A high handicap, slow swing speed golfers observations on golf balls.

bwhitishbwhitish Members Posts: 400 ✭✭
I am a 20 handicap who drives it about 200-210. I hit a 6 iron from 150. For the last few years I have been using the Callaway Super Soft.I got my only hole in one with it. Prior I used the Bridgestone E6 for about 4 years. This year I decided to try a urethane ball. Played a box of Srixon Q-Star Tours. Also got a sleeve of Pro V1's at a course with our round. I have been using one Pro V1 for two rounds now and broke 90 both times which is great for me. It does feel harder to me than the Super Soft or Q-Star Tour. I hit a very high ball so I have been able to stop my Super Softs very close to the ball marks. I am still not sure if the urethane balls really helped my game that much, but I have not lost any distance or sliced or hooked the ball any more than surlyn covered balls. So still undecided, but the more I play with it, the more I really like the Pro V1. Did this help anybody? Probably not because I am still very undecided. I did back the Pro V1 up about a foot on a 9 iron shot to a par three that I parred. I like the feel of the Pro V1 better than the Q-Star Tour, which I did not expect. Now I am going to order some Snell Blacks and continue the experiment. I have putted better than normal with the Pro V1 as well. Unfortunately I am way too inconsistent to really make valid comparisons.
Ping 9.5 K15 with Serrano R
Ping K15 3 Wood Stock R
Ping G15 20 Stock R
Ping G15 4-UW AWT R
Ping Tour S 56 KBS Tour S
Ping Anser 2 Karsten 1959

Comments

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Members Posts: 454 ✭✭
    I can get softfli's for $8, so I'm not going to pay $48 for pro v1's

    The ball I use doesn't seem to affect my score
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,768 ✭✭
    If you stop your approach shots OK with lower spin balls and you don’t attempt to play “low spinner” shots astound the green then you aren’t really needing the main advantages of Urethane balls. That said, as you have noted, off the tee with a driver the Surlyn balls are NOT going to help slices and hooks, that’s a myth.



    So for you it comes down to feel, preference and cost. Doesn’t seem like the ball construction matters as much as it does for those of us who need more spin to keep a 150-yard approach on the green. I hit my clubs about the same distances as you and anything longer than an 8/9 iron tends to run out a lot with a SuperSoft type ball because my course has extremely firm greens most of the time.
    Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.
  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,178 ✭✭
    edited Aug 25, 2018 #4
    High handicap and slow speeder, too. I was sucked into the very soft balls craze. Softfli, SS etc. Then experimented with Zstars and thought the green side spin was cool. Then I saw the balls check up too soon. Two piece soft balls are too soft now for my liking. Now, I am going with a 3 piece surlyn ball, which has a nice mid soft feel and low-mid priced. The best ball in this category is the Gamersoft. No one seems to know if it is coming back. I'll try the E6 soft if the GS is gone.
  • ghoul31ghoul31 Members Posts: 454 ✭✭
    edited Aug 25, 2018 #5


    . I hit my clubs about the same distances as you and anything longer than an 8/9 iron tends to run out a lot with a SuperSoft type ball because my course has extremely firm greens most of the time.




    I replaced my 4 through 7 irons with woods.. They are easier to hit, and make the balls fly high and land soft on the greens
  • Lagavulin62Lagavulin62 Members Posts: 1,976 ClubWRX
    Another example of play what works best for you. Thats whats fun about the gane. So many options.
  • NoTalentLeftyNoTalentLefty Members Posts: 3,442 ✭✭
    My dad loved Pro V1s. He had a bad ankle/leg that kept him from having anything close to a great swing. But that ball matched what he was looking for in a ball. Never bought new but blemish balls. Loved that man and I miss him today and his like for Pro V1s.
    Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

    Driver Titleist 913 D3 44 inches also a Cleveland Classic 310 43.5 inches
    3 and 5 Wood Ping G15
    3-5 Hybrids Cobra Baffler XL
    6-GW Titleist AP1s
    53 degree Wedge Titleist AP1
    58 degree SW Vokey SM6
    Putter White Hot V LINE Fang w/round Edel Grip
  • msgmsg Members Posts: 315 ✭✭
    I am a 8 handicapper and average swing speed at 90 - 95. I have tried Pro V1's and TP5's in the past. I liked them but I cannot justify the price. I usually play Supersofts and Chrome Softs. I usually buy used golf balls online. I am cheap, I know.



    Off the driver, I cannot see any difference. Off irons, not a lot. Off my wedges and 100 yards in and around the green, there is where I can see the difference. The urethane golf balls do spin more. Sure it does help me control my shots around the green and make the ball stop on a dime. But I have also recorded my lowest scores in my life using a Supersoft and sometimes, the beat up and used ones.



    A few days ago we played a very hard course but a beautiful one. So many OB's and hazards so the el cheapo in me, brought my Supersoft's to the game. Well I shot 50 the front 9, thanks to the trees and the deep forest. The back 9 I shot -1. Again I just used my Supersofts. Greens were soft though, so the approach shots did stick a lot. But even on dried up greens, my Supersofts can hold them with no problem.



    Try what works for you. What may work for us may not work for you. For me, going forward, I'll stick with my two piece golf balls.
  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,199 ✭✭
    I am a 9 handicap, used to be 6. I hit the ball pretty straight, and I don't lose many balls. I tried the AVX and like it; I was playing Pro V1x last year along with NXT Tour in softer conditions.



    I might buy some Srixon Soft Feel for the Fall - hopefully that El Nino thing works out and i can play in November and December like I did a few years ago.



    I also need to try the TP5.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • chippa13chippa13 Members Posts: 2,248 ✭✭
    I only buy ProVs or ProVx when I get gift money so I'm playing free balls with those. Otherwise, I'm buying cut rate premiums and, when the day turns south, cut rate mid-range balls come into play.
  • uitar9uitar9 Members Posts: 370 ✭✭
    Play the wilson duo. I'm a 20. If I hit it well, it's a fine ball and the price isn't bad. Usually I can find 3 dozen for $48. Plus it comes in orange for spring and fall. lol
    [font=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]WITB[/font]
    [font=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]KZG OS11 12 degree driver
    Calloway 16 5-wood
    Calloway
    [/font]
    [font=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]20.5 [/font][font=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]heavenwood
    Cobra 24.5 9-wood
    [/font]

    [font=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]KZG 5-PW irons[/font]
    [font=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]KZG 52 and 56 wedges[/font]
    [font=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]TM Spider mallet[/font]
  • johnnythundersjohnnythunders ClubWRX Posts: 1,695 ✭✭
    edited Aug 26, 2018 #12
    Similar speed was using Callaway super soft and hot 70 but now ive switched to the Cut 3 piece surly, goes straighter and about 5 yards farther for me. I cut the trial pack and liked them the best. They are $20 a dozen.
    2019bag<br />Callaway Fusion 10.5 Fuji evo 3 661 stiff <br />Ping g400 5/7 fw<br />hybrids Rogue x 5,6<br>Cobra f-max Smackwrap one length 6-gw,Speedback one length sand wedg<br />Taylormade Copper Mullen 2 <br />backup driver Mizuno St 190 10.5 with Fuji V 661 stiff-regular. Ball: Supersoft, Kirkland 3-piece and Cut Grey and White
  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,178 ✭✭


    Similar speed was using Callaway super soft and hot 70 but now ive switched to the Cut 3 piece surly, goes straighter and about 5 yards farther for me. I cut the trial pack and liked them the best. They are $20 a dozen.




    Cut White? How do they feel? mid soft or firm?
  • johnnythundersjohnnythunders ClubWRX Posts: 1,695 ✭✭


    Similar speed was using Callaway super soft and hot 70 but now ive switched to the Cut 3 piece surly, goes straighter and about 5 yards farther for me. I cut the trial pack and liked them the best. They are $20 a dozen.
    Tanner25 wrote:



    Similar speed was using Callaway super soft and hot 70 but now ive switched to the Cut 3 piece surly, goes straighter and about 5 yards farther for me. I cut the trial pack and liked them the best. They are $20 a dozen.




    Cut White? How do they feel? mid soft or firm?




    They were the white and were 14.95 which is a deal, they felt firm. Not soft like Callaway got used to them in a few holes.
    2019bag<br />Callaway Fusion 10.5 Fuji evo 3 661 stiff <br />Ping g400 5/7 fw<br />hybrids Rogue x 5,6<br>Cobra f-max Smackwrap one length 6-gw,Speedback one length sand wedg<br />Taylormade Copper Mullen 2 <br />backup driver Mizuno St 190 10.5 with Fuji V 661 stiff-regular. Ball: Supersoft, Kirkland 3-piece and Cut Grey and White
  • erock9174erock9174 North Canton, OHMembers Posts: 3,932 ✭✭
    I swing similar 90ish with driver. 9-11 cap depending on the day.

    I’ve always played 2pc low compression balls like the Supersoft and Soft Feel. Shot decent scores with them.



    This season I wanted to give Urethane a try. Right now I’m hooked on the Chrome Soft Truvis. Like the OP’s results I am seeing the same thing off the driver. Perhaps even approach shots too. The major difference I see in is my chipping game. The Urethane balls have that slight bit of check and the hop and roll seems more predictable.



    Perhaps the other advantage I see is if you need to play a short sided flop. Does seem to stop quicker.

    Driver: Ping Rhapsody 16*
    FW: Ping G400 SFT 5w
    Hybrids: Exotics XRail 23*/26*
    Irons: Ping G700 6-UW
    Wedges: Cleveland CBX 56*/60* - Callaway Sure Out 64*
    Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne H


  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 9,768 ✭✭
    erock9174 wrote:


    I swing similar 90ish with driver. 9-11 cap depending on the day.

    I've always played 2pc low compression balls like the Supersoft and Soft Feel. Shot decent scores with them.



    This season I wanted to give Urethane a try. Right now I'm hooked on the Chrome Soft Truvis. Like the OP's results I am seeing the same thing off the driver. Perhaps even approach shots too. The major difference I see in is my chipping game. The Urethane balls have that slight bit of check and the hop and roll seems more predictable.



    Perhaps the other advantage I see is if you need to play a short sided flop. Does seem to stop quicker.




    Bunker shots is one place it seems to matter a lot too. Maybe even more than chipping or lob shots. Not that a Tour ball will spin and stop on a dime but they'll give you a fighting chance of keeping it within 10 feet of the hole instead of rolling out a long way.
    Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.
  • Twism86Twism86 Members Posts: 379 ✭✭
    I have similar stats as you and enjoy playing the higher end balls. I love the feel and feedback from them. However I adjust my ball choice on the course. If I'm likely to lose a lot of balls at a course, I play a cheaper ball.
    TM AeroBurner 9.5*
    TM SpeedBlades 4-PW
    Odyssey White Hot RX #1
    A bunch of random wedges
  • tareatingrattareatingrat Members Posts: 146 ✭✭
    It has a lot to do with your swing, too. At a 20 handicap, you're probably not hitting down with your irons as much as some. I'm not judging, I'm a 13 and I've just been able to get some backspin on my shots.



    I do find urethane balls are easier to stop on the greens now, as opposed to a few years ago. I've grown to like the predictability.



    It does take a bit of getting used to, as I used to get a fair bit of rollout. However, it really helps on distance control.



    And I'm a bit of a ball ho. That sounds awful. But I've tried a lot of golf balls.



    At a 20, it didn't matter what I played. It was more about getting a good swing on the ball. I loved the Hex Soft from Callaway.



    Now, I prefer a softer ball with decent spin. I really like the Titleist AVX, but it's ridiculously expensive. The Vice Pro Soft has worked well for me, too. I'm currently giving the Top Flite Gamer Urethane and Cut Blue's a try. Both are much harder than I like, and the Gamer Urethane durability is awful. The Cut Blue performs very nicely for the price, though.



    Then again, I have a buddy who's a 9/10hcp and plays anything he finds in the trees. He just goes out and shoots decent scores. Doesn't hit it far, but is really consistent.



    At the end of the day, finding a ball is an expensive experiment. People always say grab a sleeve and try them out for a round. At a 20, I lost two from a sleeve in two holes. Took a lot more than a sleeve to figure it out...

  • bwhitishbwhitish Members Posts: 400 ✭✭
    I am a sweeper of the ball for sure. Thanks for all the views and responses! More than anything I just love to play and enjoy the company of my friends. But I have broken 90 5 times this year and I am very happy. Biggest reason I am hitting the ball better is tempo. I try to get to the course early so I dont feel I am rushing.
    Ping 9.5 K15 with Serrano R
    Ping K15 3 Wood Stock R
    Ping G15 20 Stock R
    Ping G15 4-UW AWT R
    Ping Tour S 56 KBS Tour S
    Ping Anser 2 Karsten 1959
  • 1badbadger1badbadger Members Posts: 140


    If you stop your approach shots OK with lower spin balls and you don’t attempt to play “low spinner” shots astound the green then you aren’t really needing the main advantages of Urethane balls. That said, as you have noted, off the tee with a driver the Surlyn balls are NOT going to help slices and hooks, that’s a myth.



    So for you it comes down to feel, preference and cost. Doesn’t seem like the ball construction matters as much as it does for those of us who need more spin to keep a 150-yard approach on the green. I hit my clubs about the same distances as you and anything longer than an 8/9 iron tends to run out a lot with a SuperSoft type ball because my course has extremely firm greens most of the time.




    Surlyn covered balls DO help reduce hooks and slices...for players that have a tendency to hook or slice their shots. Players who usually hit the ball pretty straight wont notice much of a difference of course, but lower spinning balls are straighter...that's not a myth.
  • Lagavulin62Lagavulin62 Members Posts: 1,976 ClubWRX
    1badbadger wrote:



    If you stop your approach shots OK with lower spin balls and you don’t attempt to play “low spinner” shots astound the green then you aren’t really needing the main advantages of Urethane balls. That said, as you have noted, off the tee with a driver the Surlyn balls are NOT going to help slices and hooks, that’s a myth.



    So for you it comes down to feel, preference and cost. Doesn’t seem like the ball construction matters as much as it does for those of us who need more spin to keep a 150-yard approach on the green. I hit my clubs about the same distances as you and anything longer than an 8/9 iron tends to run out a lot with a SuperSoft type ball because my course has extremely firm greens most of the time.




    Surlyn covered balls DO help reduce hooks and slices...for players that have a tendency to hook or slice their shots. Players who usually hit the ball pretty straight wont notice much of a difference of course, but lower spinning balls are straighter...that's not a myth.








    A lesson on how and how not to throw a curve ball?
  • chippa13chippa13 Members Posts: 2,248 ✭✭
    A baseball with seams more raised will bend more than one with lower seams at the same spin rate.
  • Lancj1Lancj1 Members Posts: 883 ✭✭
    Im still a 18 handicapper - (I don't play many comps and don't relax into that environment, tend to save my worse scores for them) - although I have improved my golf quite significantly this year. I have shot a couple of 40 & 41 for 9 holes and 82 for 18 holes (par 71).



    I suppose I have become a little more discerning. I have started to appreciate the qualities of Urethane balls and have played with them quite a bit this year (pro v1 and Chrome Soft. I like the way they stop more quickly on the green and don't roll out as much, and think they have improved my putting consistency.



    I tend to start of every round with a "tour" ball, and see how things are today. If I am having a good day all is well. If not my stock ball is the Titleist/Callaway/Srixon two piece soft ball which I pick up whenever theres a two for one offer.



    Once I start keeping balls for 18 holes more regularly Its urethane all the way. I think theres a point when they make a difference but they won't knock ten shots off your score.
    G Max Driver, Tour 65 Stiff
    G400 3 & 5 Woods Alta CB Reg
    G400 2,3,4,5 Hybrids Alta CB Reg
    G410 Irons, 6-U, Green Dot, Alta CB Reg + 1/2"
    Glide Stealth 54 (SS) & 58 (WS) Green Dot, Alta CB Reg + 1/2"
    Ping Sigma 2 Valor, Stealth

    Disclaimer*

    I'm a handicap golfer in my 50's. Any opinions I have about golf equipment or professional golfers or the game in general should be taken as seriously as you would the opinions of a random guy in the fourball ahead of you who just shot 92 but is usually better than that.
  • Lagavulin62Lagavulin62 Members Posts: 1,976 ClubWRX
    Lancj1 wrote:


    Im still a 18 handicapper - (I don't play many comps and don't relax into that environment, tend to save my worse scores for them) - although I have improved my golf quite significantly this year. I have shot a couple of 40 & 41 for 9 holes and 82 for 18 holes (par 71).



    I suppose I have become a little more discerning. I have started to appreciate the qualities of Urethane balls and have played with them quite a bit this year (pro v1 and Chrome Soft. I like the way they stop more quickly on the green and don't roll out as much, and think they have improved my putting consistency.



    I tend to start of every round with a "tour" ball, and see how things are today. If I am having a good day all is well. If not my stock ball is the Titleist/Callaway/Srixon two piece soft ball which I pick up whenever theres a two for one offer.



    Once I start keeping balls for 18 holes more regularly Its urethane all the way. I think theres a point when they make a difference but they won't knock ten shots off your score.






    Very well put. I feel the same. Prefer my ProV1 but if I’m not getting it done may as well play with a lesser ball and not risk my best.
  • m d gm d g Members Posts: 37
    Not sure if I qualify as a high handicapper (8 index) but I am definitely a short hitter. Check out my mini 'review' of the AVX in that thread. It played great for me...
  • WrigglesWriggles Members Posts: 3,174 ✭✭


    My dad loved Pro V1s. He had a bad ankle/leg that kept him from having anything close to a great swing. But that ball matched what he was looking for in a ball. Never bought new but blemish balls. Loved that man and I miss him today and his like for Pro V1s.




    Your Dad probably viewed Titleist balls as the ultimate golf status symbol, as I did when I was growing up. Imagine, playing a dollar ball. Finding a Titleist back then was real luck, but usually, they had a big smile on them. One day (age 15 or so) I spied a new Titleist in a sand trap. Elated, picking it up, I found it had a massive cut, not even usable for a penniless boy.



    I play the Pro V's, when I find them. Only bought one dozen of Titleists in over 50 years of golf. They were still balata, at $20.
  • DuellerDueller Members Posts: 72 ✭✭
    I got caught up in buying the premium balls for years until I went and got a full bag fitting after solid hours spent with my fitter on the sim. I'm a 13 cap and found I am a naturally high spin player.



    I've played all the big name tour level offerings and couldn't really settle on anything I was happy to keep spending the money on. I picked up a dozen stock as a rock Q Star's on special one day after spinning my last handful of Pro V's off the planet and my game has improved as well as my bank account.



    The Q stars feel great off the putter, give predictable release off the wedge on pitch shots and can hop and stop on the best full wedge & iron shots a recreational player like me can muster. There is no remarkable distance off the driver but I'm more often in play on a bad swipe and if they do go astray it's a cheap lesson. My distances off all clubs are also more consistent and dare I say it reliable.



    For someone like me I don't need the extra rpm or the ability to zip the ball back onto a pin because my ability and game style don't need it.



    People go to the effort to get fit for clubs but I'm also an advocate for getting a ball fitting done as well as it would have saved me a heap of cash. Something extra to talk about with the fitter when we are all whacking away at the screen with the shop supply of brand balls maybe not the same as in your bag. Better yet bring your ball to the fitting and get two fittings for the price of one. Long live the Q Star.
    Driver: Ping G400 Max 8.4*, VTS silver S
    Fairway 5: Ping G400 17*, VTS silver S
    Hybrid 4: Ping G400 22*, VTS silver S
    Irons 5-PW: Srixon Z765, Steelfiber i110cw
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX 3 50* & 54* MG Steelfiber i110cw, Callaway MD PM Grind 60* Steelfiber i125cw.
    Putter: Cleveland Mezzo counterbalanced
    Bag/ Buggy: Bagboy Hybrid Chiller/ Caddy Tek EZ Fold
    Ball: Z Star XV Tour Yellow
  • bwhitishbwhitish Members Posts: 400 ✭✭
    Thanks Dueller! I need to get a ball fitting.
    Ping 9.5 K15 with Serrano R
    Ping K15 3 Wood Stock R
    Ping G15 20 Stock R
    Ping G15 4-UW AWT R
    Ping Tour S 56 KBS Tour S
    Ping Anser 2 Karsten 1959
  • Jersey golferJersey golfer Members Posts: 435 ✭✭
    Dueller wrote:


    I got caught up in buying the premium balls for years until I went and got a full bag fitting after solid hours spent with my fitter on the sim. I'm a 13 cap and found I am a naturally high spin player.



    I've played all the big name tour level offerings and couldn't really settle on anything I was happy to keep spending the money on. I picked up a dozen stock as a rock Q Star's on special one day after spinning my last handful of Pro V's off the planet and my game has improved as well as my bank account.



    The Q stars feel great off the putter, give predictable release off the wedge on pitch shots and can hop and stop on the best full wedge & iron shots a recreational player like me can muster. There is no remarkable distance off the driver but I'm more often in play on a bad swipe and if they do go astray it's a cheap lesson. My distances off all clubs are also more consistent and dare I say it reliable.



    For someone like me I don't need the extra rpm or the ability to zip the ball back onto a pin because my ability and game style don't need it.



    People go to the effort to get fit for clubs but I'm also an advocate for getting a ball fitting done as well as it would have saved me a heap of cash. Something extra to talk about with the fitter when we are all whacking away at the screen with the shop supply of brand balls maybe not the same as in your bag. Better yet bring your ball to the fitting and get two fittings for the price of one. Long live the Q Star.




    Which Q Star did you go with?
  • puttingmattputtingmatt puttingmatt Members Posts: 5,038 ✭✭
    Try a dozen of the Wilson Elite 50's, best ball at a buck apiece.

    12 dollars a dozen, soft , long, and if you lose it, your out a **** of a lot less then these other balls. Do a search on these boards, good write up on the performance of this ball.


    Play Golf.....Play Blades......Play Something Else.....Just Go Play.....
  • DuellerDueller Members Posts: 72 ✭✭

    Dueller wrote:


    I got caught up in buying the premium balls for years until I went and got a full bag fitting after solid hours spent with my fitter on the sim. I'm a 13 cap and found I am a naturally high spin player.



    I've played all the big name tour level offerings and couldn't really settle on anything I was happy to keep spending the money on. I picked up a dozen stock as a rock Q Star's on special one day after spinning my last handful of Pro V's off the planet and my game has improved as well as my bank account.



    The Q stars feel great off the putter, give predictable release off the wedge on pitch shots and can hop and stop on the best full wedge &amp; iron shots a recreational player like me can muster. There is no remarkable distance off the driver but I'm more often in play on a bad swipe and if they do go astray it's a cheap lesson. My distances off all clubs are also more consistent and dare I say it reliable.



    For someone like me I don't need the extra rpm or the ability to zip the ball back onto a pin because my ability and game style don't need it.



    People go to the effort to get fit for clubs but I'm also an advocate for getting a ball fitting done as well as it would have saved me a heap of cash. Something extra to talk about with the fitter when we are all whacking away at the screen with the shop supply of brand balls maybe not the same as in your bag. Better yet bring your ball to the fitting and get two fittings for the price of one. Long live the Q Star.




    Which Q Star did you go with?




    I went with the standard Q star 2 piece. I tried the AD333 Tour and it performed pretty much the same maybe slightly better check on pitch shots. I'm chipping a lot with my 9 iron now so I'm use too the q star roll out.
    Driver: Ping G400 Max 8.4*, VTS silver S
    Fairway 5: Ping G400 17*, VTS silver S
    Hybrid 4: Ping G400 22*, VTS silver S
    Irons 5-PW: Srixon Z765, Steelfiber i110cw
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX 3 50* & 54* MG Steelfiber i110cw, Callaway MD PM Grind 60* Steelfiber i125cw.
    Putter: Cleveland Mezzo counterbalanced
    Bag/ Buggy: Bagboy Hybrid Chiller/ Caddy Tek EZ Fold
    Ball: Z Star XV Tour Yellow
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