F and off-center X will fix as a percent of the force - when you putt, F is tiny. When you hit a 5 iron, F is large). The correction is proportional to the deflection which is governed primarily by the force. In putting there is basically no force, so basically no deflection, so much less need for forgiveness.






    What about putts from outside of 20 ft? Wouldn't a putter with less dispersion lead to less three putts?



    I know we're going off topic, but it's an interesting tangent with regard to impact on scores. But also, shows perhaps the individuality of each player when it comes to scores?
    Posted:
    G400 LST, Tour 75 stiff
    915F 15, Rogue Black stiff
    913H, 19, 21, Tour Green stiff
    Miura CB57 4/5-pw KBS Tour stiff (or Tourstage 909 4/5-pw)
    Vokey, SM6, 50F, 54S, 58M
    Never Compromise Portofino
  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf  3511WRX Points: 309Members Posts: 3,511
    Joined:  #607
    buzlin wrote:



    Yeah, this is correct. Iron proximity to the hole is the number two most important skill to score (second only to penalty strokes). So it does matter, a ton, to your score. Some players can play blades and get closer, but almost all players will get closer on average with a GI iron.




    I won't disagree, because I don't have the numbers, and it does make sense. But, I really think this makes a much larger difference for an elite player. I'm telling you, mid-high cappers can toss strokes from everywhere and at anytime. You're clearly an accomplished player, so also think your ability to take advantage of proximity is likely higher than it would be for me. I'll take two from 10 ft almost as often as from 25ft, which again translates into maybe 1 stroke per round. Which again, 1 stroke clearly makes a big difference for elite players, but is nothing for a hack like myself.




    Your score will almost always be 95-(GIRx2). Iron play (assuming you don't drive it out of play) is the most important because of this fundamental equation. Which is why the blade user discussion is harmful to most (MOST, not all) players. Hitting the green so you have a putter in your head is how you score in golf. Period.



    A study over a massive number of rounds and a lot of golfers found this equation was off by 0.13 strokes high. The pros hit about 12 greens per round and average 71.1. 95-(12x2) is 71.



    Golf is paint by number. Hit it in play. Hit the green. Shoot good scores. Anything that helps you do those two things is good. Anything that doesn't is noise.
    Posted:
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    Adams Tight Lies Aldila RIP Beta 80 S-Flex cut to 42"
    j40 DPC 3-PW x100 SL
    Vokey SM7 50, 55, 60 s300
    Edel Putter
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf  3511WRX Points: 309Members Posts: 3,511
    Joined:  #608
    buzlin wrote:



    If you miss a 200 yard iron by 20%, your god knows where. If you miss a 20 foot putt by 20%, you have a 90%+ make rate four footer. Forgiveness with the putter is much less relevant because putts go such a shorter distance (and forgiveness given force F and off-center X will fix as a percent of the force - when you putt, F is tiny. When you hit a 5 iron, F is large). The correction is proportional to the deflection which is governed primarily by the force. In putting there is basically no force, so basically no deflection, so much less need for forgiveness.






    What about putts from outside of 20 ft? Wouldn't a putter with less dispersion lead to less three putts?



    I know we're going off topic, but it's an interesting tangent with regard to impact on scores. But also, shows perhaps the individuality of each player when it comes to scores?




    It does, for sure. However the most overwhelming factor in putting success is the ability to aim the putter. So a blade and mallet that are both aimed well pick the mallet. But if you aim a blade better is probably (PROBABLY) better to play it, because the forgiveness is less important than the aim.



    Its just hard to get F high enough to achieve deflection in a putter that actually matters.
    Posted:
    Wilson Triton 10.5 Rogue 125 msi 60 X-Flex
    Adams Tight Lies Aldila RIP Beta 80 S-Flex cut to 42"
    j40 DPC 3-PW x100 SL
    Vokey SM7 50, 55, 60 s300
    Edel Putter
  • MKPAPAMKPAPA Long Beach, California 525WRX Points: 94Members Posts: 525
    Joined:  #609
    let's stop asking for forgiveness.

    let's be better.

    let's be honest.

    get honest clubs.

    get better

    let's stop asking for forgiveness
    Posted:
    i'm playing nike everything till i'm not

  • chippa13chippa13  2486WRX Points: 249Members Posts: 2,486
    Joined:  #610
    It is easier to ask forgiveness than get permission.
    Posted:
  • buzlinbuzlin NorCal 1013WRX Points: 163Members Posts: 1,013
    Joined:  #611

    buzlin wrote:



    Yeah, this is correct. Iron proximity to the hole is the number two most important skill to score (second only to penalty strokes). So it does matter, a ton, to your score. Some players can play blades and get closer, but almost all players will get closer on average with a GI iron.




    I won't disagree, because I don't have the numbers, and it does make sense. But, I really think this makes a much larger difference for an elite player. I'm telling you, mid-high cappers can toss strokes from everywhere and at anytime. You're clearly an accomplished player, so also think your ability to take advantage of proximity is likely higher than it would be for me. I'll take two from 10 ft almost as often as from 25ft, which again translates into maybe 1 stroke per round. Which again, 1 stroke clearly makes a big difference for elite players, but is nothing for a hack like myself.




    Your score will almost always be 95-(GIRx2). Iron play (assuming you don't drive it out of play) is the most important because of this fundamental equation. Which is why the blade user discussion is harmful to most (MOST, not all) players. Hitting the green so you have a putter in your head is how you score in golf. Period.



    A study over a massive number of rounds and a lot of golfers found this equation was off by 0.13 strokes high. The pros hit about 12 greens per round and average 71.1. 95-(12x2) is 71.



    Golf is paint by number. Hit it in play. Hit the green. Shoot good scores. Anything that helps you do those two things is good. Anything that doesn't is noise.


    Seems like a calc for elite players, I've hit lots of greens, but ain't shot anything close to what that formula would suggest. Again, I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, except the magnitude of impact to scores for recreational players.
    Posted:
    G400 LST, Tour 75 stiff
    915F 15, Rogue Black stiff
    913H, 19, 21, Tour Green stiff
    Miura CB57 4/5-pw KBS Tour stiff (or Tourstage 909 4/5-pw)
    Vokey, SM6, 50F, 54S, 58M
    Never Compromise Portofino
  • chippa13chippa13  2486WRX Points: 249Members Posts: 2,486
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    I think there needs to be an adjustment to that formula which takes into account the impact of lost balls/penalty strokes.
    Posted:
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf  3511WRX Points: 309Members Posts: 3,511
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    chippa13 wrote:


    I think there needs to be an adjustment to that formula which takes into account the impact of lost balls/penalty strokes.




    They built it into the 95 number based on empirical evidence. That's why its not 90-GIRx2.



    Its empirical, but still pretty valid, and amazing how close - over time - players come to that score.
    Posted:
    Wilson Triton 10.5 Rogue 125 msi 60 X-Flex
    Adams Tight Lies Aldila RIP Beta 80 S-Flex cut to 42"
    j40 DPC 3-PW x100 SL
    Vokey SM7 50, 55, 60 s300
    Edel Putter
  • mahoniemahonie England 2683WRX Points: 373Members Posts: 2,683
    Joined:  #614
    buzlin wrote:





    Yeah, this is correct. Iron proximity to the hole is the number two most important skill to score (second only to penalty strokes). So it does matter, a ton, to your score. Some players can play blades and get closer, but almost all players will get closer on average with a GI iron.




    I won't disagree, because I don't have the numbers, and it does make sense. But, I really think this makes a much larger difference for an elite player. I'm telling you, mid-high cappers can toss strokes from everywhere and at anytime. You're clearly an accomplished player, so also think your ability to take advantage of proximity is likely higher than it would be for me. I'll take two from 10 ft almost as often as from 25ft, which again translates into maybe 1 stroke per round. Which again, 1 stroke clearly makes a big difference for elite players, but is nothing for a hack like myself.




    I must have posted this quote a hundred times in these threads. Taken from a TM article on here re: Rocketbladz Tour:



    “So why would a tour player choose to play a shorter-flying iron with the sweet spot the size of a pea when he or she could have a longer-flying iron with a sweet spot the size of a quarter? According to Toulon, tour players like blade irons despite their small sweet spots because they’re “slow everywhere.” So even though one-piece forged irons don’t fly as far as multi-material irons, they tend to fly around the same distance on center hits as on slight mis-hits. For better players who make contact near the sweet spot nearly every time, the improved distance control means more birdie chances.”



    More often than not, my mishits finish pin high with the MP4s. They may be typically left or right but they are pin high. With the Nike Split cavs I played before it was a lot more variable...I experienced the knuckleball from the fairway where I hit slightly high on the face and the ball sailed the green by 10 yards. My home course has far more trouble long than short and that knuckleball punished me on occasion..it just doesn’t happen with the MP4s.
    Posted:
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    Radius Classic 8
  • BiggErnBiggErn  2703WRX Points: 601Members Posts: 2,703
    Joined:  #615
    mahonie wrote:
    buzlin wrote:





    Yeah, this is correct. Iron proximity to the hole is the number two most important skill to score (second only to penalty strokes). So it does matter, a ton, to your score. Some players can play blades and get closer, but almost all players will get closer on average with a GI iron.




    I won't disagree, because I don't have the numbers, and it does make sense. But, I really think this makes a much larger difference for an elite player. I'm telling you, mid-high cappers can toss strokes from everywhere and at anytime. You're clearly an accomplished player, so also think your ability to take advantage of proximity is likely higher than it would be for me. I'll take two from 10 ft almost as often as from 25ft, which again translates into maybe 1 stroke per round. Which again, 1 stroke clearly makes a big difference for elite players, but is nothing for a hack like myself.




    I must have posted this quote a hundred times in these threads. Taken from a TM article on here re: Rocketbladz Tour:



    “So why would a tour player choose to play a shorter-flying iron with the sweet spot the size of a pea when he or she could have a longer-flying iron with a sweet spot the size of a quarter? According to Toulon, tour players like blade irons despite their small sweet spots because they’re “slow everywhere.” So even though one-piece forged irons don’t fly as far as multi-material irons, they tend to fly around the same distance on center hits as on slight mis-hits. For better players who make contact near the sweet spot nearly every time, the improved distance control means more birdie chances.”



    More often than not, my mishits finish pin high with the MP4s. They may be typically left or right but they are pin high. With the Nike Split cavs I played before it was a lot more variable...I experienced the knuckleball from the fairway where I hit slightly high on the face and the ball sailed the green by 10 yards. My home course has far more trouble long than short and that knuckleball punished me on occasion..it just doesn’t happen with the MP4s.




    I didn’t know you could drop 9 irons inside a hoola hoop all day long. A pros slight mishit isn’t the same as yours. They don’t hit 1/4” of the center there mishit is probably more like 1/16” off center or half a groove high or low. Comparing your game to a pro’s is just one of the fallacy’s in the debate.
    Posted:
  • mahoniemahonie England 2683WRX Points: 373Members Posts: 2,683
    Joined:  #616
    BiggErn wrote:

    mahonie wrote:
    buzlin wrote:





    Yeah, this is correct. Iron proximity to the hole is the number two most important skill to score (second only to penalty strokes). So it does matter, a ton, to your score. Some players can play blades and get closer, but almost all players will get closer on average with a GI iron.




    I won't disagree, because I don't have the numbers, and it does make sense. But, I really think this makes a much larger difference for an elite player. I'm telling you, mid-high cappers can toss strokes from everywhere and at anytime. You're clearly an accomplished player, so also think your ability to take advantage of proximity is likely higher than it would be for me. I'll take two from 10 ft almost as often as from 25ft, which again translates into maybe 1 stroke per round. Which again, 1 stroke clearly makes a big difference for elite players, but is nothing for a hack like myself.




    I must have posted this quote a hundred times in these threads. Taken from a TM article on here re: Rocketbladz Tour:



    “So why would a tour player choose to play a shorter-flying iron with the sweet spot the size of a pea when he or she could have a longer-flying iron with a sweet spot the size of a quarter? According to Toulon, tour players like blade irons despite their small sweet spots because they’re “slow everywhere.” So even though one-piece forged irons don’t fly as far as multi-material irons, they tend to fly around the same distance on center hits as on slight mis-hits. For better players who make contact near the sweet spot nearly every time, the improved distance control means more birdie chances.”



    More often than not, my mishits finish pin high with the MP4s. They may be typically left or right but they are pin high. With the Nike Split cavs I played before it was a lot more variable...I experienced the knuckleball from the fairway where I hit slightly high on the face and the ball sailed the green by 10 yards. My home course has far more trouble long than short and that knuckleball punished me on occasion..it just doesn’t happen with the MP4s.




    I didn’t know you could drop 9 irons inside a hoola hoop all day long. A pros slight mishit isn’t the same as yours. They don’t hit 1/4” of the center there mishit is probably more like 1/16” off center or half a groove high or low. Comparing your game to a pro’s is just one of the fallacy’s in the debate.




    I didn’t say I’m hitting 9 irons into hooplas...my misses are generally pin high which makes a helluva difference when most of the trouble is short or long.
    Posted:
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    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
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    Radius Classic 8
  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove alberta 1761WRX Points: 208ClubWRX Posts: 1,761
    Joined:  #617
    this argument is always filled with opinion being presented as fact... and that is from both sides of the argument. That's right... lots of opinion, assumption, guessing, insulting, and taking things out of context. what have I missed?
    Posted:


    Driver: TM M6 (10.5 deg) with Project X Smoke 60X playing at 45 inches
    3Wood: TM M6 (14 deg) with Project X Smoke 70X playing at 43 inches
    2 iron: TM 790 UDI bent to 19 degrees with Project X HZRDUS 85 X (6.5) at 39.5 inches
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