Verrado Victory (rant)

Elsewhere in this section you may see my rave reviews for Verrado Victory, especially after I played a round in some high winds that made the course play really interestingly. I commented on the blind shots that would be a problem if the course is ever busy (as presumably they would hope it would be). Well today, after my debacle at Southern Dunes (see the 2018 Phoenix conditions thread for a description of that), I played the Victory course again. Granted, I wasn't in the best mood, but...

...what an awful design, and it is really 3 recurring themes that make it that way.

1) Blind shots: almost never a good design "feature", some courses may have 1 or 2 that make sense based on the lay of the land. With Victory, it is a recurring theme, and usually, if not always, for no good reason - it's not something they had to do, it's something they went out of their way to do. In addition to multiple tee shots that are blind or semiblind, there are hollows they have created in various places, some next to greens, some literally just in the middle of the fairway (#17 is the worst example, there are several others).

2) More problems with the hollows: there just isn't anything strategic about playing them. Each time I have played, the hollows are cut to the same height as the fairways, so the blind shot comes into play but there isn't any other penalty for going into them. Of course, it would be much worse if they didn't cut them to fairway height, then that would add the additional penalty, and time to look for the ball, so presumably they would never let them grow out except for pro tournaments (which they will never have there). It's not really that hard to hit out of them, but to pick a line requires walking up the incline, picking the spot, going back down to the ball, with the additional question with some as to whether there is any additional yardage that has to get figured in. There are several greenside ones as well, with the same issues.

3) It's not a walkable course, just far too many holes with long distances between them. But it is just as bad, if not worse, playing from a cart, as the cart paths around the greens are ridiculously far from the green complexes themselves. Not an issue on a day when the course isn't crowded, but something that will add at least 1/2 hour, probably more, on a busy day. Reminds me of Cholla in that regard - the course could have been designed differently, or at least the cart paths could have been placed differently - but it just will make for long rounds if/when the course is playing cart path only or if the course is crowded.

It probably doesn't help that it reminds me of the Lehman team's redesign of Verde River, particularly the first hole. Only it's like 18 of those (of course an exaggeration, but still....). A big hole in the middle of the fairway (in the case of Verde River, filled with sand) that makes the hole play with difficulty for high handicappers but doesn't come into play for low ones. The essence of bad design: let's make the course play more difficult for high handicappers with "features" that won't come into play for most better golfers.

That said, I still like the Founder's course at Verrado, pretty much absent any of these issues.

Anyone else who has played it, please chime in. I might go play it when the wind is up (it's literally on the side of a mountain, very exposed) and I know it won't be crowded, but otherwise, nah...

I have played Victory 2x now. I come out twice every winter and stay with a friend who lives just north of Verrado so we always play most of our golf on the west side. I would for sure play both Founders and Estrella before Victory, but I do think it is a good golf course. I believe it is just one of those courses that you need to play a few times in order to get lines off the tees. There is a lot more landing area though than it appears when standing on the tees. If they had GPS on the carts that sure would help a player when there for the first time.

I agree with your point about better players and the hollows in the fairway part of holes. It is not ideal to hit in them, but it doesn't create a huge problem either. The ones around the greens I like as they force you to hit shots into the green that cannot be missed in the wrong spots. I think the green complex's and the slopes/hallows around the greens are Victory's defense. From one tee up from the tips it is not a long course so the green's and slopes away from all the greens are the only thing that makes it challenging. I have played the course once in high winds and I can say for sure that this course becomes a major challenge in high winds. You can tell immediately why the landing areas are so generous even though it doesn't appear that way from the tee.

It's not walkable, but as a guy from MN that comes and plays most of the destination courses in the valley I personally cannot think of too many courses that are walkable in my mind down there. It will be interesting to see what the course looks like when the housing development is done. If the rest of the course starts to look like 15, (I think that is the hole. Par 5 on back with houses stacked along both sides of fairway) then I don't think the course will get much love from the general public and will mostly be more of a track for the people of the community.

I like the course....though the first time i played it I was indifferent. Definitely a course that I like the more I play. I'm not a fan of blind shots but here the fairways are so wide that I don't mind them...plus a lot of the tee shots are more intimidating in appearance than play. It's a course that you can easily shoot a good number on or blow up depending on how confident you are that day. All I ask for a course is that good shots are rewarded while bad shots are punished...this course provides that

I just played Victory for the first time today and I played with a regular group of retirees there. While they helped me a great deal with where I was trying to put the ball on the more blind shots, I still found that I lost probably 4 shots to blind tees or not knowing lines. It's a little frustrating to have to pay $10 for a meh yardage book in the pro shop to be able to understand the general direction you have to hit the golf ball. I do have to say it was one of the prettier courses I've ever played though.

> @Mohigolf1207 said:

> I just played Victory for the first time today and I played with a regular group of retirees there. While they helped me a great deal with where I was trying to put the ball on the more blind shots, I still found that I lost probably 4 shots to blind tees or not knowing lines. It's a little frustrating to have to pay $10 for a meh yardage book in the pro shop to be able to understand the general direction you have to hit the golf ball. I do have to say it was one of the prettier courses I've ever played though.

you could always download a free app......18 birdies is great

>

> you could always download a free app......18 birdies is great

Additionally, they have a course outline thing on their website. I used that while playing there for the first time, and it helped a lot

Blind shots but wide open landing areas for the most part.

Never played the course. Sounds interesting.