Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    pinhigh27 wrote:


    I guess we should get rid of marking balls too because not being stymied makes the game easier. I'm sure that was a lot of fun.




    Now you and I both know that tired paper tiger should be out to pasture. We ca what if in that vein to the point that badgers are having their testicles removed to make balls. But that’s still going to be besides the point.
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Haven’t and won’t. I also don’t roll the ball , I count stroke and distance. And I hit from a divot if I land in one.



    The governing bodies have taken the opportunity to make the flag in ok. I’ll get used to it. But I wonder which “ easier “ is next. ?
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #156
    What I figured.



    Personally I would LOVE it if they made divots GUR until fully healed. Thats a rule I want changed!



    That might get your head spinning! I think we've gone around on that one before hahaha.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    Look. I mean no harm to anyone I’ve argued with here. I do love a debate. And in time I’ll stop caring like the rest. But I do hate change for the most part. But more so change that levels the field. Parity seems to be the theme of society now. Work or skill should equal results. Not dumbed down rules or bars to make everyone “better “.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,261 ✭✭

    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Haven't and won't. I also don't roll the ball , I count stroke and distance. And I hit from a divot if I land in one.



    The governing bodies have taken the opportunity to make the flag in ok. I'll get used to it. But I wonder which " easier " is next. ?


    Golf has been getting "soft" for decades. Read Richard Tufts' article from 1960 discussing the changes to the rules in his time:

    http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/1960s/1960/601112.pdf
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #159
    davep043 wrote:


    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Haven't and won't. I also don't roll the ball , I count stroke and distance. And I hit from a divot if I land in one.



    The governing bodies have taken the opportunity to make the flag in ok. I'll get used to it. But I wonder which " easier " is next. ?


    Golf has been getting "soft" for decades. Read Richard Tufts' article from 1960 discussing the changes to the rules in his time:

    http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/1960s/1960/601112.pdf




    Don’t disagree at all. It has. And I was born an old soul. Bad combo.



    But can’t a line be drawn ? Supposedly it has been With equipment. Now they’ve started on the rules front. Of course my argument includes the idea that this is only the top of the iceberg. I’m not saying putting with the pin in is the devil on its own. But the frog is in the pot and the temp is going up a degree every day or two.



    An example that popped to mind is. What if a runner is training for the 100m finals and his eyes are on the world record. He wants to dominate the game he loves as he has grown up training for it. Then 6 months before whatever meet the governing bodies decide to allow wind aided times . The day of the finals he has a 4 meter per sec wind at his back. And he shatters the record by nearly a half second. How does he feel ?



    If is me. It’s not good. I see the same thing happening if they continue to defang the rules.
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  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    Mcgeeno wrote:
    Have you tried putting with the flag in? It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking? Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps" Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?
    Haven’t and won’t. I also don’t roll the ball , I count stroke and distance. And I hit from a divot if I land in one. The governing bodies have taken the opportunity to make the flag in ok. I’ll get used to it. But I wonder which “ easier “ is next. ?




    Just dumbing down, like big putter grips, fat putter grips, long putters (usually still anchored).



    The other dumb one is this play 4 from the fairway rather than 3 off the Tee for lost ball.
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭


    Look. I mean no harm to anyone I've argued with here. I do love a debate. And in time I'll stop caring like the rest. But I do hate change for the most part. But more so change that levels the field. Parity seems to be the theme of society now. Work or skill should equal results. Not dumbed down rules or bars to make everyone "better ".




    Don't worry about it from my end amigo you have done nothing wrong.
  • moko jumbymoko jumby Members Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #162
    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?



    Edit: u have to decide in or out before the putt and person tending can’t change your/their mind after you hit it.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,261 ✭✭
    moko jumby wrote:


    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?


    It has never been legal, and will not be legal under the new rules.
  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    moko jumby wrote:
    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?


    I asked this question earlier. The rule says unattended pin but its not clear when you can ask for it to be tended. We don't know.

    davep043 wrote:
    moko jumby wrote:
    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?
    It has never been legal, and will not be legal under the new rules.




    We don't know that, do we?
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,261 ✭✭
    Londoner wrote:

    moko jumby wrote:
    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?


    I asked this question earlier. The rule says unattended pin but its not clear when you can ask for it to be tended. We don't know.


    davep043 wrote:
    moko jumby wrote:
    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?
    It has never been legal, and will not be legal under the new rules.




    We don't know that, do we?


    Yes. The New Rules are available on the USGA website, and are very clear.
  • moko jumbymoko jumby Members Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #166
    davep043 wrote:

    moko jumby wrote:


    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?


    It has never been legal, and will not be legal under the new rules.




    i read it now nevermind
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,261 ✭✭
    moko jumby wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    moko jumby wrote:


    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?


    It has never been legal, and will not be legal under the new rules.




    source on it being illegal starting '19?


    http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Rules of Golf for 2019 (Final).pdf

    Rule 13.2.a(3)
  • sticknerstickner Members Posts: 378 ✭✭

    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Haven't and won't. I also don't roll the ball , I count stroke and distance. And I hit from a divot if I land in one.



    The governing bodies have taken the opportunity to make the flag in ok. I'll get used to it. But I wonder which " easier " is next. ?




    Are you going to go back to Hickory shafts? Steel shafts made the game "easier" and at one point were against the rules.



    https://golfhistorytoday.com/1926-usga-legalizes-steel-shaft/
  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #169
    davep043 wrote:
    moko jumby wrote:
    davep043 wrote:
    moko jumby wrote:
    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?
    It has never been legal, and will not be legal under the new rules.
    source on it being illegal starting '19?
    http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Rules of Golf for 2019 (Final).pdf Rule 13.2.a(3)




    Link is 404 for me?



    Ok found it.

    Where does it say I cant ask you to leave it once my 30 footer is on the way?
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,261 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #170
    Londoner wrote:


    Link is 404 for me?


    Try this one, then click the link for New Rules of Golf for 2019. I imagine the same thing is available through the R&A website, but I haven't looked for it there.

    http://www.usga.org/...-new-rules.html

    OK, I just did, its on a link near the bottom of this page:

    https://www.rules.golf/
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,261 ✭✭
    Londoner wrote:

    davep043 wrote:
    moko jumby wrote:
    davep043 wrote:
    moko jumby wrote:
    sorry if this has already been addressed but won't the ideal strategy be to always have someone tend it and then decide mid-putt whether leaving it in or pulling it will benefit the putt? is it legal to do this? does the tender have to make the decision on his own, or can the putter make the call out mid-putt?
    It has never been legal, and will not be legal under the new rules.
    source on it being illegal starting '19?
    http://www.usga.org/...for 2019 (Final).pdf Rule 13.2.a(3)




    Link is 404 for me?



    Ok found it.

    Where does it say I cant ask you to leave it once my 30 footer is on the way?


    13.2.a discusses what happens when the player chooses to leave the flag in. (3) says that if the player (or caddie or partner) removes the flagstick once the ball is in motion to affect where the ball might come to rest (including to avoid having the ball hit the flagstick in the hole), the player gets the "general penalty". You have to choose whether to leave the flagstick in, or whether to have it removed by someone attending it.

    13.2.b talks about what happens once you decide to have it removed. If the person attending deliberately leaves the flagstick in, and the ball hits the flagstick, the player is penalized.

    The rule is clear, you have to decide your course of action before you make a stroke.
  • Mikey5eMikey5e Members Posts: 838 ✭✭
    I think I am going to putt directly at the hole with a little more power to take the break out of it knowing the ball will hit the flagstick and drop in. There's always interesting ways to take advantage of the situation which will result in lowering my handicap a couple of Strokes.
  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #173
    davep043



    Cheers. I couldnt drill down. The USPGA site does not like UK! image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />



    Couldn't quote. The "too many quotes" box was driving me mad, so I gave up.
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  • Shrinkwr4pShrinkwr4p Members Posts: 278 ✭✭
    ibradley wrote:


    It is going to be very interesting how this all unfolds. The physics indicate that putting with the pin in is an advantage. A few questions:



    1. Are we going to see flag manufacturers designing "more receptive pins"?

    2. Will the PGA Tour institute a local rule requiring pins to be taken out? I would bet on it

    3. Will golf clubs institute their own local rule?

    4. Will there be revised golf etiquette suggestions? The pin to be removed when putting inside 20 feet? Pin removed when convenient?




    1.Probably

    2. No

    3. No

    4. No
  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    Shrinkwr4p wrote:
    ibradley wrote:
    It is going to be very interesting how this all unfolds. The physics indicate that putting with the pin in is an advantage. A few questions: 1. Are we going to see flag manufacturers designing "more receptive pins"? 2. Will the PGA Tour institute a local rule requiring pins to be taken out? I would bet on it 3. Will golf clubs institute their own local rule? 4. Will there be revised golf etiquette suggestions? The pin to be removed when putting inside 20 feet? Pin removed when convenient?
    1.Probably 2. No 3. No 4. No




    No need to ramble on! image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,777 ✭✭
    stickner wrote:


    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Haven't and won't. I also don't roll the ball , I count stroke and distance. And I hit from a divot if I land in one.



    The governing bodies have taken the opportunity to make the flag in ok. I'll get used to it. But I wonder which " easier " is next. ?




    Are you going to go back to Hickory shafts? Steel shafts made the game "easier" and at one point were against the rules.



    https://golfhistorytoday.com/1926-usga-legalizes-steel-shaft/




    Already slain that paper tiger. He’s dead and buried. We’re talking about now.
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  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,031 ✭✭
    edited Sep 8, 2018 #177
    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Can you provide any science and testing beyond Peltz's work?



    I have never seen anything else and Peltz was running tests with very different parameters looking at speeds that go well beyond the hole.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,830 ✭✭
    Mikey5e wrote:


    I think I am going to putt directly at the hole with a little more power to take the break out of it knowing the ball will hit the flagstick and drop in. There's always interesting ways to take advantage of the situation which will result in lowering my handicap a couple of Strokes.




    Of course when you don't hit that same putt into the center of the flagstick and it strikes a side of the flagstick and comes out you'll never know whether that same putt would've hit slightly to the side of the back of the hole and dropped down,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />

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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2018 #179
    2bGood wrote:

    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Can you provide any science and testing beyond Peltz's work?



    I have never seen anything else and Peltz was run tests with very different parameters looking at speeds that go well beyond the hole.




    I personally have no testing other than myself and Pelz work.



    Flag would help even more on softer putts though
  • 300_yard_drives300_yard_drives Jr. Boomers Posts: 1,201 ✭✭


    Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.





    Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you. If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But there’s a chance of hitting it slightly off center and it staying in.



    Now add a flagstick there. It has almost zero shot at going in. If it hits the pin its coming out. Maybe won’t go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.



    I’m telling you that no good player who’s learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in. Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in. Because most arent going to do it for you.
    i would consider myself a good player and I make more putts with the pin in outside 15ft. I'm leaving it in next year. I am in minority but don't be absolute in your statements.
  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,988 ✭✭


    ]i would consider myself a good player and I make more putts with the pin in outside 15ft. I'm leaving it in next year. I am in minority but don't be absolute in your statements.




    What are you thinking with regards to short putts?



    I'm still torn. I have actually fiddled with it all week while practicing on course. Pin in, pin out. Hard, soft and in between.



    I like the vertical line from the pin on breaking putts and it seems to kick more balls in the hole. If I was ramming a putt 4-5 feet passed the hole, either way it wasnt dropping.



    I am undecided on the short putts but leaning towards being a 'pin in trailblazer' hahaha.

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