Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,258 ✭✭

    stickner wrote:


    I never understood not being able to post your score if you play as a single.


    Rule 1 states:

    "You are responsible for applying your own penalties if you breach a Rule, so that you cannot gain any potential advantage over your opponent..."




    The USGA expects you to play with integrity and by the rules, including calling penalties on yourself (even if nobody else sees the infraction).



    Why can't those standards be applied to someone playing solo?




    This thread is about 2019 Rule 13.2.


    Amen, hijacking this topic to argue about a 2-year-old rule change seems wildly inappropriate.
  • sticknerstickner Members Posts: 378 ✭✭
    davep043 wrote:


    stickner wrote:


    I never understood not being able to post your score if you play as a single.


    Rule 1 states:

    "You are responsible for applying your own penalties if you breach a Rule, so that you cannot gain any potential advantage over your opponent..."




    The USGA expects you to play with integrity and by the rules, including calling penalties on yourself (even if nobody else sees the infraction).



    Why can't those standards be applied to someone playing solo?




    This thread is about 2019 Rule 13.2.


    Amen, hijacking this topic to argue about a 2-year-old rule change seems wildly inappropriate.




    Wildly?
  • larrybudlarrybud Members Posts: 11,251 ✭✭
    27x10.5 wrote:


    I hate that I'm going to have to ask the question so many more times per round




    You don't. I'm going to pull it and if someone wants it back in they will have to ask.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    larrybud wrote:

    27x10.5 wrote:


    I hate that I'm going to have to ask the question so many more times per round




    You don't. I'm going to pull it and if someone wants it back in they will have to ask.




    Lol. I like that. Passive yet plenty aggressive.
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  • jekatojekato Members Posts: 90
    Might be easier hitting something above the ground than trying to roll a ball into a hole in the ground, or so I've heard.
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  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    jekato wrote:


    Might be easier hitting something above the ground than trying to roll a ball into a hole in the ground, or so I've heard.




    What????
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  • halliedoghalliedog Members Posts: 2,381 ✭✭

    Mcgeeno wrote:



    The pin is out if the ball is on the green. I would like to think I will never hit a putt poorly enough where the pin helps more than hurts. If playing by myself, the RoGs are irrelevant anyway.




    Pelz has done robotic tests showing the flag helps on almost every pace or angle from different distances.


    I have not read Pelz work. I have heard him discuss caveats. One is that the pin cannot be leaning which occurs more often than one would like. Also different diameter pins impact the results. I am not sure what he used or if he tested against all sizes available. Knowing the details in exactly how the tests were performed and how the data was analyzed is very important to understanding and applying the conclusions.




    As luck would have it, I just happen to have his Short Game Bible sitting right here.



    Cliff Notes version of how tests were conducted:

    - A device was used to roll the ball at measurable, consistent, precisely controlled speeds and directions. Device was set up 2 feet from hole.

    - Balls were rolled and measured: A) how far they rolled past a covered hole, B) How many putts stayed in with an uncovered hole with no pin, C) How many putts stayed in with an uncovered hole and the pin in

    - Each test was run at 3 different speeds: With the ball rolling 3 feet past the covered hole, 6 feet past the covered hole, and 9 feet past the covered hole

    - Each test also included putts that approached from 5 different directions: 1) dead center of pin, 2/3) left/right center of pin, and 4/5) left/right edge of pin

    - Each test was also conducted on flat, sharply uphill, and sharply downhill slopes (speed remained constant) since effective hole size increases/decreases based on slope

    - Any variables (such as green surface imperfections, cup not being cut level or edges worn) were "averaged out" by rolling 1000's of putts with both the pin in and out

    - In addition to "robot" testing, Pelz had a veteran PGA Tour pro also replicate the testing, and the results were duplicated in every test (with only slightly more scatter)



    Results:

    - Use the pin whenever the rules allow, unless it is leaning so far toward you that there is no room for the ball to fit in the hole (and remember that the rules allow you to adjust the pin straight up and down if you find it leaning, but do not require it. You can't adjust it to purposely lean in a manner that can be an advantage, but there's nothing that says if you find it that way you have to fix it).

    - Even if the pin is leaning slightly towards you or severely away from you, you should use it. If it is leaning away from you it effectively makes the hole larger. If it is leaning slightly towards you it will deflect the ball on a downward angle into the hole.

    - Even if you don't hit the pin dead center, it will aid you in making more putts than without. This is especially true for chipping downhill and at faster speeds.
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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,601 ClubWRX
    halliedog wrote:


    Mcgeeno wrote:



    The pin is out if the ball is on the green. I would like to think I will never hit a putt poorly enough where the pin helps more than hurts. If playing by myself, the RoGs are irrelevant anyway.




    Pelz has done robotic tests showing the flag helps on almost every pace or angle from different distances.


    I have not read Pelz work. I have heard him discuss caveats. One is that the pin cannot be leaning which occurs more often than one would like. Also different diameter pins impact the results. I am not sure what he used or if he tested against all sizes available. Knowing the details in exactly how the tests were performed and how the data was analyzed is very important to understanding and applying the conclusions.




    As luck would have it, I just happen to have his Short Game Bible sitting right here.



    Cliff Notes version of how tests were conducted:

    - A device was used to roll the ball at measurable, consistent, precisely controlled speeds and directions. Device was set up 2 feet from hole.

    - Balls were rolled and measured: A) how far they rolled past a covered hole, B) How many putts stayed in with an uncovered hole with no pin, C) How many putts stayed in with an uncovered hole and the pin in

    - Each test was run at 3 different speeds: With the ball rolling 3 feet past the covered hole, 6 feet past the covered hole, and 9 feet past the covered hole

    - Each test also included putts that approached from 5 different directions: 1) dead center of pin, 2/3) left/right center of pin, and 4/5) left/right edge of pin

    - Each test was also conducted on flat, sharply uphill, and sharply downhill slopes (speed remained constant) since effective hole size increases/decreases based on slope

    - Any variables (such as green surface imperfections, cup not being cut level or edges worn) were "averaged out" by rolling 1000's of putts with both the pin in and out

    - In addition to "robot" testing, Pelz had a veteran PGA Tour pro also replicate the testing, and the results were duplicated in every test (with only slightly more scatter)



    Results:

    - Use the pin whenever the rules allow, unless it is leaning so far toward you that there is no room for the ball to fit in the hole (and remember that the rules allow you to adjust the pin straight up and down if you find it leaning, but do not require it. You can't adjust it to purposely lean in a manner that can be an advantage, but there's nothing that says if you find it that way you have to fix it).

    - Even if the pin is leaning slightly towards you or severely away from you, you should use it. If it is leaning away from you it effectively makes the hole larger. If it is leaning slightly towards you it will deflect the ball on a downward angle into the hole.

    - Even if you don't hit the pin dead center, it will aid you in making more putts than without. This is especially true for chipping downhill and at faster speeds.


    I found a 2007 article that provided the same info. That test was specific to chipping given the high speed the ball was travelling when it hit the pin. I would speculate that if he repeated the test with typical putting speed, the results would show a wash or slight advantage with the pin out.
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  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,031 ✭✭
    It has all been said, but I can not resist adding my $.02.



    It will be very annoying to have to remove and replace the pin several times on the green as there is sure to be a split of "in" guys vs "out" guys.



    If they had to have this rule, they should have limited it to the players first putt once reaching the green.



    Personally I believe pin out is more effective for making putts. I read Pelz's work ages ago and what always bothered me is if it was so definitive, why do the people who do this for living (including dechambeu) pull the pin on short chips?
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,621 ✭✭

    halliedog wrote:


    Mcgeeno wrote:



    The pin is out if the ball is on the green. I would like to think I will never hit a putt poorly enough where the pin helps more than hurts. If playing by myself, the RoGs are irrelevant anyway.




    Pelz has done robotic tests showing the flag helps on almost every pace or angle from different distances.


    I have not read Pelz work. I have heard him discuss caveats. One is that the pin cannot be leaning which occurs more often than one would like. Also different diameter pins impact the results. I am not sure what he used or if he tested against all sizes available. Knowing the details in exactly how the tests were performed and how the data was analyzed is very important to understanding and applying the conclusions.




    As luck would have it, I just happen to have his Short Game Bible sitting right here.



    Cliff Notes version of how tests were conducted:

    - A device was used to roll the ball at measurable, consistent, precisely controlled speeds and directions. Device was set up 2 feet from hole.

    - Balls were rolled and measured: A) how far they rolled past a covered hole, B) How many putts stayed in with an uncovered hole with no pin, C) How many putts stayed in with an uncovered hole and the pin in

    - Each test was run at 3 different speeds: With the ball rolling 3 feet past the covered hole, 6 feet past the covered hole, and 9 feet past the covered hole

    - Each test also included putts that approached from 5 different directions: 1) dead center of pin, 2/3) left/right center of pin, and 4/5) left/right edge of pin

    - Each test was also conducted on flat, sharply uphill, and sharply downhill slopes (speed remained constant) since effective hole size increases/decreases based on slope

    - Any variables (such as green surface imperfections, cup not being cut level or edges worn) were "averaged out" by rolling 1000's of putts with both the pin in and out

    - In addition to "robot" testing, Pelz had a veteran PGA Tour pro also replicate the testing, and the results were duplicated in every test (with only slightly more scatter)



    Results:

    - Use the pin whenever the rules allow, unless it is leaning so far toward you that there is no room for the ball to fit in the hole (and remember that the rules allow you to adjust the pin straight up and down if you find it leaning, but do not require it. You can't adjust it to purposely lean in a manner that can be an advantage, but there's nothing that says if you find it that way you have to fix it).

    - Even if the pin is leaning slightly towards you or severely away from you, you should use it. If it is leaning away from you it effectively makes the hole larger. If it is leaning slightly towards you it will deflect the ball on a downward angle into the hole.

    - Even if you don't hit the pin dead center, it will aid you in making more putts than without. This is especially true for chipping downhill and at faster speeds.


    I found a 2007 article that provided the same info. That test was specific to chipping given the high speed the ball was travelling when it hit the pin. I would speculate that if he repeated the test with typical putting speed, the results would show a wash or slight advantage with the pin out.




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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    edited Sep 4, 2018 #102
    "Measurable, consistent and controlled speeds on a green" pretty much sums it up.



    Looked like a pretty thorough and well planned test to me. Thousands of balls rolled with robots repeatedly at 3-6-9 feet past the cup from every angle and distance...



    My personal experience backs up the tests too. I find most guys who pull the pin have just done so since they were little and are unwilling to try it.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    A lot of whether or not I Ieave it in depends on what kind of flag it is. Our course has those really heavy-duty flags that seem to kick the ball out more often than not. The old-school spindly ones (yes, they are all the same width at the bottom) seem to "help" the ball in sometimes if it's going to fast. They can "deaden" the ball and help it drop. Our flags? No flippin' way -- the balls just carom off of them.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    What's the latest data on using the pin for putting for a good player with good speed control? Is there any?



    I don't trust Pelz's old stuff at all. If I'm not mistaken, some of Pelz's stuff is shite. His "18 inches by" thing is a perfect example of that. There is no one "right" distance the ball should go for all greens, all speeds, uphill, downhill, etc.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    What's the latest data on using the pin for putting for a good player with good speed control? Is there any?



    I don't trust Pelz's old stuff at all. If I'm not mistaken, some of Pelz's stuff is shite. His "18 inches by" thing is a perfect example of that. There is no one "right" distance the ball should go for all greens, all speeds, uphill, downhill, etc.






    yep..strokes gained says so , right ? lol you should leave it inside 12 inches ..
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    edited Sep 4, 2018 #106

    Obee wrote:


    What's the latest data on using the pin for putting for a good player with good speed control? Is there any?



    I don't trust Pelz's old stuff at all. If I'm not mistaken, some of Pelz's stuff is shite. His "18 inches by" thing is a perfect example of that. There is no one "right" distance the ball should go for all greens, all speeds, uphill, downhill, etc.






    yep..strokes gained says so , right ? lol you should leave it inside 12 inches ..




    The faster and truer the greens, the more you can approach 18", I believe.



    The slower the greens are (and especially uphill), the SHORTER you should leave it past the hole. On grainy Bermuda going uphill running at 7.5, if you hit the ball hard enough to get it past 18 inches, the ball is going VERY fast when it gets to the hole, and the hole becomes quite small at that speed.
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    edited Sep 4, 2018 #107
    Obee wrote:


    A lot of whether or not I Ieave it in depends on what kind of flag it is. Our course has those really heavy-duty flags that seem to kick the ball out more often than not. The old-school spindly ones (yes, they are all the same width at the bottom) seem to "help" the ball in sometimes if it's going to fast. They can "deaden" the ball and help it drop. Our flags? No flippin' way -- the balls just carom off of them.




    I'm not trying to argue amigo as my course has the thin spindly ones,(Matter of fact I have only see those thick beastly ones at a couple courses) but the test did use multiple types of flags and tested various angles/speeds/slopes etc. I could see that argument changing the testing dynamic a bit.



    It was about as thorough a test as you could get for the time lol.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    Mcgeeno wrote:
    Obee wrote:


    A lot of whether or not I Ieave it in depends on what kind of flag it is. Our course has those really heavy-duty flags that seem to kick the ball out more often than not. The old-school spindly ones (yes, they are all the same width at the bottom) seem to "help" the ball in sometimes if it's going to fast. They can "deaden" the ball and help it drop. Our flags? No flippin' way -- the balls just carom off of them.




    I'm not trying to argue amigo as my course has the thin spindly ones,(Matter of fact I have only see those thick beastly ones at a couple courses) but the test did use multiple types of flags and tested various angles/speeds/slopes etc. I could see that argument changing the testing dynamic a bit.



    It was about as thorough a test as you could get for the time lol.




    Well heck...



    Lol
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    larrybud wrote:

    PingEye2 wrote:

    SNIPERBBB wrote:


    I’ll probably take it out anytime I bring a wedge to the green. I’m in the habit of laying my wedge across the stick so my dumba$$ doesn’t walk off without it.




    I hate when people lay clubs on the flagstick, almost never are they the first to finish the hole so you have to toss their clubs off it all day long.




    Why wouldn’t you just hand them to them rather than toss them off? Most everyone I play with will, at least a couple of times a round, pick up others clubs. Both to be polite and help assure none are left behind.




    Because I'm not their personal caddy, and I don't really want other people touching my stuff. I live by the same rules in golf as in life, don't touch another man's balls or shaft. Works well in all situations.
    You might wish to rephrase that second to last sentence. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
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  • jslane57jslane57 Members Posts: 3,929 ✭✭
    I will leave it in all the time. Unless it is just not in straight. All the stats aside, there are two reasons for me. 1) Long putts when other's are not near the hole yet, no fear of penalty. 2)I think aiming will be so much easier! Now you can't help but to aim at edges of hole and such, the pin is just going to attract your eye and you'll be aiming dead center...
  • Mikey5eMikey5e Members Posts: 838 ✭✭
    I'll probably leave the pin in most of the time myself, and consider a ball holed out if it hits the flags stick and even bounces out.😉
  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    As stated before I'll leave it in whenever possible but my biggest concern in all honesty is angering competitors and playing partners by playing the 'pin in and out' game...



    Is there any rule or etiquette in a casual/semi-casual game with just having me rip my putt up there and putt out flag in? Then I can tend it for whoever or pull the flag and hold it.



    I think with buddies this will get sorted out in a round or two. I have one main partner who is a flag in guy and a few of the older veterans pull it for everything near the green.



    I'm spitballing ideas as I'm not a guy that wants to wreck someones flow on a course and could easily adjust if needed.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    This has to be a millennial concept. What’s next ? Bumpers in the gutters for pro bowlers ?
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭


    This has to be a millennial concept. What's next ? Bumpers in the gutters for pro bowlers ?




    The old school generation could also work on being open minded and adapt to change. Change happens. Rules evolve. It happens in every sport all over the world including your bowling example (which has changed a bunch of rules recently)



    Try new things. Maybe it will help and you might find a few more chips and putts drop. "I've been chipping with the flag out since 1971!" is the typical style of answer I see with the veteran golfers without even considering a change.



    What people did in 1959 or what my grand pappy taught me how to do doesnt mean its still the best or most efficient way.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    That slope , she is slick my friend.
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭


    That slope , she is slick my friend.




    You threw out the millennial comment and painted with a pretty broad stroke yourself, I did the same.



    I doubt any millennial's are on the committee regarding any of these rule changes lol.
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,602 ✭✭
    pinhigh27 wrote:





    I found a 2007 article that provided the same info. That test was specific to chipping given the high speed the ball was travelling when it hit the pin. I would speculate that if he repeated the test with typical putting speed, the results would show a wash or slight advantage with the pin out.




    no
    The test was run at these quoted speeds-Pelz says a perfect putting speed is 17 inches past the hole. I would say Thinking Plus is correct...[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] Each test was run at 3 different speeds: With the [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]ball[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] rolling 3 feet past the covered hole, 6 feet past the covered hole, and 9 feet past the covered hole[/background]
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  • deathbymuffindeathbymuffin Members Posts: 519 ✭✭
    I intend to just leave it in at all times, but I don't mind if someone wants to pull it.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    Mcgeeno wrote:



    That slope , she is slick my friend.




    Yea



    You threw out the millennial comment and painted with a pretty broad stroke yourself, I did the same.



    I doubt any millennial's are on the committee regarding any of these rule changes lol.




    Yep. True true. My aggravation comes from one guy in particular. Mr play as fast as I can. Never putt out and magically I’m “ 2 over “ at the turn. He will want it in. I’m speaking of a specific person I play a lot with. Although his clones are all around.
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭


    Yep. True true. My aggravation comes from one guy in particular. Mr play as fast as I can. Never putt out and magically I'm " 2 over " at the turn. He will want it in. I'm speaking of a specific person I play a lot with. Although his clones are all around.




    Haha! Well I am a millennial (unfortunately) and do play really quick so maybe we play together!!!



    In my defense I did ask earlier what the etiquette or procedure should be if I'm a 'flag in' guy and I don't want to slow down play or take people out of their comfort zone.



    My comfort level would be to putt first and get the flag for whoever whats it out and then take care of the pin, but I would just suck it up and put without the flag if a guy is going to get all hot and bothered.
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,386 ✭✭
    The fact this is a hot button issue is hilarious. If you don’t want it to affect you it won’t. I wonder how many of the ones crying take free relief from roots or some pebbles so they don’t scratch or damage their clubs. It absolutely can speed up play but it isn’t a guarantee that it will. Some guys take putting a 40 footer for double seriously.

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