Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

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  • Mikey5eMikey5e Members Posts: 824 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:


    The fact this is a hot button issue is hilarious. If you don’t want it to affect you it won’t. I wonder how many of the ones crying take free relief from roots or some pebbles so they don’t scratch or damage their clubs. It absolutely can speed up play but it isn’t a guarantee that it will. Some guys take putting a 40 footer for double seriously.
    Those that whine the most are probably nine-hole League golfers who drink a six-pack of beer and take 3 hours to finish the round.
  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    Mikey5e wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:


    The fact this is a hot button issue is hilarious. If you don't want it to affect you it won't. I wonder how many of the ones crying take free relief from roots or some pebbles so they don't scratch or damage their clubs. It absolutely can speed up play but it isn't a guarantee that it will. Some guys take putting a 40 footer for double seriously.
    Those that whine the most are probably nine-hole League golfers who drink a six-pack of beer and take 3 hours to finish the round.




    That is my nightmare lol.



    "Whats the hurry?"



    Well for one, I'm running out of daylight now that we are entering fall buddy! We have a group that plays on our Mens Night and they don't realize that nobody behind them can finish their round before dark in the next week or so where I live.
  • PingEye2PingEye2 Members Posts: 829 ✭✭
    I think this will be fascinating to watch on the PGA Tour where one putt a tournament could mean millions over the course of a season.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,740 ✭✭
    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,381 ✭✭
    PingEye2 wrote:
    I think this will be fascinating to watch on the PGA Tour where one putt a tournament could mean millions over the course of a season.




    The pga tour will probably have a local rule for every event that keeps things status quo.
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,381 ✭✭
    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?






    I don’t recall anyone whining to change it I think the USGA looked at things to simplify the rules and potentially speed up play. If I was gonna cry about a rule change it would be to change all white stakes to red.
  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 3,894 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    PingEye2 wrote:
    I think this will be fascinating to watch on the PGA Tour where one putt a tournament could mean millions over the course of a season.




    The pga tour will probably have a local rule for every event that keeps things status quo.




    We may know soon whether that will be an approved Local Rule.
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • ibradleyibradley Members Posts: 361 ✭✭
    It is going to be very interesting how this all unfolds. The physics indicate that putting with the pin in is an advantage. A few questions:



    1. Are we going to see flag manufacturers designing "more receptive pins"?

    2. Will the PGA Tour institute a local rule requiring pins to be taken out? I would bet on it

    3. Will golf clubs institute their own local rule?

    4. Will there be revised golf etiquette suggestions? The pin to be removed when putting inside 20 feet? Pin removed when convenient?
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,584 ✭✭

    BiggErn wrote:

    PingEye2 wrote:
    I think this will be fascinating to watch on the PGA Tour where one putt a tournament could mean millions over the course of a season.




    The pga tour will probably have a local rule for every event that keeps things status quo.




    We may know soon whether that will be an approved Local Rule.
    Considering the usga has supposedly been in contact with the tours on the changes I'm guessing that if the pros wish to go with the old rule it will be an approved local rule.
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  • dsmildsmil Members Posts: 570 ✭✭
    I'd prefer to leave it in, but 90% of the people I'm paired with won't know about the rule change, so I won't complain if they pull it. I don't really think it will affect pace of play because now there will be questions on every hole regarding whether to leave the pin in or not.
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  • Mikey5eMikey5e Members Posts: 824 ✭✭


    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?
    whining about the change.

    Because it doesn't force them to change a single aspect of their game.
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,614 ✭✭


    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?




    You, the one who is freaking out and saying all this stuff about a rule that really won't change pace of play or much about your rounds. You guys are losing your minds like "omg what do I do in tournaments."



    You let the guy who wants flag in go first. No big deal.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • halliedoghalliedog Members Posts: 2,378 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    A lot of whether or not I Ieave it in depends on what kind of flag it is. Our course has those really heavy-duty flags that seem to kick the ball out more often than not. The old-school spindly ones (yes, they are all the same width at the bottom) seem to "help" the ball in sometimes if it's going to fast. They can "deaden" the ball and help it drop. Our flags? No flippin' way -- the balls just carom off of them.




    Also, depends on what type of ball you're playing. I can see myself wanting it in almost every chip/putt, unless they have the "heavy duty" flags AND I happen to be playing a Top-Flite Magna - no way that ball can fit in the hole!
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  • pearsonifiedpearsonified Extreme enthusiast Members Posts: 1,800 ✭✭
    I don't have a ton of data yet, but based on my testing, I'll be leaving the flag in MOST OF THE TIME.



    I'm not too worried about the size of the hole—I can worry about that when I actually start hitting the **** thing from outside 4 feet.



    There's an angle here that doesn't get enough attention:



    I can flat out aim better—and sense the target better at address—when there is another axis coming up out of the hole.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,740 ✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2018 #136
    pinhigh27 wrote:



    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?




    You, the one who is freaking out and saying all this stuff about a rule that really won't change pace of play or much about your rounds. You guys are losing your minds like "omg what do I do in tournaments."



    You let the guy who wants flag in go first. No big deal.




    And you don’t see the issue with that ?? He’s in tight. You going to let him walk all over the other 3 players lines to putt ?
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭


    And you don't see the issue with that ?? He's in tight. You going to let him walk all over the other 3 players lines to putt ?




    On a semi side note, I get the etiquette with the stepping on a guys line part of golf...



    But I've literally never missed a putt because of a spike mark or footprint. I've pulled/pushed/dorked/donked my way around a green, but by the time I am ready to putt I assume there has been what? 400 footprints around the hole in the half day before I got there?



    I've just never personally seen it but maybe some big guys leave a heavy imprint?
  • PingEye2PingEye2 Members Posts: 829 ✭✭
    Mcgeeno wrote:


    And you don't see the issue with that ?? He's in tight. You going to let him walk all over the other 3 players lines to putt ?




    On a semi side note, I get the etiquette with the stepping on a guys line part of golf...



    But I've literally never missed a putt because of a spike mark or footprint. I've pulled/pushed/dorked/donked my way around a green, but by the time I am ready to putt I assume there has been what? 400 footprints around the hole in the half day before I got there?



    I've just never personally seen it but maybe some big guys leave a heavy imprint?




    The green will recover from a footprint over a few minutes, but not a few seconds.
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,381 ✭✭
    If a guy is taking his sweet time to putt a 40 footer for double and I’m ready to putt my 10 footer then I’m rolling it whether the pin is in or out. It holds especially true if we’re being pushed. I can’t stand having to rush my shots because someone else is holding everyone up.
  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    PingEye2 wrote:


    The green will recover from a footprint over a few minutes, but not a few seconds.




    Makes sense.



    Someone should tell Tyrell Hatton that after every missed putt spazz he has.
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,614 ✭✭

    pinhigh27 wrote:



    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?




    You, the one who is freaking out and saying all this stuff about a rule that really won't change pace of play or much about your rounds. You guys are losing your minds like "omg what do I do in tournaments."



    You let the guy who wants flag in go first. No big deal.




    And you don't see the issue with that ?? He's in tight. You going to let him walk all over the other 3 players lines to putt ?




    ok so is it that inconvenient to put the flag back in for them? You're literally going to have to do it anyway, instead of doing it after everyone is done you would now do it after 3 people are done. It's no different.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,740 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #142
    pinhigh27 wrote:


    pinhigh27 wrote:



    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?




    You, the one who is freaking out and saying all this stuff about a rule that really won't change pace of play or much about your rounds. You guys are losing your minds like "omg what do I do in tournaments."



    You let the guy who wants flag in go first. No big deal.




    And you don't see the issue with that ?? He's in tight. You going to let him walk all over the other 3 players lines to putt ?




    ok so is it that inconvenient to put the flag back in for them? You're literally going to have to do it anyway, instead of doing it after everyone is done you would now do it after 3 people are done. It's no different.




    Pretty obvious we are both obtuse in different directions. You’re the guy in my group I’m refering to. This argument will have to happen in real life , and that’s why I brought it up. I don’t mean that as a slight. I just mean that it will be a constant battle because I believe the pin should be out. And you believe it should be left in for All. I’m guessing you’d prefer the rule be “ the stick shall remain in at all times “ to just “ simplify “ it for you ? I get that. But think of it this way. It was simplified towards my opinion. Now it’s in the middle to try to please All. Wel guess what. You cannot please everyone. The middle means nobody is happy.



    The scenario above you lay out could work just like that. Or you could be 2nd to putt of 4. The other two want it back out. So in and out it goes. No way that’s fasster.
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  • I_HATE_SNOWI_HATE_SNOW Members Posts: 3,304 ✭✭
    We've been leaving the flag in for the last month, love it! Haven't had any putts miss due to the flag and 3 footers seem easier with something to aim at. Hope they put a ball catcher ring at the bottom of the flag to make it easier to get the balls out of the hole.
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,614 ✭✭

    pinhigh27 wrote:


    pinhigh27 wrote:



    mikey 5 eyes and Bigern..... which group of whiners are we talking about ? The ones whining about the change ? or the ones who whined to get it changed ?




    You, the one who is freaking out and saying all this stuff about a rule that really won't change pace of play or much about your rounds. You guys are losing your minds like "omg what do I do in tournaments."



    You let the guy who wants flag in go first. No big deal.




    And you don't see the issue with that ?? He's in tight. You going to let him walk all over the other 3 players lines to putt ?




    ok so is it that inconvenient to put the flag back in for them? You're literally going to have to do it anyway, instead of doing it after everyone is done you would now do it after 3 people are done. It's no different.




    Pretty obvious we are both obtuse in different directions. You’re the guy in my group I’m refering to. This argument will have to happen in real life , and that’s why I brought it up. I don’t mean that as a slight. I just mean that it will be a constant battle because I believe the pin should be out. And you believe it should be left in for All. I’m guessing you’d prefer the rule be “ the stick shall remain in at all times “ to just “ simplify “ it for you ? I get that. But think of it this way. It was simplified towards my opinion. Now it’s in the middle to try to please All. Wel guess what. You cannot please everyone. The middle means nobody is happy.



    The scenario above you lay out could work just like that. Or you could be 2nd to putt of 4. The other two want it back out. So in and out it goes. No way that’s fasster.




    No I believe it's a choice that the rules will now allow. And I think it's way more productive to just move on instead of fretting about it when in reality it adds 5 seconds at most. Big deal.



    I think it's in peoples best interest to leave it in. That doesn't mean they have, big distinction.



    Why does this make you so upset? Like I said it's extremely minor. Worry more about your own golf.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,740 ✭✭
    Lol. I’m not upset. And I do worry aboot my own play on the course. This is a forum for discussion. So I discuss. And in my opinion legalizing putt backstops isn’t good for the game.
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  • pearsonifiedpearsonified Extreme enthusiast Members Posts: 1,800 ✭✭
    And in my opinion legalizing putt backstops isn’t good for the game.


    I've been thinking about this a lot, and it's all about perspective.



    Let's rewind the clock 100 years. Flagsticks have just now become a thing.



    I find it odd that anyone ever thought a MANDATE was necessary that the flag should be taken out whenever a player's ball is on the green.



    At St. Andrews, for example, there are tons of hole locations where you can be 40 feet away and have absolutely zero view of the cup. At one time, this was an easy problem to solve, as you simply have your caddy tend the pin.



    But in the real world, we don't have caddies. And we can't see the **** hole if we're forever away on the green (especially if the cup is obscured by humps and bumps).



    In other words, we've grown accustomed to "the way things have been," but this status quo grew out of some very idiosyncratic details. The issue has NEVER been one of backstopping, but that is a convenient scapegoat now.



    If we're going to have flagsticks at all, I see absolutely no reason to apply quirky rules to them. It's in the **** hole, and that's where it should stay unless the player wishes to have it removed for a particular shot.



    Generally speaking, I'm in favor of fewer rules—not more—and this rule change regarding the flagstick REDUCES some of the quirk and idiosyncrasy here.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,740 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #147
    perspective is an amazing thing... all i can do is shrug IDFK? when reading that relaxing this rule to a judgement call somehow reduces quirk. Surely this rule came from someone winning a large match by banging a putt in off the pole.. which seems like a pretty good reason to me ...





    Look it is what it is at this point..BUT most of the pro pinners claim the Pelz theories to be correct .. This surely means they expect to receive some help from the pin from time to time ..yes? Why is it ok that we now put training wheels on putting ? if it isnt training wheels then what why all the talk about pelz claiming it helps the ball go in ?



    I see this and most other new rules as part if the continued cash grab of the " lets make the game easier to attract more players" which only purpose is to make the top oems, owners, etc in the game wealthier . The question now is how much of the game will be sold off like this in my lifetime ?



    Then i have this thought .... In other threads people are sooo against bifurcation of the rules from pro to am.....why i dont know.... Yet they will be all for this...and I gaurantee the pga tour enacts a local rule to not allow the pin in for putting unless attended. why? its a terrible optic... constant banging of the ball against the pin . half players do one thing another the opposite ... again ..my opinion ....and obviously from a different perspective..
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,256 ✭✭
    http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html



    There's a little discussion of the history of rules regarding flagsticks. I believe originally there was just a hole, and the player had to get his ball into the hole. Flagsticks came later, as a way of indicating the location of the hole, yet you still had you get your ball into the hole. The flagstick was in the way. Early rules required the flagstick to be removed when the player was within 20 yards, since there wasn't a specific definition of putting green. Again, the flagstick is viewed as something outside of the game, simply a marker. That's why the rules have continued to require the flagstick to be removed when playing from the putting green. Its a logical extension of the game, your job is to hole your ball, and the flagstick is something outside of that goal, and shouldn't be allowed to interfere when its reasonably possible to remove its potential influence. Times do change, the rules will change, and we're now free to use the flagstick's interference if we can.
  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #149
    BH; You are arguing different sides of the same coin amigo.



    As far as "putting training wheels on putting" goes, a few pages back the argument was that it doesnt help because Pros dont do it? I'm assuming this is conceding it might help people make more putts?



    I get that its a big change and it goes against how things have been for 100+ years.



    I think this is the real crux with golfers, especially solid players and veterans. Change is scary. Guys on the fence should just drop 10 balls on a green and roll some putts at a hole with the flag in. (A real flag on their home course, not a stubby putting green flag) Or even just look at a 6 foot breaker with a vertical line like the flag to help read the putt easier. I did this last night for practice just to have some fun and even the lipped putts kind of use the flag as a little rebound mechanism and kiss them in the hole more often than not. Sure if you ram a putt 4 feet past the hole the lip wasnt going to help and the flag probably won't keep that ball in the hole. You hit a crappy putt.



    I really don't care about all the noise and hand wringing as long as its a rule I can use to help lower my scores. The stats show it will :::usually::: help. My personal experience says its a much better choice. Professionals can do whatever they want, they don't sign my scorecard or compete against me in the club championship lol.
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,614 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #150
    I guess we should get rid of marking balls too because not being stymied makes the game easier. I'm sure that was a lot of fun.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,740 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #151
    Mcgeeno wrote:


    BH; You are arguing different sides of the same coin amigo.



    As far as "putting training wheels on putting" goes, a few pages back the argument was that it doesnt help because Pros dont do it? I'm assuming this is conceding it might help people make more putts?



    I get that its a big change and it goes against how things have been for 100+ years.



    I think this is the real crux with golfers, especially solid players and veterans. Change is scary. Guys on the fence should just drop 10 balls on a green and roll some putts at a hole with the flag in. (A real flag on their home course, not a stubby putting green flag) Or even just look at a 6 foot breaker with a vertical line like the flag to help read the putt easier. I did this last night for practice just to have some fun and even the lipped putts kind of use the flag as a little rebound mechanism and kiss them in the hole more often than not. Sure if you ram a putt 4 feet past the hole the lip wasnt going to help and the flag probably won't keep that ball in the hole. You hit a crappy putt.



    I really don't care about all the noise and hand wringing as long as its a rule I can use to help lower my scores. The stats show it will :::usually::: help. My personal experience says its a much better choice. Professionals can do whatever they want, they don't sign my scorecard or compete against me in the club championship lol.




    Nope. I’m showing that some are arguing both sides of that coin. I still belive it hurts more than helps for me so I’ll have it out. But my reasoning is mental. I mentally am trained to even remove the pins on a practice green. Therefore brain doesn’t like to see that. On the flip some who struggle with speed control will certainly find this a legal cheat. They claim pace of play and yet we know full well it’s to backstop putts. I was simply pointing this double talk out. Change for a purpose that makes sense is good.change for the sake of change is not and change for a veiled reason is worse.



    Sorry man. I’m only 38 although you may have guessed 88. Lol. But that last paragraph is a very big symptom of what’s wrong in general in our living space. “ make it easier “. I’ll keep my rant to myself for now and ask why ? Why does it have to be easier. Can nothing be left as pure as you found it anymore ? Making this game easier is a very slippery slope. In my opinion of course and with all due respect. 🙂
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