Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

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  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,010 ✭✭
    Mcgeeno wrote:

    2bGood wrote:

    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Can you provide any science and testing beyond Peltz's work?



    I have never seen anything else and Peltz was run tests with very different parameters looking at speeds that go well beyond the hole.




    I personally have no testing other than myself and Pelz work.



    Flag would help even more on softer putts though




    My take away from Pelz was that it was only relevant if you were not confident in the weight of your chips. I can't see running a 6' putt 3',6' or 9' past the hole so I am not sure how relevant it is for short putts.



    You refer to 'Science'. Not starting an argument but would just love to see it as I have read allot of the scientific work on golf. I have a Physics Degree and frankly modelling the mathematics to compare pin in and pin out is way beyond what my skill set ever was, but I would be able to understand a scientific study or scholarly article and would love to read what you are referring to.



    I am sure someone is working on specific putting test right now give the internet in the golf world.
  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,984 ✭✭
    Totally fair when I typed “science” I knew it was an incorrect choice but I didnt change the wording.



    Data, stats, Pelz Analysis, personal experience etc. Would have been a wiser choice.



  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,755 ✭✭
    Sounds like the whole pin in/out option could actually slow the game down. Half the guys in the foursome will want it in; half will want it out.
  • sticknerstickner Members Posts: 378 ✭✭
    2bGood wrote:

    Mcgeeno wrote:

    2bGood wrote:

    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Can you provide any science and testing beyond Peltz's work?



    I have never seen anything else and Peltz was run tests with very different parameters looking at speeds that go well beyond the hole.




    I personally have no testing other than myself and Pelz work.



    Flag would help even more on softer putts though




    My take away from Pelz was that it was only relevant if you were not confident in the weight of your chips. I can't see running a 6' putt 3',6' or 9' past the hole so I am not sure how relevant it is for short putts.



    You refer to 'Science'. Not starting an argument but would just love to see it as I have read allot of the scientific work on golf. I have a Physics Degree and frankly modelling the mathematics to compare pin in and pin out is way beyond what my skill set ever was, but I would be able to understand a scientific study or scholarly article and would love to read what you are referring to.



    I am sure someone is working on specific putting test right now give the internet in the golf world.




    I have never trusted much of the work that Pelz did. At best it was pseudo-science. I believe he shaped his "tests" to adhere to the pre-conceived bias he already had.
  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    stickner wrote:

    2bGood wrote:

    Mcgeeno wrote:

    2bGood wrote:

    Mcgeeno wrote:


    Have you tried putting with the flag in?



    It seems like a stubborn old school way of thinking?



    Like I said in here a few pages ago most of what I hear from people resisting the change is stuff like "I've done it this way forever and I don't think it helps"



    Well science and testing proves you are wrong. Give it a shot and it might drop a couple strokes who knows?




    Can you provide any science and testing beyond Peltz's work?



    I have never seen anything else and Peltz was run tests with very different parameters looking at speeds that go well beyond the hole.




    I personally have no testing other than myself and Pelz work.



    Flag would help even more on softer putts though




    My take away from Pelz was that it was only relevant if you were not confident in the weight of your chips. I can't see running a 6' putt 3',6' or 9' past the hole so I am not sure how relevant it is for short putts.



    You refer to 'Science'. Not starting an argument but would just love to see it as I have read allot of the scientific work on golf. I have a Physics Degree and frankly modelling the mathematics to compare pin in and pin out is way beyond what my skill set ever was, but I would be able to understand a scientific study or scholarly article and would love to read what you are referring to.



    I am sure someone is working on specific putting test right now give the internet in the golf world.




    I have never trusted much of the work that Pelz did. At best it was pseudo-science. I believe he shaped his "tests" to adhere to the pre-conceived bias he already had.




    Why would he?
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  • 300_yard_drives300_yard_drives Jr. Boomers Posts: 1,197 ✭✭
    Mcgeeno wrote:



    ]i would consider myself a good player and I make more putts with the pin in outside 15ft. I'm leaving it in next year. I am in minority but don't be absolute in your statements.




    What are you thinking with regards to short putts?



    I'm still torn. I have actually fiddled with it all week while practicing on course. Pin in, pin out. Hard, soft and in between.



    I like the vertical line from the pin on breaking putts and it seems to kick more balls in the hole. If I was ramming a putt 4-5 feet passed the hole, either way it wasnt dropping.



    I am undecided on the short putts but leaning towards being a 'pin in trailblazer' hahaha.


    I may leave it in on shorter putts but it also depends on the type of pin used at the course and the speed of the greens. Pin helps with poor speed control but inside 15ft my speed should be dead on within inches.
  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,010 ✭✭
    edited Sep 8, 2018 #188
    Londoner wrote:

    stickner wrote:


    I have never trusted much of the work that Pelz did. At best it was pseudo-science. I believe he shaped his "tests" to adhere to the pre-conceived bias he already had.




    Why would he?




    Wether he did have a bias or not, he did not use modern scientific methodology but his test and observations seem to give the best(only) data on the subject no matter how flawed it is.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • PingEye2PingEye2 Members Posts: 828 ✭✭
    edited Sep 8, 2018 #189
    I spoke with renowned putting guru John Graham, who told me In was a definite advantage. He also believes it such an advantage that the tour will adopt a local rule that eliminates the option of leaving it in. We shall see.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Swisstrader98Swisstrader98 Members Posts: 3,531 ✭✭
    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!
  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,355 ✭✭


    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!




    If properly flogged, the person requesting the pin back in will not do it again
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  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,010 ✭✭


    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!




    I know a huge swing and miss on this one.
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,773 ✭✭
    I have to wonder if most, especially casual groups, will simply agree to leave it in all the time or tend/take it out as we do today and be done with it.



    Or maybe agree to have the guys who want it in to putt first and then take it out for the rest.



    Now for the more serious players,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I guess the closest player takes it out, tends it or leaves the flag in for the other 3. Often 1 or 2 of the guys will leave themselves a tap in and the closest guy will simply handle the pin while those guys tap in.



    When it's his turn, someone else will do the duty. I guess time will tell. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />

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  • I_HATE_SNOWI_HATE_SNOW Members Posts: 3,298 ✭✭
    SNIPERBBB wrote:



    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!




    If properly flogged, the person requesting the pin back in will not do it again
    Why would you ever pull it?
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭

    SNIPERBBB wrote:



    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!




    If properly flogged, the person requesting the pin back in will not do it again
    Why would you ever pull it?




    cause pushing it doesnt get it out of the hole!
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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,984 ✭✭
    Like I said before, I'm a 'pin in' guy and will hopefully be able to convince my playing partners most days. I've already started.



    If I'm playing with others who want it pulled I'd rather follow suit and keep pace going and not rock the boat.



    I do the same with tee boxes. I prefer playing tips or one up from tips, but if the guys in my group are choppers who play up a box or two its no worry for me. I'll hit more irons and driving irons off the tees.
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,773 ✭✭


    SNIPERBBB wrote:



    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!




    If properly flogged, the person requesting the pin back in will not do it again
    Why would you ever pull it?




    cause pushing it doesnt get it out of the hole!




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  • pearsonifiedpearsonified Extreme enthusiast Members Posts: 1,800 ✭✭
    Sounds like the whole pin in/out option could actually slow the game down. Half the guys in the foursome will want it in; half will want it out.


    This one makes me chuckle. Here's the deal:



    You've got 4 guys on the green. The guy who is closest should always be in charge of the flagstick anyway.



    Three guys are gonna putt before he gets to putt. He can tend/remove/replace the pin as necessary for those guys and then set it up however he likes for his own putt.



    It takes no significant time to do this.



    Another point I'd like to make is identifying the precise type of putt where the pin provides a significant advantage—where you roll it just inside the left or right lip.



    When the ball starts to dip into the cup—you know, just before the dreaded horseshoe miss—the pin pinches it a little bit and often keeps the ball in the hole rather than letting it ring out.



    Of course, it's not all benefit with no cost. Any putts hit too strong but right at the center are likely to hit the pin and refuse to drop, but those same putts might have rammed into the back of the hole and plopped in if the pin were not present.



    Finally, I think it's massively hyperbolic to say this rule change "makes the game easier." The reality is this:
    • Simpler for singles trying to post a handicapped round
    • Simpler for dgaf types and people with mobility issues who seek to reduce movement
    • Gives the player one more strategic option around the greens


    I don't have any expectations about improved pace of play or anything along those lines. Dudes have a knack for turning 3 hour loops into 4:15 slogs, and the only way that's ever gonna change is if they stop playing "recreational golf."



    Personally, I appreciate that I can be 60 feet away and not have to worry about walking all the way over to deal with the pin before hitting my approach putt. I'm a stickler about playing by the rules—it's the only way to have a consistent baseline by which to measure improvement—and this change makes it easier to do that without "going through motions" for niggling compliance.
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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,839 ClubWRX


    SNIPERBBB wrote:



    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!




    If properly flogged, the person requesting the pin back in will not do it again
    Why would you ever pull it?




    cause pushing it doesnt get it out of the hole!




    I am so biting my tongue!
  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,010 ✭✭
    From what I find at golf clubs, birds of a feather flock together. Groups of gofers form and 'norms' for those group develop. I can see that happing around pin in and pin out as-well.
  • Mikey5eMikey5e Members Posts: 791 ✭✭
    nsxguy wrote:


    I have to wonder if most, especially casual groups, will simply agree to leave it in all the time or tend/take it out as we do today and be done with it.



    Or maybe agree to have the guys who want it in to putt first and then take it out for the rest.



    Now for the more serious players,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I guess the closest player takes it out, tends it or leaves the flag in for the other 3. Often 1 or 2 of the guys will leave themselves a tap in and the closest guy will simply handle the pin while those guys tap in.



    When it's his turn, someone else will do the duty. I guess time will tell. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />
    I don't really care what other people do as long as they don't slow down play. I think most people will welcome the change, it's only the select few, like in these forums, that are afraid of change.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    Hawkeye77 wrote:



    SNIPERBBB wrote:



    Love how the USGA thought this was a good idea because it would speed play. I can just see in my group first guy takes out flag (or caddy)c next guy says leave it in, 3rd golfer thinks about length of his putt and whether in or out is a good thing then initially says leave it in then changes his mind, then fourth guy says take it out.



    Rinse, lather, repeat for another 17 holes. Great job USGA!




    If properly flogged, the person requesting the pin back in will not do it again
    Why would you ever pull it?




    cause pushing it doesnt get it out of the hole!




    I am so biting my tongue!




    I’m not surprised that it took a sense of humor on a higher plane to get that. The irony of the pullers vs the pushers is lost on most. Well done sir !
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  • larrybudlarrybud Members Posts: 11,232 ✭✭
    SNIPERBBB wrote:


    This one makes me chuckle. Here's the deal:



    You've got 4 guys on the green. The guy who is closest should always be in charge of the flagstick anyway.



    Three guys are gonna putt before he gets to putt. He can tend/remove/replace the pin as necessary for those guys and then set it up however he likes for his own putt.



    It takes no significant time to do this.

    ....

    Personally, I appreciate that I can be 60 feet away and not have to worry about walking all the way over to deal with the pin before hitting my approach putt. I'm a stickler about playing by the rules—it's the only way to have a consistent baseline by which to measure improvement—and this change makes it easier to do that without "going through motions" for niggling compliance.




    Which is it, does it slow play down or not? If it takes no significant time to pull/put the pin in, then there wouldn't be a need for the rule change, and you wouldn't have a problem with your 60 foot putt and dealing with the pin.



    If it does take time, then groups who have players who make it a game of musical chairs of who wants it in or out will slow things down.
  • Swisstrader98Swisstrader98 Members Posts: 3,531 ✭✭

    Sounds like the whole pin in/out option could actually slow the game down. Half the guys in the foursome will want it in; half will want it out.


    This one makes me chuckle. Here's the deal:



    You've got 4 guys on the green. The guy who is closest should always be in charge of the flagstick anyway.



    Three guys are gonna putt before he gets to putt. He can tend/remove/replace the pin as necessary for those guys and then set it up however he likes for his own putt.



    It takes no significant time to do this.



    Another point I'd like to make is identifying the precise type of putt where the pin provides a significant advantage—where you roll it just inside the left or right lip.



    When the ball starts to dip into the cup—you know, just before the dreaded horseshoe miss—the pin pinches it a little bit and often keeps the ball in the hole rather than letting it ring out.



    Of course, it's not all benefit with no cost. Any putts hit too strong but right at the center are likely to hit the pin and refuse to drop, but those same putts might have rammed into the back of the hole and plopped in if the pin were not present.



    Finally, I think it's massively hyperbolic to say this rule change "makes the game easier." The reality is this:
    • Simpler for singles trying to post a handicapped round
    • Simpler for dgaf types and people with mobility issues who seek to reduce movement
    • Gives the player one more strategic option around the greens


    I don't have any expectations about improved pace of play or anything along those lines. Dudes have a knack for turning 3 hour loops into 4:15 slogs, and the only way that's ever gonna change is if they stop playing "recreational golf."



    Personally, I appreciate that I can be 60 feet away and not have to worry about walking all the way over to deal with the pin before hitting my approach putt. I'm a stickler about playing by the rules—it's the only way to have a consistent baseline by which to measure improvement—and this change makes it easier to do that without "going through motions" for niggling compliance.




    Just the length of your post makes me believe that flag in/flag out rule will definitely slow play.
  • jekatojekato Members Posts: 90
    Londoner wrote:

    jekato wrote:


    Might be easier hitting something above the ground than trying to roll a ball into a hole in the ground, or so I've heard.




    What????




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  • hybrid25hybrid25 michiganMembers Posts: 1,558 ✭✭


    Sounds like the whole pin in/out option could actually slow the game down. Half the guys in the foursome will want it in; half will want it out.


    This one makes me chuckle. Here's the deal:



    You've got 4 guys on the green. The guy who is closest should always be in charge of the flagstick anyway.



    Three guys are gonna putt before he gets to putt. He can tend/remove/replace the pin as necessary for those guys and then set it up however he likes for his own putt.



    It takes no significant time to do this.



    Another point I'd like to make is identifying the precise type of putt where the pin provides a significant advantage—where you roll it just inside the left or right lip.



    When the ball starts to dip into the cup—you know, just before the dreaded horseshoe miss—the pin pinches it a little bit and often keeps the ball in the hole rather than letting it ring out.



    Of course, it's not all benefit with no cost. Any putts hit too strong but right at the center are likely to hit the pin and refuse to drop, but those same putts might have rammed into the back of the hole and plopped in if the pin were not present.



    Finally, I think it's massively hyperbolic to say this rule change "makes the game easier." The reality is this:
    • Simpler for singles trying to post a handicapped round
    • Simpler for dgaf types and people with mobility issues who seek to reduce movement
    • Gives the player one more strategic option around the greens


    I don't have any expectations about improved pace of play or anything along those lines. Dudes have a knack for turning 3 hour loops into 4:15 slogs, and the only way that's ever gonna change is if they stop playing "recreational golf."



    Personally, I appreciate that I can be 60 feet away and not have to worry about walking all the way over to deal with the pin before hitting my approach putt. I'm a stickler about playing by the rules—it's the only way to have a consistent baseline by which to measure improvement—and this change makes it easier to do that without "going through motions" for niggling compliance.




    Just the length of your post makes me believe that flag in/flag out rule will definitely slow play.
    sorry I don't see it that way, I think it will be a good rule and convenience.
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,582 ClubWRX

    Sounds like the whole pin in/out option could actually slow the game down. Half the guys in the foursome will want it in; half will want it out.


    This one makes me chuckle. Here's the deal:



    You've got 4 guys on the green. The guy who is closest should always be in charge of the flagstick anyway.



    Three guys are gonna putt before he gets to putt. He can tend/remove/replace the pin as necessary for those guys and then set it up however he likes for his own putt.



    It takes no significant time to do this.



    Another point I'd like to make is identifying the precise type of putt where the pin provides a significant advantage—where you roll it just inside the left or right lip.



    When the ball starts to dip into the cup—you know, just before the dreaded horseshoe miss—the pin pinches it a little bit and often keeps the ball in the hole rather than letting it ring out.



    Of course, it's not all benefit with no cost. Any putts hit too strong but right at the center are likely to hit the pin and refuse to drop, but those same putts might have rammed into the back of the hole and plopped in if the pin were not present.



    Finally, I think it's massively hyperbolic to say this rule change "makes the game easier." The reality is this:
    • Simpler for singles trying to post a handicapped round
    • Simpler for dgaf types and people with mobility issues who seek to reduce movement
    • Gives the player one more strategic option around the greens


    I don't have any expectations about improved pace of play or anything along those lines. Dudes have a knack for turning 3 hour loops into 4:15 slogs, and the only way that's ever gonna change is if they stop playing "recreational golf."



    Personally, I appreciate that I can be 60 feet away and not have to worry about walking all the way over to deal with the pin before hitting my approach putt. I'm a stickler about playing by the rules—it's the only way to have a consistent baseline by which to measure improvement—and this change makes it easier to do that without "going through motions" for niggling compliance.


    Since you cannot legally post rounds when playing by yourself the rule change doesn't really apply other than a warm fuzzy feeling that you are adhering to the new rule when playing alone.
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  • TerpFangolferTerpFangolfer Members Posts: 584 ✭✭
    For me, best guess is out, the same as when I have it out now - and in for any distance that I now have it tended (generally 40' barring unusual slope).



    Only caveat could be for the shorter, but "slick" downhiller, as others have said...
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  • hoselrockerhoselrocker Members Posts: 50 ✭✭
    Is there anything stopping golf courses from taking the decision out of your hands and having flag sticks permanently stuck in the cup? Or, removing the idea of a hole altogether and having the flag stuck in the ground with some kind of markings the same dimension as the hole? Just messing with your heads...
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭


    Is there anything stopping golf courses from taking the decision out of your hands and having flag sticks permanently stuck in the cup? Or, removing the idea of a hole altogether and having the flag stuck in the ground with some kind of markings the same dimension as the hole? Just messing with your heads...






    That would be a good way to get the whole cup pulled out. They just slip into the ground you know. No cement. Lol
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  • LondonerLondoner Members Posts: 1,167 ✭✭
    Sounds like the whole pin in/out option could actually slow the game down. Half the guys in the foursome will want it in; half will want it out.
    This one makes me chuckle. Here's the deal: You've got 4 guys on the green. The guy who is closest should always be in charge of the flagstick anyway. Three guys are gonna putt before he gets to putt. He can tend/remove/replace the pin as necessary for those guys and then set it up however he likes for his own putt. It takes no significant time to do this. Another point I'd like to make is identifying the precise type of putt where the pin provides a significant advantage—where you roll it just inside the left or right lip. When the ball starts to dip into the cup—you know, just before the dreaded horseshoe miss—the pin pinches it a little bit and often keeps the ball in the hole rather than letting it ring out. Of course, it's not all benefit with no cost. Any putts hit too strong but right at the center are likely to hit the pin and refuse to drop, but those same putts might have rammed into the back of the hole and plopped in if the pin were not present. Finally, I think it's massively hyperbolic to say this rule change "makes the game easier." The reality is this:
    • Simpler for singles trying to post a handicapped round
    • Simpler for dgaf types and people with mobility issues who seek to reduce movement
    • Gives the player one more strategic option around the greens
    I don't have any expectations about improved pace of play or anything along those lines. Dudes have a knack for turning 3 hour loops into 4:15 slogs, and the only way that's ever gonna change is if they stop playing "recreational golf." Personally, I appreciate that I can be 60 feet away and not have to worry about walking all the way over to deal with the pin before hitting my approach putt. I'm a stickler about playing by the rules—it's the only way to have a consistent baseline by which to measure improvement—and this change makes it easier to do that without "going through motions" for niggling compliance.
    Since you cannot legally post rounds when playing by yourself the rule change doesn't really apply other than a warm fuzzy feeling that you are adhering to the new rule when playing alone.




    I enjoy a warm fuzzy feeling. image/swoon.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':swoon:' />
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